Long but temorary stay in france

[French Frank]

Hi,

Cant decide which way to go on this so any advice please.

Thinking of renting our house in uk and moving to france to check out lifestyle.

would we be better off:-

becoming domiciled and paying our dues to the french system

OR

remaining as uk citizens, paying our taxes in uk and using ehic for health care.

would this situation be tenable for up to 5years?

[5-element]

FIVE YEARS as temporary residents??? You might as well say "I don't have to pay any tax anywhere, since I am a temporary resident on this earth!"

[Will]

You need to refer to the France-UK double taxation agreement to see how and where you would be taxed. You don't get the choice, it's all laid down in the rules. And then you have to consider your social security contributions.

In general, if you live in France you are taxed in France. There are exceptions of course, for people like cross-border workers, so the first question to consider is where, if anywhere, do you work (regardless of who pays you or in which currency).

 

[Chancer]

I have sent you a PM FrenchFrank.

[French Frank]

Thanks Will,

we wouldn't be working anywhere but trying to live off our rental income. I was intending to pay tax and nat ins on that income and use the ehic for health provision. this is intended to be a temporary measure as the move to France may not work out and going through the whole rigmarole could be too much hassle unless we intended to stay permenantly

[French Frank]

thanks

[Simon-the-censored]

Hi French Frank - you raise a few important issues....

Residency and domicile are 2 completely different things...check out the HMRC website for full definitions. Practically impossible to change your domicile.

Residency is a matter of fact - NOT a matter of choice. In general spending more than 183 days a year in France will make you a French resident for tax purposes no matter what - as will having your principal residence here. In fact after living here for more than 3 months, with the intention of staying, you are required to affiliate to the French health system or, if applicable, pay for private health cover until you have been resident for 5 years.

The good thing is, there is a double taxation treaty between the UK and France so you won't pay the SAME taxes on the same income or assets - there may be extra ones, just not the same ones! If you are a French resident you're taxed on your worldwide income, investments and assets

- just like in the UK.

You can only use EHIC for emergency treatment - not for any ongoing requirements or visiting your local French GP etc.....be very careful here. If you are resident / living in France you must by law join the French healthcare system (if eligible) or prove that you have private health cover - you cannot become a 'burden' on the French state - until you have proved you can support yourself (or by transfer of benefits form the UK - S1 forms etc) for 5 years.

Hope this helps and good luck

Simon

[Rose (& Greyman)]

Simon, your post is helpful but the OP should be aware of a few definition slips in it.

The reference to the HMRC website regarding residency/domicile is useful for determining the UK position but these definitions do not apply in France. The 183 day issue is only UK relevant. There are more generalised criteria in the French code, which you suggest. In simple terms if your 'life' is in France you can be French tax resident from the day you step ashore. Forget 183 days in France.

To be pedantic you must declare all your worldwide income in France if you are French resident. Not quite the same as being taxed on it in France, even with the double tax treaty.

I don’t mean to be picky but the OP may be confused.

[Simon-the-censored]

Hi greyman - I'm going to be picky too if that's ok. I was just trying to keep things simple....

I appreciate there are some fairly 'general' criteria in the French Code but they are qualified with some 'tie-breakers' (for fiscal purposes) which are pretty similar to those in the UK.

Take a look at the following link : http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/contents/impot-revenu-declaration/imp10-impot-sur-le-revenu-notion-de-residence-fiscale.php3

I've copied the first 'qualifier' here : (it's the last line that's the important bit!)

- Les personnes qui ont leur foyer ou leur lieu de séjour principal en France.

Il s'agit de la résidence habituelle de la personne ou de sa famille (enfant et conjoint). Une personne travaillant à l'étranger pourra être ainsi considérée comme résident fiscal français si sa famille habite en France. Il suffit de séjourner plus de 183 jours en France (y compris à l'hôtel) pour remplir cette condition.

Simon

[Sunday Driver]

Can I be picky as well......[;-)]

Rather than quoting from an article featured on a non-governmental website (owned and operated by the Howto Media Group), could you provide a link to a document published by the Impôts which confirms the existance of a 183 day 'tie-breaker' covering the situation under discussion here?

A quick search of the Impôts website for '183 days' only brings up references to exemptions from taxation for salaried French residents working abroad and only for those exercising a limited number of very specific occupations.

 

[Will]

I wasn't going to mention the residence/domicile confusion, but since you brought it up France tends to regard the two as virtually interchangeable, whereas UK regards them as entirely separate concepts. UK also has concepts such as 'ordinary residence' which don't exist in France.

This is a useful guide for establishing whether or not you are resident in France.

You can be dual resident, but you can only have one domicile.

EHIC covers rather more than the E111, which is one of the forms it replaced. It is not solely for emergencies, and can be used for continuing treatment of existing conditions, but doesn't cover permanent residence, and for most purposes a stay of (or intention to remain for) six months out of a 12-month period is enough to convince the authorities that your stay is more permanent than temporary. The main exception is cross-border working, for which you will need an aditional E form or the current A1 or S1 equivalent, but as you don't intend to work as such you won't benefit from that.

 

[cooperlola]

Here's a bit more info about residency and health and social security rights. (Or lack of them!)

[French Frank]

Thanks for that very useful information Simon.

[Simon-the-censored]

Frank - my pleasure and I appreciate your thanks.

You know what - there are hundreds of thousands of expats in France from the UK alone - not to mention the additional hundreds of thousands from around the world. Most of us get by just fine - it's simply a question of adapting. No major brain surgery involved. For most (not all!) it's a lifestyle choice.

The best advice I could give you would actually be to get professional advice relevant to your own particular situation.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Simon

[allanb]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]Can I be picky as well.....? [/quote]

Can I join in?

It is not correct to say that the treaty defines your residence.  French tax law will tell you whether you are resident in France for tax purposes, and British tax law will tell you whether you are resident in the UK for tax purposes.

Since the two countries' rules are not mutually exclusive, you may be resident in both countries for tax purposes.  In that case the treaty will tell you which country you are deemed to be resident in for the purpose of applying the treaty - not for any other purpose.

The treaty rules that determine this are generally known as the "tie-breaker" rules, as already mentioned.  But if you are only resident in one of the two countries, they are irrelevant.  And incidentally, they do not contain any reference to 183 or any other number of days.

[Chancer]

It all gets very complicated doesnt it, especially when the opinions of others are solicited.

I prefer 5 elements tongue in cheek approach:

"I don't have to pay any tax anywhere, since I am a temporary resident on this earth!"

And there is some jurisprudence in France, "those parking restrictions/road laws/handicap bays/pedestrian crossings etc dont apply to me as I am only stopping temporarily for a packet of fags or une baguette" [:D]

[Rose (& Greyman)]

[quote user="French Frank"]Thanks for that very useful information Simon.[/quote]

Am I the only one who finds this a bit bizarre ? Several posters have subsequently taken the trouble to elaborate and correct Simon's post and this seems rather a pointed snub. This is a very complicated area where it is important to be sure of your facts and I don't think anyone was trying to score points just clarifying for the OPs benefit. Having taken the trouble to thank a poster why not include all those who did so ? Perhaps I'm just thin skinned !

[cooperlola]

[quote user="greyman"][quote user="French Frank"]Thanks for that very useful information Simon.[/quote]

Am I the only one who finds this a bit bizarre ?

[/quote]No you are not. 

Two well respected contributers to this forum, who do a lot of research and who only post when they are pretty sure of their facts, are saying something that maybe the o/p would rather not hear?  Whereas a Simon-come-lately says "just come over and you'll be fine."  Whilst I do agree with Simon in many ways - in that it is not rocket science to move over here and many people have done it - I do believe that French Frank needs to look very carefully at what happens re his healthcare.  If he should fall foul of the French regs and get very ill with no legal cover, he could lose both his homes just meeting medical costs - not something people have had to face for some years, but which was an issue before CMU entry was allowed, and is certainly one since November '07 for newcomers.  And whilst I think professional advice is important for people with complicated finances, it's not what Frank needs - it's advice as to which of the two options he asks about.  Imho, he can only do one - the other is a) illegal and b) could be very expensive if he comes over expecting his EHIC to pay for any healthcare he needs.

But Chance you are right - 5E pretty much nutshelled this one - most of the subsequent posts are just padding after that (including my two!)[:D]

[Simon-the-censored]

Cooperlola - my name is Simon -not 'Johnny - come - lately' !

It's not always the message that counts - it's often how it's delivered......think about it.

Simon :-)

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Simon Ariège"]Greyman - my name is Simon -not 'Johnny- come- lately' ![/quote]That was me - don't blame it on poor Greyman.[:)]  I will amend my post accordingly.

[Rose (& Greyman)]

[quote user="Simon Ariège"]

It's not always the message that counts - it's often how it's delivered......think about it.

Simon :-)[/quote]

I've thought about it and I don't get it. Are you saying it doesn't matter if the information in the message is wrong, provided it's done in a smiley way ? I think all the posts were helpful up to the point where French Frank decided to single out your (not entirely accurate) post for thanks and ignore everyone else.

No one has an axe to grind. We're just trying to be precise for the OP.

[Panda]

I would bet good money that Simon is an estate agent with lots of property going nowhere fast, there is a vested interest somewhere. [:)]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Panda"]

I would bet good money that Simon is an estate agent with lots of property going nowhere fast, there is a vested interest somewhere. [:)]

[/quote]Could be...[Www]

However, Simon, like Greyman, my  point really was that I felt that Will and Sunday deserved as much (and possibly more?) thanks for their - factually correct - responses as you (as a very recent recruit to the forum whom few if any of us know) did, especially given their years of experience and excellent record of contributions to this place.  Something which I'd like to bet hundreds and hundreds of forum users have good reason to be extremely grateful for.

[Skydigitalhd]

You didn't tell that why you want to come to France.Remember one thing that our parent country is the best according to our needs.Although we can have short stay somewhere in other country.France is a very good country in the world and definitely you would like it.I live in CzekRepublic and have been to France many times for business work and I also like that country.

Post edited in accordance with the forum code of conduct