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Life Insurance not valid


jan
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Hi I'm new to the forum and was hoing someone may be able to help...

We bought a holiday home in the Haute vienne 2.5 years ago and I visit as for uto 3 months a year. the rest of the time i live in the UK.

Last year i was diagnosed with breast cancer, and went through months and months of operations rendering me ibncapable of working for the months and ultimatly losing my job.

The life insurance that was sold to us by the bank included illness insurance including what i'm going through. After trying to claim they have just sent me a letter saying somthing alaong the lines of..Because your ilness occured outside of France and you dont live and work in France then the insurance is invalid. Even though when the bank sold me the isurance and the mortgage they knew it was a holiday home they knew i lived in the uk and all my postal addresses are here in the UK.

i'm now in a position where i have used all of my savings to pay the last 12 months mortgae and am struggling to pay future payments and am not insured if i die..

 

can anyone give me any advice on where to turn?

 

kind regards

 

Jan.

 

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Thanks for the prompt reply...

 

The mortgage and insurance were both taken out in France with a French bank.

After numerous emails and requests over the last 2 years i still have not recieved and mortgage 'or' insurance policy documents.

and unfortunately i dont have an independant financial advisor.

 

Jan

  

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I was at the bank last week trying to resolve the problem,

I demanded the documents, however, they said they dont hold them here at the branch they are held in head office, so couldnt give me a copy, but would post  them to me...again!!..I've still not seen anything.

Even though i dont have the documents, is there nothing i can do due to the fact that the bank sold me invalid insurance, and still continue to take the payments each month.

Whilst in the bank last week, the manager stated i was the first person outside of the France to make a claim, however, they do have many other clients who i quote' 'Must be in the same situation' i must check....

 

regards

 

Jan

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The problem is, the conditions of the policy would have been set out in your policy documents when you bought the insurance. So until you know what they say you don't know where you stand. It may well have been mis-sold but again, you don't know until you have seen those documents. Is the head office unable to fax a copy to your branch for you to read through?
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im back in the uk now after the easster break,

the bank is supposedly sending me the documents by post.

Even if the small print says i'm not covered, i need to find out where i stand, being missold an insurance policy?

thanks

Jan

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You are obviously and understandably very stressed.

It would  be helpful if you could explain if I am right in assuming that  the insurance was to cover the re-payments on a mortgage on your holiday house in case of illness and death,   and also the name of the Bank.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

jan, it couldn't be that your policy terms and conditions are on line anywhere could it ?

If you can see from you bank statement what the name for the policy is you could try google.fr

[/quote]

I wish it was that easy, nothing is shown independently on the bank statement the mortgage and insurance come out as one payment to the banque populaire, the mortgage is also with this bank and they arranged the insurance.  Is there no legal system in France to prevent this situation as ultimately it is fraud. 

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[quote user="hannah jenkins"]If they were taken out in a bank you should be able to go stand in the bank and wait for them to print them while you wait. It's very worrying that you don't have any documents and there's not a lot you can do without them.[/quote] tried that one but the lady we deal with at the bank said this is not possible and requested head office to send me yet another copy this will be the third time they have supposed sent these to me.

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[quote user="NormanH"]You are obviously and understandably very stressed.

It would  be helpful if you could explain if I am right in assuming that  the insurance was to cover the re-payments on a mortgage on your holiday house in case of illness and death,   and also the name of the Bank.

[/quote] Hi Norman yes when we took out the french mortgage with Banque Populaire they set up the insurance so that in the case of death the house would be paid for, the critical illness was a bonus i never realised it was included until Francoise at the bank told me so as she had read my policy but could not give me a copy directly.  Our notaire has moved away from the region and am not sure who has taken his papers over.  When we signed for the mortgage the bank insisted that we have life cover and they arranged it all.  They also arranged our buildings and contents insurance at the same time.  After being diagnosed I wrote as the insurance company requested, with full details of every operation 8 in total that had taken place, obtained a full doctors report and sent last year's wage slips to them.  They addressed everything to the UK so they knew I was an English resident.  All documents from the bank are addressed to the UK and Francoise knew it was a holiday home with a view to moving over later in life.  When I came at Easter I went to the bank with my letter stating I was not able to claim as my inability to work happened outside of french territory during the past twelve months, Francoise finally agreed to help and called them they told her the same thing and she was concerned that other client's would be in the same position that they have sold insurance to.  I have now written another letter requesting that they reconsider their decision.  I am not sure who is to blame for this the bank of the insurance company or both.  Sorry if this is a litle long but really need advice as to where to go next.  I have thought of returning to france and seeing a notaire but am not sure if this is the correct route at the moment.  Thanks Jan

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I have had a look at the Banque Populaire's website about 'Credit Immobiler ' Their Insurances seem more buildings and contents ( http://www.immobilier.banquepopulaire.fr/immobilier/p454_FR.htm )

There is nothing very clear about the 'Assurance décès Invalidité' that you will have taken out and I wonder if in fact they have farmed it out to another Insurance Company.

This gives details of the sort of Insurance it would be: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_d%C3%A9c%C3%A8s_invalidit%C3%A9

Assurance Décès PTIA (Perte Totale et Irréversible d'Autonomie) et

Incapacité de Travail :

couvre l'assuré en cas de décès ou de perte totale et

irréversible d'autonomie à la suite d'un accident ou d'une maladie. En

cas d'incapacité de travail, l'assurance

prendra en charge tout ou partie de l'échéance du prêt (selon les

modalités du contrat).

The weasel words here are "(selon les

modalités du contrat)"
meaning more or less  'see the small print'

and the legal 'textes' are

Textes de loi

  • Code des assurances : art. L. 112-3
  • Code des assurances : art. L. 113-8 et L. 113-9
  • Code de la consommation article L.312-9
As suggested above the bank may have a service to help settle disputes

and there are other legal routes.

One might be a Conciliateur de Justice  http://www.pratique.fr/reglement-amiable-litiges.html

However I am not sure if it helps to get too hung up on legal solution short term.  French 'justice' is notoriously slow, and you need something to take the pressure off shorter term.

I think that you have suffered from someone giving you a insurance policy  that is inappropriate to your circumstances. This may simply be through ignorance or laziness (it could be the usual policy, and the person who arranged it just didn't think of the fact that your situation was different)

At the same time without the details it is impossible to be sure, and the problem is if you signed it accepting the terms and conditions there may not be an easy way out unless you can show that you were misled or could not understand it and no explanation was offered.

Is it possible to have a pause of a few months in the repayments? This is sometimes  a prevision in the conditions, and would get you a breathing space while preparing your case.

Another possibility is to reduce payments and extend the period.

 

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The first of those is indeed close, but although there is no mention of being a French resident it seems more of a 'lump sum' type insurance than one which pays the mortgage premiums.

Which sort did you think you had? (I'm sure you'd be glad to have either if you can get them to work...[:)] )

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[quote user="NormanH"]The first of those is indeed close, but although there is no mention of being a French resident it seems more of a 'lump sum' type insurance than one which pays the mortgage premiums.

Which sort did you think you had? (I'm sure you'd be glad to have either if you can get them to work...[:)] )
[/quote]

When given the choice at the bank, i opted for the more expensive one that offered a lump sum on death and covered mortgage premiums if i was unable to work through illness.

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[quote user="NormanH"] and I wonder if in fact they have farmed it out to another Insurance Company.

[/quote]

they have indeed farmed it out to another insurance company AXA

this is an extract from their letter:

Apres avoir pris connaissance de l'ensemble des peices de votre dossier, notre Comite Medical nous indique que la cause qui motive votre incapcite actuelle de travail releves des exclusions formulees au chapitre risques exclus de la notice d'information remise lors de la souscription de votre pret.

En effet, est excluse des dispositions contractuelles 'incapacite de travail survenue hors du territoire francais ou monegasque, sauf si l'assure rejoint ce territoire (dans les douze mois suivant son arret de travail); l'incapacite sera alors consideree comme ayant a la date ou elle aura ete constatee medicalement apres son retour'

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If it didn't advise you of this exclusion at the time, while knowing that you were English resident, then you must have at least an argument that Banque Populaire mis-sold the policy.

The question would then arise whether Banque Populaire should be obliged to pay your claim in the place of AXA, or, at the least, should refund the premiums in full or in part.

You need to consult an avocat.

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  • 5 months later...

Following on from Jan (OP) and the problem with life insurance sold with a mortgage (compulsory). We have just been informed that all our premiums for the life cover since the start of the mortage will be refunded €793.

We are free to arrange cover in the UK, there is a new rule comming out v soon we are advised that will change the way the insurances are sold. Some clever French speaker/reader may know of this already.

 

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[quote user="Théière"]

Following on from Jan (OP) and the problem with life insurance sold with a mortgage (compulsory). We have just been informed that all our premiums for the life cover since the start of the mortage will be refunded €793.

We are free to arrange cover in the UK, there is a new rule comming out v soon we are advised that will change the way the insurances are sold. Some clever French speaker/reader may know of this already.

 

[/quote]

Unfortunately, I've come across at this post a little late in the day.  I retired as an IFA just about two years ago and although a little out of touch, I might have been able to throw some light on the basic principles involved with the OP. 

At the moment, I just wanted to ask why your premiums were being refunded.......is it because you are UK resident?  Also, who was the mortgage lender and insurance company and when was the mortgage taken out?

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  • 2 weeks later...

An update:

Mortgage with CA, new law allows you buy your life cover anywhere so not tied to the Bank. It Does however need to be a French insurer so we can't use a UK insurer as I posted earlier.  The cover Will still payout if we are resident in the UK.

The Premiums are being re-funded as the original policy would not have paid out as we are not French residents, It is a little bit of a mystery as policy documents are not supplied in the same way as the UK. There was apparently an element of some kind of PHI cover which we could not have benefited from. So was a non contract hence refund. 

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Very interesting!  We are UK resident and our present French mortgage is with BNP Paribas .  This is backed up by a UK based life policy with NU, albeit taken out iin 2001.  I was speaking with Banque Populaire about another mortgage arrangement in the Spring of this year and, at that time, they were happy for to accept either the NU policy or a new UK policy as cover for the loan, provided it could be assigned to the bank in the correct French form.  We also spoke to BNP as a back-up and they didn't want any cover at all, just an illustration for their file.  As it happens, we didn't proceed with either.

I think it is probably the assignment that would have been a potential stumbling block for some insurers and what the lenders are keen to get right.  Nevertheless, from the conversations with Banque Pop I mentioned above and, having been involved the such things for many years, I wouldn't have envisaged too many problems in putting together what was needed.

As to your void French policy, it seems to me that the lenders the whole world over are the same, in that whatever they can sell you as a bolt-on they will do, irrespective of whether it is suitable.  I spent a good proportion of my career putting such things right for clients.......and very satisfying it was too!!

 

PS.........pool behaving itself very nicely since your advice, thank you![:D]

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