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Incapacity Benefit


bixy
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I wonder if someone can help with this. A friend is on Incapacity Benefit. He is anxious that if he moves to France he will lose this but my researches tend me to think that in fact this benefit will be continued to be paid while he is resident in France. I also understand that being in receipt of this benefit will entitle him to a E121 [he is under state pension age]. Furthermore he would be entitled to 100% reimbursement rather than the usual 70%. Am I right in all this - I wouldn't like to mislead him? It would be good to hear from someone who is in that situation themselves.

Patrick

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This has been well covered here and TonyF is the expert.

Yes he should get an E121

On the 100% issue, AFAIK no, you are not covered 100% simply for being on incapacity benefit. Just like everyone else you would have to get your qualifying ailment, or ailments, registered via your French doctor.

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Just to expand a little on AnOther's response.

My knowledge is historical but Incapacity Benefit always used to be exportable to other EU countries (and Switzerland?)  and I don't think that has changed. A quick 'phone call to Newcatle will confirm this.

Yes, your friend gets an E121 because of their UK incapacity which will also cover any dependants such as spouse and children. You will need to specifically ask for the E121 to name these dependants.

Being in receipt of UK Incapacity Benefit does not entitle you to 100% cover. If the reason for the incapacity is on the List of 30 (which is now around 34) you can, via your French doctor, apply for ALD (affection longue durée). If granted you are then reimbursed 100% but only for that particular ailment(s).

You can, via the Maison Départmentale des Personnes Handicapées (MDHP), apply for a French Carte d'Invalidité which then entitles you to 100% reimbursement (but not your E121 dependants) for most items. Two of these exceptions of which I know is the daily charge for a hospital stay (board and lodgings if you like) of somewhere around €17 and dispensed items which only ever carry a reimbursement of 35%.

You can however cover these exceptions via complementary insurance if you so chose.

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AnOther, you might be wrong on one count:

Bixy - he has to be on Long Term Incapacity Benefit. Long Term Incapacity Benefit, which to date, is still exportable and entitles him to an E121.

This E121 is the French equivalent of AAH (Allocation d'Adulte Handicape) and will give your friend 100% cover for all his healthcare, except for the daily hospital stay fee (forfait journalier).

This is the experience of someone close to me, so I assume it is the

same throughout France - but of course couldn't swear to it.

I see that Benjamin agrees with AnOther, and so both agree with each other.

It may change when your friend reaches retirement age, and therefore stops receiving Long Term Incapacity Benefit. The switchover from E121 from IB to E121 from UK state pension might mean that the person reverts to being covered for 70%, except for the condition which warranted IB before. This condition would be seen as an ALD, and he would get 100% cover for the healthcare pertaining to that medical condition.

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[quote user="Benjamin"]


Being in receipt of UK Incapacity Benefit does not entitle you to 100% cover. If the reason for the incapacity is on the List of 30 (which is now around 34) you can, via your French doctor, apply for ALD (affection longue durée). If granted you are then reimbursed 100% but only for that particular ailment(s)......


[/quote]

 

A comprehensive translated list of ALD's can be found HERE 

 

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AFAIK, 5-E is correct on this point - you do get 100% cover - it is not dependent upon your having an ALD.  However, ICB is subject to one's being considered incapable of working and if a medic' (French or English) decides that the recipient is capable of work at some point in the future then bang goes the ICB and bang goes the E121.  Under this scenario then it's private health insurance (probably impossible to get, let alone afford for somebody in this position) until five years are up.  ICB is also, I believe, going to be replaced by a new style benefit/allowance which may not allow the holder an automatic right to an E121.  Thus I would say take great care in making any assumptions and contact the DWP as suggested before making any drastic moves.
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Most of the above is correct BUT ..........

Long term incapacity benefit means you get an E121 is correct.

An E121 by reason of IB means you get 100% is incorrect.

The E121 for inactifs (under retirement age) with an E121 entitles you to the usual state reimburesments up to 70% the rest of which is made up with a mutuelle.

To get the 100% you need to have been signed off as needing that by your GP in France and CPAM accepting that.

IB remains a qualifying benefit for people wanting to claim DLA but the smart money is to claim DLA in the UK, DO NOT LEAVE IT UNTIL YOU GET TO FRANCE because it is now very clear that the DWP WILL be able to use the 26 week rule (past presence test) for people making new claims (rather than claims for reinstatement) after being in France for more than 26 weeks.  If you try to use a UK accomodation address you WILL be found out because you will be registered with a GP in France and you'll be on the E121 - simples!

The new benefit system is already in place and GB citizens on IB across the EU are getting forms asking them to have their host country GP certify that their condition has not changed and they are making it clear that even if you have been signed off work for life (old form IB5 I think) you are still subject to review now tho how they will apply that to people in Europe after the form is completed has yet to be seen.  But what Cooperlola says is correct, if your IB is subsequently withdrawn you WILL loose your entitlement to the E121 cover and if you have an ongoing condition, you will find that obtaining a 100% mutuelle which you legally need as an inactif will be virtually impossible.

The rule now with the changes in both French and British legislation is that making any assumptions and asking for guarantees from HMG at such a time of change would be very foolish and they are now making changes retrospective so what is 'safe' today may not be so 'safe' tomorrow.

Hope this helps and clarifies things.

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Very clear Tony.

Our approach of getting a carte d'invalidité issued in France would get around any chance of being re-classified by the UK authorities. Small point but I think worth doing.

 Anyone who is approaching UK state retirement age and has an E121 issued for incapacity would be well advised not to alert Newcastle on reaching that age as a new E121 will be issued changing your status from incapacity to retirement.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hi Bixy

Think the rules have suddenly changed, Incapacity in now on a point system ; completed in Uk on some software, Ive had long term incapcity benefit for along time and been in France for over 4 years with 100 percent health costs paid by Uk , not France ! My husband then piggy backed me and was able to have 75 percent free health care  costs ;;; this week , I received a letter saiyng I now suddenly only have 3 points and need 15 points to have incapacity benefit . they say its from a form I filled in, which havnt done for years ! But did have an examination from a French Dr in Tours as ordered by Newcastle,,, but a year ago;; so without no warning , I have a letter to say that incapacity is cancelled and I no loonger have health care paid by Uk ;; so looks as if I will have to sell up , return to Uk and go on Job seekers allowance !! so attention mes amis ![:(]

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[quote user="daffie"]  Ive had long term incapcity benefit for along time and been in France for over 4 years with 100 percent health costs paid by Uk , not France ! My husband then piggy backed me and was able to have 75 percent free health care  costs ;;; this week , I received a letter saiyng I now suddenly only have 3 points and need 15 points to have incapacity benefit . they say its from a form I filled in, which havnt done for years ! But did have an examination from a French Dr in Tours as ordered by Newcastle,,, but a year ago;; so without no warning , I have a letter to say that incapacity is cancelled and I no loonger have health care paid by Uk ;; so looks as if I will have to sell up , return to Uk and go on Job seekers allowance !! so attention mes amis ![:(]  [/quote]

Daffy, something doesn't add up here.  The new system for long-term IB wasn't introduced until April last year and it was well trailed for at least a year before the changes were implemented so this is nothing new, it's been discussed here several times.  The IB people started to send out new assessment letters to claimants, in the case of France an IB-N-50-France, last year and those letters are still in fact, being sent out.  The letter and form has to be filled in by the claimant and then has a section at the back to be filled in by your French GP, then the IB people in the UK will assess whether you should have a medical examination in France, after which they will make an assessment about continued payment of benefits.  You're saying that you haven't received this form, let alone had your GP fill in his/her section for you.

You also say HMG required you to have a medical examination prior to the new system coming into place and it appears that as they have not sent you the new France specific form, they were reviewing your case anyway and what they've then done is apply the new criteria to you, which they can do under the new rules.

What you need to do is to ring them immediately and tell them about the delays in receiving your letter, you must ask for more time to respond, hundreds/thousands of claimants are already doing this because of the delays in DWP letters arriving so it's not a problem for them.  You should also ask for a form IG-N-50-France so you can be assessed by your GP, not somebody you've never met and who has no ideas about your ongoing condition.  If they refuse that, you should lodge an appeal against the decision and ask for reinstatement of your benefit or for your benefit to be held in abayence until the appeals process is completed.

On a more general point, this shows how dangerous it is with HMG shifting the goalposts for people who move to an EU country to base their health care arrangements on a benefit/E121 issued to inactifs, one change in HMG's criteria and it all goes pop.

And as I've flagged up several times here and elsewhere, long-term IB is one of the very few gateway benefits for people wishing to claim DLA from the UK whilst living in the EU, so loss of IB could also mean the loss of the ability to claim IB for new claimants.

Edit:  From your other posting on this, you say that the examination in Tours was with a French doctor and in French as tho that was odd.  Sorry, what else do you expect, the letter currently being sent out is in French and English and the GPs across the board are replying in French.  Again, one of the problems with living in France is this happening - perhaps a translator would have been a good idea and checking in advance whether you would be able to have a meaningful conversation would have been a really good idea as loss of the benefit would have such a huge impact on your life here. 

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Daffie

You may fall into a category of inactives whose position has yet to be clarified.  I.E. those having E121 cover as a consequence of receiving UK Incapacity Benefit,  who were legally resident in France before 23rd November 2007 when the new French Residency laws came into effect.

The following is an excerpt from the French Health Issues website :

If your form E121 is withdrawn

If for any reason your form E121 is withdrawn, for example, because your lose your entitlement to UK disability benefit, then:

If you became resident in France after 23rd November 2007, upon the withdrawal of form E121 you will be obliged to obtain private health insurance until either you have been resident in France for five years, receive cover under a subsequent form E121 or are able to “piggy-back” onto a partner’s form E106 or E121.

If you were resident in France on or before 23rd November 2007, then the position is unclear, but:

  • The Minister’s latest concession, as per her letter dated 23rd January 2008, referred only to E106 holders. Strictly, therefore, upon expiry of form E121 you will be obliged to obtain private health insurance until you have been resident in France for 5 years, receive cover under from a subsequent form E121 or are “ayant droit” (able to “piggy-back”) onto a partner’s form E106 or E121. However,

The view of the British Embassy is that all EU citizens, resident in France on or before 23rd November 2007 will be entitled to affiliate to CMU.

Equally, as it is unlikely that either category would be able to obtain private healthcare on E121 expiry, to cover their conditions, then they may be granted CMU entry under the “accident of life” provisions, outlined in the December statement.

End of excerpt

 

If it is the case that you were legally resident in France before 23rd November 2007,  then it should follow that you are afforded the concession of being allowed to affiliate to CMU, a concession specifically stated for those holding other E forms, but not for those holding IB E121s.  To my knowledge this has yet to be tested,  although the British Embassy is on record as stating that the cases of people in this position would be 'considered sympathetically'.  There is a principle of propotionality in european law and it could be argued that the penalty of losing one's residency as a consequence of a law being applied retrospectively is disproportionate.

Perhaps the British Embassy's commitment that, those who were also fully complying with the law prior to November 2007, will be treated sympathetically, should be tested now.  Good luck!

Further information can be found here :

http://www.frenchhealthissues.eu/default.htm

Mr Cat

 

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What Mr Cat says is, of course, correct and if you've been in France for 4 years you may well be covered by the CMU but what still hasn't been tested is whether receiving CMU as a way of getting French benefits then makes France your competant state, because if it does, then you cannot claim any UK benefits and your IB is no longer payable for that reason..

But that doens't detract from the fact that your benefit has been stopped and whilst that may not mean you have to leave France, you may want to challenge the withdrawal, especially if the condition worstens and you wish to claim DLA in the future.

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Regarding going back to the UK to claim job seekers allowance.

If you believe that your incapacity justifys 15 points then you should not throw in the towel and fight this as has been explained by Tony.

If it really is 3 points then you could seek work in France without having to move back to England.

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Is it possible to request a copy of your 'all work test' assessment?  My wife is disabled - but works pretty much full-time..she has a desk job, workplace modifications, disabled parking etc which all help enormously.  I just went through the test and she would 'comfortably' score 59 so 3 seems an extremely low score..

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Many thanks for you reply ,, have been to stressed to look at replies untill today;

With regards to the medical in Tours , last year ! I did take a friend who speaks French, but things do get lost in Translation , and she might not have thought it important to translate something for me,, The French Dr did say she would say nothing had changed,, so, yes Agree it seems weird that I seem to have been put on this new system with no warning and havnt filled in a questionnaire at all since Ive been here !!

All this appealling could take months ,, so have put the house on the market,, all to very stressful, from a social worker who used to advocate for clients !!

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I will appeal and go to tribunal if neccessary ,, but its all very stressful and one cant have mutuelle with a pre_ existing condition,,

I cant go back to practice as a social worker as I was retired on Compassionate grounds and so cant go back and my professional registration has lapsed!

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Ive been on Incapacity for 5 /6 years , have hearing impairment and despite hearing aid , its still very difficult to hear french,, cant guess words you one does in English;

Also cant do much work,, have a huge incontinence problem ,,form radiotherpy ,, so bending , lifting, getting up ; and the need to go at least hourly does prevent me doing most hings , hence the long trem sickess and early retirement

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A totally different consideration is the exchange rate risk of someone moving to France, who is reliant on UK benefits. In that with virtually all currency analysts bearish on the future of the £, could you survive on a £ source income, if the £ went below euro parity?

I know there are people already in France who would be equally effected, but few forsaw the decline of the £ to date and god knows where we will be in a few months!
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From before I moved to France in 2005 I was concerned me that people move here who are dependant on benefits to fund their lives here and I've said so many times in here over the years.  The way that HMG have been heading lately - and this change to long-term IB has been flagged for a long time - has made it clearer that benefit dependancy is a false, if not a rather reckless, way of funding living in the Euro zone.  As with the advice on investments - they can go down as well as up - people should have that in mind when they factor benefits into their budget for moving to EuroLand because, like other incomes (except perhaps for retirement benefits) they are always an 'extra' not a basis for living, especially in France.

Daffie, it seems that you would have nothing to loose by applying for benefits in France.  Obviously the Dorctor you saw in Lyons thought that your condition was no worse but also no better.  If you haven't had your incontinence taken into account in your assessment - and you didn't explain that fully to the medic you saw - you should use that as part of your appeal.

But you should also ask - immediately - for the appeal forms and to be able to use the form I mentioned previously to have your case reassessed.  At least with that form you will be able to have your GP complete the last part - without having to read what you have written in the form - so that would be your best way forward and may mean you don 't have to leave France. 

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