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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

If the instructions did not go out until last Friday then possibly they had not arrived at CPAM,s  on the Monday,and even if they had perhaps the staff have not been fully briefed yet.

Perhaps another attempt towards the end of the week would bring a better result.

It does take time for important changes to filter down in any country. 

[/quote]This is one of the reasons why CLEISS are the better bet at the moment - for urgent problems.  Contacting your CPAM before their ducks are in a row may just bring more frustration all around. 

I have received a personal letter from the Ambassador today and for your information, this is the pertinent paragraph:

"We have asked for the French Government's decision to be implemented as soon and as consistently as possible.  If even after presenting the Minister's letter, people still encounter difficulties at local level, the French Health Minstry has advised us that they should refer their individual cases to the CLEISS."

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It would be fair to say that very few people are getting a positive response from anywhere.  The worry is that the December statement has been in force now for approaching two months, and is not being implemented (as you discovered yourself).  The new statement to CPAMs only alters the ruling for E106 holders - existing CMU subscribers should not have been having problems for weeks!  As you know, we understand that this was the result of internal disputes between CNAM and the Ministry.  Unless CLEISS are informed of all the individual cases, the Ministry will assume that things are happening - when they are not.  Whilst I realise that bureaucracy takes a while to work - and in that I fully agree, rushing to your CPAM every day is probably counter-productive - what really IS important is that somebody in authority at the ministry, realises that there continue to be problems.  For that reason, it is important to contact CLEISS so that they appreciate the extent of the problem.

Likewise, please continue to report these to us (pm me with details) so I can pass the info' on to the Embassy, and post on Jim Murphy's blog:

http://blogs.fco.gov.uk/blogs/jim_murphy/archive/2008/02/01/16034.aspx

Whilst I applaud everybody's attempts to allow the authorities to sort out the most urgent cases first (and at CPAM level this is most critical), I also believe it is dangerous to assume that this will just happen if one sits back and waits.  History tells a quite different story.

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We are E106 January expirees.  We have today received a letter from CPAM AGEN dated 8 February rejecting our application to join CMU.  Text of the letter below (verbatim within the quotes):

"Je vous informe qu'après examen de votre demande, il apparaît que vous ne pouvez être affilié auprès de la Caisse Primaire.

Votre situation personnelle n'entre pas dans le cadre prévu pour bénéficier de la couverture maladie universelle (CMU).

Vous devez en conséquence vous adressez à l'organisme privé de votre choix en France ou à l'étranger pour bénéficier d'une protection d'assurance maladie.

Les textes prévoient en effet que pour bénéficier du droit à résidence sur le territoire français suffisantes à votre arrivée en France.

SERVICE P.R.A.S.S.

Article 23 de la loi No. 2006-911 du 24 juillet 2006 du code l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile:  Dans son art. L121-1 (paragraphe 2 )"

NOT MUCH TRICKLING DOWN HERE THEN.

 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

It would be fair to say that very few people are getting a positive response from anywhere.  The worry is that the December statement has been in force now for approaching two months, and is not being implemented (as you discovered yourself).  The new statement to CPAMs only alters the ruling for E106 holders - existing CMU subscribers should not have been having problems for weeks!  As you know, we understand that this was the result of internal disputes between CNAM and the Ministry.  Unless CLEISS are informed of all the individual cases, the Ministry will assume that things are happening - when they are not.  Whilst I realise that bureaucracy takes a while to work - and in that I fully agree, rushing to your CPAM every day is probably counter-productive - what really IS important is that somebody in authority at the ministry, realises that there continue to be problems.  For that reason, it is important to contact CLEISS so that they appreciate the extent of the problem.

.

[/quote]

 

According to your own website the December statement was delayed and never reached CPAM,s ,well that is according to the Dutch Embassy

Paris, january 30 2008.

The Dutch embassy has received messages from Dutch citizens who are currently insured via CMU, still didn’t receive a message from the CPAM, that the letter stating that their insurance would end effective april 1st 2008, has been withdrawn. Furthermore it became clear that many CPAM’s aren’t aware of the fact that a letter with this content is underway.

The embassy contacted the management of the Securité Sociale in Paris. They have pointed out that after releasing the statement about the retroactivity of the new regulation, still a question remained about a certain group of British citizens living in France, which had caused a delay in their briefing towards the CPAM’s. These matters seems to have been cleared and the CPAM’s will be advised shortly.

The management of the Securité Sociale has asked the Dutch embassy once again to ensure the Dutch citizens living in France, that the regulation as stated on their website shows the current situation and that they don’t have to worry.

 

It seems that the Securiy social are giving you different info from that they are giving to the Dutch.

If the statement by the Dutch is true then the only statement that CPAM,s will now be in receipt of is the one on the Securite Social website of 8th Febuary and that will therefor take some time to filter down

I wonder just how many if any CPAM,s have so far implemented the rules.I know you state that 2 or 3 have but is it just that they are accepting applications because it is the line or least resistance when faced with irate anglais thrusting printouts from the internet at them.The only way to be sure and certain that one is in CMU is to receive the attestation. from CPAM.

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There still appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the position here.

As BaF says, the only instructions the CPAM will have received are the original one saying 'all out' and Friday's saying 'all back in'.  The December revision which permitted people to remain in the CMU was held back by the DSS because of the unresolved situation regarding the E106 holders.   That means that every application or appeal so far has been correctly rejected because as far as the CPAMs are concerned, that has been the official position up until Friday. 

It's not the CPAMs who are to blame for the delays - it's the DSS, and they are fully aware of what is happening. If CLEISS have been given the incorrect impression that individual CPAMs are refusing to implement the rules, then I think we're going to end up with a lot of egg on our face.  In fact, I'm surprised that CLEISS aren't aware of the communication situation - the Dutch Embassy asked the DSS about it, so why haven't they?

Once the Friday update has been disseminated through local CPAM staff procedures, the letters will come spewing forth.  Some CPAMs have already kicked off...

 

 

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Hi There,

My name is emily Stein and I am working for the current affairs department at the BBC in London. I am really keen to speak to expats to find out more on how expats loosing healthcare situation in France is affecting people. If you wouldn't mind having a chat with me please email me   Feel free to forward this email on to anyone you think may be interested.. Big thankyou..

Post edited by mod, please use the forum email system to contact Emily

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[quote user="Mel"]

Hi Emily,

I will be pleased to talk to you.

I have emailed you with a perspective on the situation that many researchers have overlooked.

I look forward to hearing from you...

Mel

[/quote]

 

Any chance you would let us in on the 'secret' of what has been missed?

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Thanks Cooperlola for your posting of the 13/2......my friend phoned CLEISS and was told to send an e-mail to their legal dept. To date she hasn't had a reply but I expect they have a mountain of work!! In the meantime she phoned the English speaking help-line who confirmed that she could join CPAM. They sent her very promptly some more forms and suggested she sent everything to La Rochelle. As she didn't want to post Birth or Marriage certs we went over there yesterday. The main office which she had the address to send things to wouldn't help and suggested we went to 1 of 3 CPAM offices. We picked the one in the City centre and found a very helpfuly young lady. Initially she said that we had to go to Saintes but when we explained the reception that we had had there she agreed to deal with it for us. The outcome is that all forms completed and all copies of paperwork taken. We were advised that she should receive an Attestation in 3 weeks!!......and for a bonus she told us that she would be able to claim for the medical expenses that she had paid since her E106 expired.

We'll see what happens.

aj

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[quote user="Mel"]

Interesting that Emily Stein who posted on here and emailed me direct, has not had the good manners to reply to the detailed reponse I sent her. Not even, "Thanks, but no thanks...".

Sadly, there are many journalists who do not have good manners...

[/quote]Some have, some haven't..

Emily has not responded to me either.  I guess it wasn't that important then...

AJ-DR: So glad you're sorted.  Things are getting better every day, glad to say.

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[quote user="Mel"]

Hi Deb,

I agree - in fact, some of my best friends are journalists - but there are a few of them who could do with a spell at charm school!

Mel

[/quote]I can't moan too much as I'm going to be a journo' myself next weekend.  Unpaid, but then I get into the Paul Ricard circuit for LMS testing, so who's complaining?
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Mel,

It is not just a question of affordability, as regardless of how much cash you have it does not appear that there are any private medical insurance policies available that meet the comprehensive requirements of the French authorities, if you are over the age of fifty and have any pre-existing conditions, no matter how minor.

Even if you do not have any pre-existing medical conditions,  all the private medical insurance policies I am aware of only cover acute conditions and if you therefore develop a chronic illness after the policy has been taken out, you will only be covered for the diagnosis and initial treatment. For example, a friend of mine developed diabetes, but the ongoing treatment he now requires for the rest of his life is not covered under his long standing top of the line private medical insurance, as it is defined as a chronic condition.  

Other countries require early retirees moving there to have private medical insurance, so as not to be a burden on the state. However, I don't believe that the policies have to be so comprehensive as the French requirements. As the costs of visiting a local French doctor for a common ailment is not expensive, it is probably more cost effective to pay it youself anyway, rather than cover GP visits under an insurance policy.

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I spoke to Larry Fulton of Exclusive Healthcare about this very subject, Sprogster.  He is working to try to get the regulations on insurance requirements relaxed, as - as you say - they are mad really.  In effect, they prevent any person with a chornic illness (however controllable, and however cheap to treat) from retiring early to France now.  It is something which FHI is looking at too, now that the situation for those already here is becoming much clearer and easier.

I cannot really believe that it was intended to stop these people from living here - but that's what the legislation does.  Or perhaps this is the point, as maybe these are the people who might be perceived as the most likely to indulge in "health tourism"?

EDIT : In the case of somebody like your friend Sprogster, if a chronic condition is developed after the move (and is therefore classified as being unforseeable at the time of the move) which thus prevents them from getting the comprehensive insurance required, they may then join CMU under the "accident de vie" provisions of the new rules.

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I wonder how many Brits have been caught in the trap of planning  ( and been financialy committed) to move to France only to find that the new laws will stop them doing so.

 In our case we signed in September with a large building company to construct our new house in Bittany only to find we now cannot live in it as we are both taking early retirement and I have a heart condition so insurance is out of the question. We had planned to part fund our new french home by the sale of our UK house (as we were going to move full time to France) but now will also need a UK home.

The builders will not let us out of the contract unless we pay them 25% on the build cost,( the house has not yet been started) so now we are having to build the house that we cannot live in. We are now resigned to selling in once it is completed.

I am  supprised that there has not been more postings with similar stories. 

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I suppose, derjac, it is because people do not visit fora like these until they are further down the planning route that we have not heard more stories like yours.  Also, I don't believe that the UK press coverage has yet really grasped this particular trap very well - and that many still do not realise the implications of what has been happening here recently.  We asked the Minister some months ago, when this all started, to consider those who are financially commited to living here, even though not actually resident.  As you can imagine, she was unsympathetic.

FHI is holding a meeting (in early April) to finalise our plans for the future.  We believe that there is still much that you can do, not least via the EU commission, who continue to indicate that they are asking the French government to justify its interpretation of the regulations, even now.  Europe, however, grinds slowly - even when compared to the time its taken to get things sorted thus far!

You can resign yourself to selling, or you can continue to question the legislation. Your choice, but we are happy to help and give you some pointers as to how you might proceed.  After our meeting, we will completely re-vamp our website, to reflect the needs of future users - in particular those who are planning to move but cannot now do so.

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Many thanks for the response Cooperlola, We will have to see how things develop, but as you can imagine we are very dissapointed in how things have tuned out through no fault of our own. To cap it all the cost of the house has risen by £20k since signing due the exchange rate but that was a risk we knew about !!
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Something along these lines might be happening -

I was talking yesterday to a lady from Spain, they moved a few years ago, and during the winter they thought the teenage son had broken his foot, it cost them 300euros at hospital, but I understand they have no insurance at all! This however has still not made them want to come back to the UK. Luckily the lad had not broken his foot - that charge was simply for one hospital visit to find out plus x-ray.

They say there are loads of Brits out in Spain that simply pay for health care as they need it, can this be done in France - long term wise I would think not. Sprog has epilepsy. In the Uk the meds are free, being a long term condition. But I think we would have to pay in France. Keppra and Lamictal are both expensive drugs, so at present things are on hold whilst we research more.

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You may be allowed to do that in Spain, Keni, but not here.  Unless you can prove you have comprehensive insurance which covers all things which the state would (ie docs, medicines, eye care, teeth - even maternity!!!! ), you cannot legally come to live here, unless you work or are at UK state retirement age, or covered by an E form (such as a 106 or a 121 granted because you receive UK incapacity benefit).  That is the big catch.[:@]
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Just to give you some more info.  Here are the new residency rules for "inactifs"

Inactifs 

Les "inactifs" (retraités et autres personnes sans activités), qui ont établi leur résidence habituelle en France depuis moins de cinq ans, peuvent demander une carte de séjour "CE - non actif". 

La durée de validité de la carte dépend de la pérennité des ressources présentées. Dans tous les cas, elle ne peut dépasser cinq ans. 

Doivent être fournis les justificatifs suivants : 

  • un titre d'identité ou un passeport en cours de validité, 

  • une attestation d'assurance maladie-maternité offrrant un certain nombre de prestations, 

  • les documents justifiant de ressources suffisantes pour le demandeur et, le cas échéant, pour les membres de sa famille. 

 

And HERE are the insurance requirements.  If you have a chronic condition, it is impossible to comply with them, as no company will offer such a policy, even if one could afford it.

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Cooperlola

thank you for that - but do you know what epilepsy is classified as in France? For example I would think that no-one would offer our daughter medical insurance as she will most probably always have epilepsy. Here in the Uk I am her carer, for want of a better word, although she is over 19, she will always need someone around her. If she were to move to France with us, I cannot find out yet if I can claim her meds for her or if they are chargeable. Can my husband and I get an E121 for looking after her? As yet no-one can offer me that information. Is she classified as disabled in France? She did not ask to have epilepsy, but it does not stop her wanting to have a normal life.

 

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I just wanted to let you know that my husband went into CPAM in Cahors today (26/2/08), and was told that we are now in the CMU (expired E106 holders).  Hooray! [:D]

So with much relief we would like to thank everyone concerned for the advice, the lobbying and all the useful information.  [B]

Hopefully he will not have to wait too long to get his surgery re-scheduled.

Regards,

busybee

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