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Competent State and Benefits


Grecian
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I am trying to get my head around which country would be our Competent State, if I were to either work for an employer, or if I were to start a business here in France.

I think the easiest way to explain my confusion would be to give the scenario, which could happen, for my wife and myself.

At present our healthcare cover comes via an E121 as my wife is in receipt of IB, and also receives DLA and myself CA. Having read some pretty frightening experiences of people claiming ESA, who are obviously too sick to work, but are being passed fit for work, and with the migration of existing claimants on IB to ESA supposedly beginning in October this year, the prospect of her losing her IB, even though I know she is genuinely too ill to work (please do not turn this thread into a benefit scroungers thread), leaves me confused as to how we would stand if I were to take up employment here in France. Both of us have paid enough NI contributions in the UK to be in receipt of DLA/CA, and as things stand the UK are our Competent State, thus the two benefits are being paid by the UK. If I were to take a job in France then obviously I would be contributing to the French social security system, so then would France become our Competent State, and mean we would lose DLA/CA?

Also after the hard fought campaign for the reinstatement of DLA/CA, how will this leave anybody who may be working in France, but were formerly in receipt of DLA in the UK, does this mean that they too would not have their benefit reinstated, as France is now their Competent State?

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OK, let's see what we can sort out here.

Your wife is on IB and she will remain on that until she reaches retirement age so no problem there and as you say, the UK is your competant state.  If your wife is so ill that she needs DLA and you get CA, then the continuation of IB/ESA shouldn't be a problem.  Have you recently filled in the questionnaire from the UK about her IB/ESA status?

If she looses her IB/ESA one of the really big unanswered questions still seems to be whether or not HMG will take that as an opportunity to then withdraw her DLA/CA because she will no longer be receiving IB credits - you don't get them if you're claiming DLA/CA.  That really needs to be tested in law, after some poor soul looses their benefit because it is arguable that the IB is merely a gateway for DLA (and NI contribution credits) and that if IB/ESA is lost, then the DLA should still be awarded - remember you can be awarded DLA and CA in the UK without being in receipt of IB.

As things stand at the moment, it's likely that the UK authorities may just take you off your wife's E121.  She is in receipt of IB and DLA, not you and how she gets that benefit and how she uses it is something between you and her.  Similarly, CA is awarded for her care and if you can leave her long enough to work, she may need to bring other people in to care for her, hence the CA may still be payable.

I think she is fairly OK but I think that you would be legally obliged to tell HMG that you are working and it's you that would loose the comfort of having the UK as your competant state.

But I would still reiterate my point that basing a move to any Euro country on the basis of one person in the partnership receiving benefit is always dangerous because if it is lost, the effort and hoops to be gone through to get it back can be very long winded and time consuming.

And yes, if you were/are in receipt of benefit from the UK and you work here and become part of the French social security system, you are almost certainly losing the UK as your competant state where benefits - tho not retirement pension - is concerned.

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Many thanks for the reply Tony.

So, if I have interpreted your reply correctly, if I were to seek employment then France would become my competent state, and the UK would remain my wife's competent state whether or not she is in receipt of IB, and still be liable for her DLA.

As a point of information for anyone who may have their CA reinstated after your campaign, in the letter I received from DWP they are telling me that I would lose CA if I were to take up any employment, unlike in the UK I think you can earn upto £95 a week and still receive CA, so I guess looking at that statement itself, it is telling me that France would be my competent state if I were to work in France. Just something to be aware of for anyone hoping to have their CA reinstated and is working here in France.

As regards to my wife having had an IB50 form to fill out recently, her next review is not due for another couple of years yet, so she has not experienced how things would work here in France when the time comes around. You stated in your reply that my wife will remain on IB, as you seem to be 'in the know' regarding certain benefit matters, have you had any indication that people already living outside the UK will remain on IB as opposed to being migrated onto ESA? I know that seemed the concensus when ESA was first introduced but nothing seems to have been cited about the situation since the introduction of ESA.

I take your point about moving abroad and depending on benefits to survive, we certainly did not take the decision to move to France lightly, and being in receipt of UK benefits is part of our total income, but we are not totally dependant on them to survive. Just dependant on my wife's E121 for the first 5 years for healthcare cover, unless I seek employment or start a business.

Oh to be an inactiv without any pre-existing medical conditions!

 

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[quote user="Grecian"]  As a point of information for anyone who may have their CA reinstated after your campaign, in the letter I received from DWP they are telling me that I would lose CA if I were to take up any employment, unlike in the UK I think you can earn upto £95 a week and still receive CA, so I guess looking at that statement itself, it is telling me that France would be my competent state if I were to work in France. Just something to be aware of for anyone hoping to have their CA reinstated and is working here in France.

As regards to my wife having had an IB50 form to fill out recently, her next review is not due for another couple of years yet, so she has not experienced how things would work here in France when the time comes around. You stated in your reply that my wife will remain on IB, as you seem to be 'in the know' regarding certain benefit matters, have you had any indication that people already living outside the UK will remain on IB as opposed to being migrated onto ESA? I know that seemed the concensus when ESA was first introduced but nothing seems to have been cited about the situation since the introduction of ESA.  [/quote]

I think that they're flying a kite at the DWP with the first issue on CA.  I would write back to them at the CA Unit and ask them why there isn't the £95 allowance for earnings for people living in Europe and to give you the references in the legislation or rules for that statement.  It's daft that you could live here and work in the UK and get the benefit but can't get it by reason of residence and working here.  I think this is another issue for a Tribunal at some stage.

I don't think anybody can answer your second question yet because apart from one or two decisions, they're still being made.  Somebody posted here a short while back saying their wife had lost their IB (not enough points) but that seems to have been part of an ongoing review rather than a migration to ESA issue as they hadn't completed the IB50.  Again, I think this is a wait and see thingy as we're still waiting for the system to shake down and then see how the various uncoordinated bits of the DWP either communicate or fail to communicate with each other!

And of course, we're also waiting to see whether the loss of IB/ESA will also lead to the loss of DLA!!!!!

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I don't think the matter of 'competent states' is clear cut. In France, when you are married, taxes, benefits etc tend to be regarded jointly for husband and wife, whereas in Britain these things are dealt with on an individual basis. Even our own situation where we are both 'actif' economically - but in different countries - causes some confusion to French officialdom, so I can see a real danger that UK could refuse to recognise an inactive spouse if the other is working and resident in a different country.

Normally, if the situation is reversed, it would be covered by the issue of an E form like E106 or E109, which would, by definition, make the competent state for both the one where the 'worker' was based. But when you are both living in the 'foreign' state, and that state regards couples as a single entity for official purposes, the E form won't apply.

In the case of a 'retired' E121, if an E121 holder works and pays contributions in France then the E121 is superseded and France becomes the competent state for health and social security provision (regardless of the fact that the holder may still receive UK state pension). Whether or not an E121 awarded on the basis of incapacity would be regarded in the same way, I have no idea.

I'm not trying to worry you, but I can see potential difficulties that might be seized upon by the more awkward breed of bureaucrat. This too might need a tribunal (or UK court) decision.

On the other hand, your wife would probably, through your French contributions, become eligible for French benefits rather than UK benefits, which may or may not be of equivalent value, though under that scenario she would most likely lose her E121 and, because she is below state retirement age, any income that brings from UK. There are a lot of sums to be done.

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[quote user="powerdesal"]Not entirely relevant to the question by the OP, but.......Can someone please tell me what the various acronyms mean, IB, DLA, CA, ESA etc etc. (not a UK resident hence I don't know)[/quote]

IB is Invalidity Benefit, in this instance, long-term Invalidity Benefit which is exportable for people moving to Euroland and at the same time the claimant gets a National Insurance credit every week - generated because you were signed off work by your doctor with a 'sick note'.  For some people, that was also accompanied by a form IB 5, which meant that your medical condition was so serious as to mean you were unlikely ever to work again, one step down from special rules, which means you're expected to die in the next three months.

The IB system is being replace by the Employment and Support Allowance which is designed to get people away from 'just' being sick into a place where they will be assessed for the work that they can do, rather than a blanket 'can't do sick note' as the system was.  People on IB are being reassessed and then will either be moved onto ESA or taken off benefit completely and offered help to get back into work tho GPs in the Uk will still have the facility to issue 'can't do' sick notes.

DLA is Disability Living Allowance, CA is Carer's Allowance (and AA, Attendance Allowance), all of which were stopped for UK citizens moving into other EU countries.  However, in October 2007 the European Court of Justice ruled that was illegal and as a result, HMG have done everything they can, legally and illegally, to stop people getting those benfits reinstated.  Currently at the High Court (Tribunal) awaiting a judgement on the DWP's (Department of Work and Pension) activities plus multiple complaints to various independent watchdogs pending the outcome of that case also.

Under HMG's rules, the receipt of long-term IB is a gateway benefit for people living in Europe who wish to claim DLA after moving to Euroland rather than export it at the time that they move.

Simples !!!

I really had no wish to get back into all this welfare benefits stuff when I moved to France and was happy to loose my DLA - well, not happy but accepted it - and had no intention of having to get back up to speed on this at all!

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