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E121/E106, Maybe A Strange Question


Grecian
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Does anybody know, if we move to France and obtain healthcare cover via my wife's E121, obtained due to her being in receipt of long-term incapacity benefit, and for any reason in the future the benefit is stopped, would she/we then from the moment the E121 ceased, be entitled to obtain an E106 for upto 2 years further cover?

I ask the question due to the current situation regarding future inactifs moving to France, and as it seems both the government and opposition think all recipients of incapacity benefit are all scroungers, and should all go back to work down the mines.

If her E121 was stopped, and we were able to obtain an E106, at least this would give us some breathing space to work out our next move.

As I said maybe a strange question.

 

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What the original question suggests sounds impossible in practice. E106 in Britain is granted to those who have a full NI contribution record in the preceding period - i.e. those who work. E121 in this case (invalidity benefit) is granted to those who cannot work.
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Will, the issue could be that although unfit to work by reason of their incapacity, their NI contributions will be paid by the state and as E106s are issued on previous year's contributions, it is possibly possible, hence the suggestion about the DWP.

BaF, I have a deal of sympathy with your view, especially as in the UK, the other half's income would be taken into account if they were working where other benefits and support were concerned.  Therefore if you are in receipt of IB in the UK, and your OH earned a decent enough salary, you would not be entitled to other benefits because of the IB - but as soon as you get the E121 the whole thing changes and they are. 

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woolybanana

My wife says she would prefere a treacle mine, as opposed to a coal mine!

Tony

The thought has crossed my mind to contact Newcastle, but the way things are at the moment, I don't want to go putting thoughts into their heads.

BAF

To your statement I would say: 'why not'.

I personally don't think it right that anyone entering the UK, who has paid zilch in NI contributions, is allowed to draw benefits from day one, but I guess that is life.

Will

My wife paid full NI contributions for over 20 years, up until her accident at work, which has wrecked her back for life. Also she gets NI credits due to her being on IB, so she has a full record as regards to her NI contributions. Likewise I also have a full record.

 

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After much confusion with OH's E106, it turns out he was sent an E121 in 2005 which we never received.  He phoned DWP and they confirmed this and also asked him if he had any dependents to go on it.  So I am now registered on his E121 as a dependent.  The new form came yesterday which confirms me as a dependent.

He is receiving his E121 because of "long term" Incapacity Benefit due to being unfit to work.  Now, some may say they he will have to be re-assessed in France, but others say that if he is on "long term" IB, then this is not the case so the E121 stands and he should not lose it. 

Tony F, I would check your wife's IB paperwork and if it confirms she is "long term" IB on the E121, then she should not lose it.  I would also check the paperwork to see if it confirms that you are on it as a dependent and if not, get your wife to ring DWP to ask the question.  If they agree to it, they will need your NI number to confirm the details.  Unfortuntely, they would not answer your questions if you were to ring, so best if your wife does it.

Jan

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Jan, I'm not sure what you're talking about but I don't need to do any of those things because I have my own E121 - I was responding to somebody else, my OH has her own E121 as she's over retirement age.  And don't assume that he wont be re-assessed now you're in France, the recent changes in UK - not French - legislation and the UK government's clamp down on IB claimants does not mean that it's money until retirement, he most certainly can be reassessed here and you may loose the IB at some stage in the future, whether long-term or not. 

Grecian, same old urban myths - the majority of people going to England DO NOT get these benefits from day one - the UK actually excludes almost more EU people from benefits etc than any the other EU countries as we've discussed here many times previously.

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[quote user="cheryla"]My understanding was that to qualify for an E106 there had to be sufficient paid NI contributions in the preceeding two tax years (ie credited NI  didn't count)[/quote]

Which was my understanding as well - clearly we are both wrong. [;-)]

 

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Suninfrance many thanks for your reply, even though you aimed it at Tony!

At the moment we still live in the UK, we have sold our house and are in rented accommodation, thinking hard about the move to France, so obviously my wife does not have an E121 at the moment. She has phoned DWP and they have confirmed that she is entitled to one, and I can be added as a dependent. She has recently had to fill in an IB50 form regarding her current medical situation, and they have accepted this, and have told her she will be reassed in 5 years time. At the moment things would seem fine, even with the proposed/imminent changes to the French healthcare system, but with both the government and the opposition making noises about getting people off IB and back into work, the picture is somewhat clouded. The benefit changes its name next year, along with proposed changes aimed at stopping people getting onto IB in the first place, supposedly existing claimants will not be affected, until funds become available to 'attack' all IB claimants. So I think the fact that your OH is on long term IB may not preclude him from being reassed in the future, I think it is best to be warned of anything that may come your way, rather than not knowing.

cheryla good point you make about paid for NI contributions, as opposed to credited NI contributions, I must admit I hadn't thought of that, I will make a phone call to DWP as to how we would stand regarding an E106 and credited NI contributions. As I said in the title of the thread, maybe a strange original question, but with the current situation prevailing, I am investigating all avenues at the moment.

 

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

 I pose this question.

If one of the couple is unable to work and received an E121 which basically means cover for health care up to 70% in France why should the other half,perfectly fit, receive the same benefit

Seems unfair to me

[/quote]

But they do, it happens all the time, I know loads of people who are totally fit and healthy who pay no health charges because the other half has a work related IB, mostly teachers for some reason.

 I find it bizzare and scandulous that you can develop a stress related illness, leave the job that caused it, get IB, move to France and then don't work and lay by the pool all day and pay nothing for you or O/Hs  healthcare, marvellous, whilst others who have serious illnesses get nothing and will have to pay for their healthcare or leave France.

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This is the main text from a reply by DWP

It's the best explaination of the entitlement to E106 I've seen.

Particularly the example given

Form E106 is issued where a non-employed

person transfers their residence to another EC country, but has

'residual' entitlement to Incapacity Benefit - Short Term (IBST).

'Residual' entitlement means that the contributions conditions

governing the award of Incapacity Benefit are satisfied and if the

customer had remained in the UK and claimed benefit that benefit would

be payable. The duration of E106 cover equates to the duration of IBST

had the person claimed the benefit.

E106 entitlement is awarded in line with

'Benefit Years' which run from the first Sunday of January to the

Saturday prior to the first Sunday of January the following year.  We

investigate the National Insurance (NI) contributions record of the 3

complete tax years prior to the Benefit Year in which a person leaves

the UK. If those tax years show sufficient NI contributions E106

entitlement is given to the end of the Benefit Year in which the person

leaves the UK.  When entitlement is established this way we would look

to extend this by considering contributions paid in later tax years.  I

have set out below an example to illustrate this.

A person leaves the UK on 1 July 2007 to

reside in another EC country.  The person worked for an employer paying

earnings related Class 1 NI contributions and ceased working on 30 June

2007. The 3 complete tax years prior to the current Benefit Year are

those running from 6 April 2003 to 5 April 2006. Sufficient NI

contributions were paid in those tax years giving initial entitlement

to 5 January 2008 (end of the current Benefit Year). Sufficient NI

contributions have also been paid in the 2006/2007 tax year to extend

the E106 cover to the end of the next Benefit Year which is 3 January

2009.  If, in addition, the person had earned enough (approximately

£4,350) to pay sufficient NI contributions from 6 April 2007 to

finishing work on 30 June 2007 the E106 cover would extend to 2 January

2010. This would give total entitlement from 1 July 2007 to 2 January

2010.  It would not be possible to extend the cover beyond this point

as NI contributions would need to be paid in the next tax year, which

would not be possible as the person would by then have finished working

and would have left the UK.

Forms E106 are issued under Article 19.1(a) of EC Regulation 1408/71.

Please notice that the DWP don't assume you will be inactive, just that you have no job lined up. They clearly allow for people to take up work or start a business

Back to Plan B,

Joshua, No longer with a Smile
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For those in France receiving Long Term Incapacity Benefit and with an E121 - you will be re-assessed in France at your local CPAM by a French doctor at some point.

I was re-assessed 18 months ago and a friend of ours just two weeks ago. It is perfectly straightforward, the questionaire is in French and English and the doctor sends it all off to the UK. You receive a notification from the UK first to say you will have to go for a medical and then the French authorities contact you at some point to make an appointment.

Those people who receive an E121 do not get ALL health care free, we still have to pay towards dental costs (varies depending on level of top up) and most of the cost of glasses as does the spouse who is covered on the E121. And also the spouse is only covered by the 70% or 65% reimbursement and so a "top up" is necessary and has to be paid for.

In our case we both have a top up policy.

 

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Hi,  When you were reassessed,  did the doctor have good english?   How long will you have to wait to know if your situation has changed.  Was the interview with the french doctor similiar to the english situation?  I am waiting for my E121 to arrive.  I applied for it in October and then I was told it will arrive in 6 weeks.  With all the changes in the system I have not chased it.

I presume the E121 will be sent to my french address.

 

I have been looking at a top up policy but cannot do anything until I receive my E121

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi

My medical was at Limoges at the doctor spoke English and she said at the end of the appointment "it is ok - you cannot work - I will tell England" and about 2 weeks later I received a letter from the UK to say I would be reassessed  in 2011.

Our friend who went to Perigueux for his medica, and I went with him because I speak French and he has only been here 12 months and did not feel his French was strong enough, anyway the doctor there did not speak any English at all, but said that it was ok and he had nothing to worry about.

Our friend said that the medical here in France was alot better than the English one, easier and more straightforward.

So I think for the reassessment it all depends where you live as to whether they speak English or not.

Our E121 was sent to our French address when we moved and we have always found Newscastle very helpful.

We did not take a top up policy when we first arrived in France but following my husbands heart attack took one up then and it has paid for itself time and again.

If you want to know anything else just ask.

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Shane and others ..........

An E121 has nothing to do with the level of assistance you get towards healthcare costs in France.  The E121 is issued in the UK and means (a) you are unfit for work because of a health problem and you are in receipt of IB or (b) you have reached statutory retirement age.

After arriving in France, you have to make a case to your GP for the 100% cover, who will then almost certainly refer you to a specialist, who will, in turn, then fill in the appropriate forms for CPAM to make a case for you to obtain 100% health care cover.  However, you do not get 100% of everything, you get 100% of the costs of treating the condition/s that you have of 'longe duree' of which there is a fairly flexible list.

Therefore if you break a leg, have appendicitis, need an arm transplant and if those conditions are not directly related to the original condition, you have to use the 70% state and 30% top up provisions.

100% does NOT mean 100% of everything as Shane's posting seems to indicate and certainly means more than dental care etc.

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Sorry but that has not been the case for me. I have arthritis and have never had to justify my case to my doctor in France and it is not on the list of the 30 or so health problems which allows 100%. I have been with our doctor for 5 years. When we first registered with the CPAM the attestation stated 100% and I had not yet seen a doctor at that point.

I have always recived 100% for any doctors treatment, pills etc for everything including an operation for Thyroid removal and the subsequent medication.

My physio is covered 100%, blood tests, a visit to a specialist was 100%, x rays 100%.

My husband who had the heart attack and is included on my E121 however gets 100% for any treatment for that but for other things then he gets 70% or 65% and the top picks up the rest.

I am not saying you are wrong Tony just that this is our case.

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I'd like to know by what criteria  being "unable to work" is judged.  As many jobs now involve sitting at PCs all day does it mean cannot do the job that they had or did, or is unable to do any work at all.  I know that there are many who are totally, through constant pain or risk to their lives, unable to do any work but equally there are quite a few I know and I'm sure that others know, who could well work and do so on their own houses and its a case of being unable to work because they now live in France, whilst subbing the income with IB and free healthcare.  In my old comapny a poor man lost his legs in an accident but it dod not stop him working at a desk, how many do you know on IB who could quite easily man a checkout or do a desk based job?  Is an assessment in France really the best determination of being able to work?  Is there any incentive for a French doctor to turn down IB? Surely it just means another UK citizen's healthcare is paid for by the UK doesn't it?

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Tony - yes our GP is brilliant, saved my husbands life literally and diagnosed a medical condition which I did not know I had which resulted in surgery. Why I get 100% I do not know but it would not have mattered had I not as we have the top up anyway.

Ron Avery - when on Incapacity Benefit there is a very strict criteria to judge whether someone is "unable to work". It is based on a points system and when you have a medical in France they use they same system. The medical is very thorough, many questions, full medical examination and you have to provide medical evidence ie x rays, hospital reports, blood test results etc.

Personally I was unable to work well before we came to France, following 25 years of employment with the same company in a professional position. I was not aware that I could bring IB to France until 2 weeks before we left the UK when I informed the Benefit Office that we were moving and they told me.

If I was still in the UK I would still be getting free health care and would not be paying a top up policy - would I not? Incapacity Benefit is my entitlement as a result of 25 years of NI contributions which in itself is an insurance which entitles you to certain benefits.

Also if still in the UK I would imagine I would have reduced council tax and other benefits which I could claim for. Here I do not get any such assistance and neither do I expect it.

And actually I would much sooner have the few thousand pounds a year from my previous employment than the few euros a month I do receive in benefit.

I too have known people who have "fiddled" their way in to the Incapacity Benefit system but I have faith (fool I may be) that they will be found out eventually to the benefit of those of us who are genuine.

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Quting from Shane

Also if still in the UK I would imagine I would have reduced council

tax and other benefits which I could claim for. Here I do not get any

such assistance and neither do I expect it.

You don't state what your incapacity is (and no, I don't want to know) but if you are able to satisfy the rather strict rules for obtaining a French Carte d'Invalidité you will find that there are some (not many) additional benefits which become available to you.

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Hi Benjamin Thanks for that, I have looked at this and am just under the 80% to qualify for the card but they said that as the medical problem will only get worse they now have a dossier and it is just a matter of re-applying. They did award a priority card in the meantime which means not having to wait in a que, priority seating etc which is very handy.
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