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DLA some movement


Llwyncelyn
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Dear Puzzled I agree with you that an appeal well-structured and well-rehearsed should go in but out there are individuals with needs and of course the DLA guys would not take let us say a class action and for obvious reasons DLA is very much an individual scenario.

So you need a consensus here.

For someone else and here on the forum I have done a draft letter perhaps on the basis that you are suggesting.  I am not saying its a wonderful piece of work or that it could not be improved but its something that I have done overnight and thinking about the problem.  It would be for the other contributor to decide if they wish to let others have the framework of the letter.It is a starting point.

If I can be of any further help then of course I will gladly do so.

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[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Still, if they pay us, Jacqui Smith may have to buy her own f*****g bath plugs.

Bit upset Tony? Join the club or were you a founder member?  [:D]

What makes me really angry is that I was, until about 9 years ago, a hard line Labour supporter, as were the rest of my family - betrayed, bloody right I feel betrayed and even more so now.

You still can be. This lot aren't the Labour Party. My old Dad will also be turning in his grave.

[/quote][/quote]Quite.  What is more, every time anybody on here refers to this sorry lot as "socialists" I nealy fall of my chair, I am laughing so much.

On a more serious note - if I can help at all with a more concerted lobbying effort, let me know.  I can't put any real work in at the mo' but I do have a lot of stuff which could help - including some Europe contacts - and a lot of experience as to the various pitfalls (mind you, so has Tony).  Do PM me if I can do anything.

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We received our refusal this morning based on a failure to appeal after DLA was stopped following our move to Greece plus the 26/52 week residency requirement for new claims. The submision we put in was solely in terms of the law which the expo team totally ignored. Tribunal here we come.
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Dear Grecophile

little bit of advice here if I may. When writing to the DLA try to use phrases and words which indicate in your opinion their decision was perverse flies in the face of a judgment which is binding upon the UK. That therefore their decision making process is flawed illogical unreasonable and irrational.

Do not forget you have just one month to appeal and you need a personal hearing not a Tribunal where both parties can submit written evidence. You also in your letter need to insist that both parties exchange the basis of their arguments 21 says before the hearing., You do not want any nasties on the day so 21 days gives you the time to research and perfect your argument. The DLA will have to tell you and in advance what their interpretation of the judgment is and that will be the secret to all of this and to all of us.
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Dear Dragonrouge

Many thanks for this. I will address the DLA in your suggested terms and put a rider on it that the grounds for appeal should not be viewed as exhaustive. I shall ask whether they are going to attend. I take it that it is at this stage I have to send in the GL24 form.

To date the DLA are ignoring my requests for a detailed written statement of reason but assume that will come with their bundle prior to the appeal hearing, although their literature states it should be with me 14 days after my written request for it. This was done in my initial submission to them dated the 5.4.2009.

They are also ignoring all other requests for information.

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I have an apology to make.

Almost a month ago and about 10 minutes before leaving for a visit to the UK I posted the following:

[quote user="lorna"]Just to remind you in case it helps and before I go (away for 2 weeks) - we moved in June 2008 - benefit stopped - applied July 2008 - benefit reinstated as of June 2008. Notified Jan 2009. More detail in previous posts.[/quote]

I had just had a quick look at recent posts and noticed how important the dates applying to various individuals' cases had become. As I thought my case might be relevant I quickly composed the short note above and posted it. I even remember checking the dates that I stated.

However, the dates I've mentioned are incorrect and the following re dates is what I should have posted:

" Just to remind you in case it helps and before I go (away for 2 weeks) - we moved in June 2007 - benefit stopped - applied July 2008 - benefit reinstated as of June 2007. Notified Jan 2009. More detail in previous posts.  "

After my return I had a few days at home and then went into hospital for some investigative tests. I still haven't caught up with this thread, I think it will take me a while to read through everything, but as I get emails of postings to the thread I have seen that these dates seem to be crucial to re-instatement. Quite honestly I don't see how I fit the date criteria. I don't think I made a mistake when filling in the forms. One of the forms I filled in in December was the same as a form I had filled in in 2007 after our move.

I didn't want to delay posting a correction any longer. I will go back to the incorrect post and add an edit there if that is possible.

Once again apologies.  [:(][:(][:(]

 

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As I understand things Tony one Tribunals decision is not binding on another Tribunal? However the DLA traditionally follow a Tribunals decision and do not appeal to a Commissioner.

With respect as well it is difficult to take a broad brush approach and there may well be other things that we do not know.

However inconsistency is another argument plus others which have already been identified.

Inh my experience the DLA people do not send someone to represent them at Tribunal and if they do they tend to get a 'locum' who sometimes knows nothing. Mainly they provide written evidence.

I still say the better way forward is to argue that the judgment is binding etc etc and when someone gets to the Tribunal then they have to disclose their interpretation of the judgment. Then the argument starts!

rdgs
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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Hi Lorna

So, if I'm reading your post correctly and putting it simplistically, you left the UK before the October judgement, didn't appeal, re-applied over a year later and the benefit was reinstated - so what about the 26 week rule folks?

[/quote]

Hi Tony, yes, exactly right. [8-)].

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[quote user="dragonrouge"]As I understand things Tony one Tribunals decision is not binding on another Tribunal? However the DLA traditionally follow a Tribunals decision and do not appeal to a Commissioner. [/quote]

Understand that hence my suggestion that we try to manipulate the list for all having the Tribunals on the same day - ok, we could come unstuck and loose the lot but if one person wins and we all have the same srgument - 26 week rule, inconsistency, plain language, ECJ ruling, illogical argument about appealing against a decision that couldn't be overturned anyway - if they award to one (and assuming that we're all bounced for the same reasons which seems increasingly likely, it would be illogical not to allow all the other appeals.

DR and Grecophile, do you have references for your cases so I can look them up, if DR won on a point of law, it may help the rest of us? 

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[quote user="dragonrouge"]As I understand things Tony one Tribunals decision is not binding on another Tribunal? However the DLA traditionally follow a Tribunals decision and do not appeal to a Commissioner. [/quote]

Understand that hence my suggestion that we try to manipulate the list for all having the Tribunals on the same day - ok, we could come unstuck and loose the lot but if one person wins and we all have the same srgument - 26 week rule, inconsistency, plain language, ECJ ruling, illogical argument about appealing against a decision that couldn't be overturned anyway - if they award to one (and assuming that we're all bounced for the same reasons which seems increasingly likely, it would be illogical not to allow all the other appeals.

DR and Grecophile, do you have references for your cases so I can look them up, if DR won on a point of law, it may help the rest of us? 

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Just for clarification Lorna. Was the time between surrendering your DLA and asking for reinstatement more or less than 13 months?

Tony. My husband's appeal in 2001 was based on the fact that the DLA had acted outside their guidelines in stopping his benefits and that he still met the eligibility criteria. The maladministration claim against the DWP was a natural progression from the appeal tribunal based on their failure to act correctly by stopping his benefits in the first place and not following correct procedures throughout. With regard to the current appeal I have based it on the information supplied in the latest press release by Roger and Tina relating to illogical, unreasonable, flawed........

Tina is doing a sterling job coordinating and disseminating information. What is the forums opinion to using the same appeals tribunal venue?

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[quote user="grecophile-2008"]

Just for clarification Lorna. Was the time between surrendering your DLA and asking for reinstatement more or less than 13 months?

[/quote]

We travelled to France on 27th June 2007 and consider ourselves resident from 28th June 2007. My letter requesting reinstatement has a saved date on my pc of  25th July 2008 although the letter itself is dated 24th July 2008. It may not have been posted that same day as I have to rely on MOH to post letters for me but it will have been posted within a few days of that date. I have a letter dated 29th August 2008 acknowleding receipt of my request. I think that means (feel free to check my calculations) I may have just scraped inside 13 months and it will be within 14 if 14 is important.

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I am following this thread although Mrs Benjamin seems to be in a unique position in that although she did try to claim DLA in 2005 from here she has never claimed DLA whilst UK resident.

I admit to some times loosing the plot as far as the best means of moving forward is not very clear. One thing of which I'm sure is that this is far too important for many people to be allowed to be decided by individual tribunals.

Is it at all possible that the DWP can be forced into disclosing the arguments behind the 26/52 week condition that has been added prior to anyone going before a tribunal?

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Dear Benjamin that is exactly the point someone has to hit a Tribunal first and then the DLA has to outlined its argument either in writing or in person. They are under no obligation to go wholesale on this. It is like the bank charges case in the UK someone first had to have the hearing in the High Court. May I suggest that whomever on this forum gets there first then it might be helpful to have an on-line discussion in very general terms for otherwise it could or could not have a benefit for those who follow.
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My apologies for cutting into the thread, I have been poorly all weekend and am just catching up with all the postings.

Thank you DR for your advice on appealing on the basis we have not had a decision yet. As my last posting said, our dates were almost the same as Tina's, and no, to date we still have not had any communication.

I phoned the Expo Team again last week, and again was told the claims are being dealt with in date order from October 2007. I said can you tell me where you are up to, say for example December 2007 or January 2008 etc so I know where we are with a timescale for reinstatement? But I got the same answer, cannot give a timescale.

Strange that others have received letters of refusal and have got their appeals in! I am sat with a GL24 ready to fill in!

Tina, thank you for all your dedication and committment, I have forwarded your posting to several contacts for publication and distribution.

with regards

BBR

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Dear Barebackrider

A basis for an appeal to a Tribunal is very much that they have not reached a decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

English law lays down strict guidelines and it is not acceptable under the law for them to say see you in eighteen months time. Their staffing problems are theirs and theirs alone.

I would appeal on the basis that they have not yet reached a decision?

But that is me.
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[quote user="dragonrouge"]Dear Barebackrider A basis for an appeal to a Tribunal is very much that they have not reached a decision!!!!!!!!!!!!!! English law lays down strict guidelines and it is not acceptable under the law for them to say see you in eighteen months time. Their staffing problems are theirs and theirs alone. I would appeal on the basis that they have not yet reached a decision? But that is me.[/quote]

So we could launch a sort of pre-emptive strike, Israeli style and get our retaliation in first?

Or could we only appeal on the grounds that they haven't made a decision yet after 18 months - the decision, once made, would be a seperate appeal?

Edit:  Just printed out the GL24 because one way or another, I'm going to need it - and guess what, still no response to my last email response to the anonymous question, nor any reply to my letter to Wendy Kettle with my form.  I'm not chasing anything now, just sitting back and logging the lack of response so I can hit them with the whole lot at the Tribunal or when I claim the maladministration.

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Dear Tony any process must have an end game and I really think that someone should ask to go before a Tribunal on this point. At the same time have a look at the other posting from NI and yes I know things there are different but its a case of someone moving here and who passes the residency test and who is going to be paid DLA. That tells me that the residency test is really something that is so important for otherwise they would have simply paid all DLA and not gone down the road they are going.
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Here's my thoughts, for what they're worth! If I have missed posts on this tread of a similar nature or picked something up incorrectly, I apologise.

Would it not be better to straight to the EU?

The Government are breaking the ECJ ruling. So rather than individual cases going to tribunal a letter to the appropriate EU department, informing them of how the UK Government is implementing their ruling, could possibly bring about an end to the whole matter. Maybe SOLVIT would consider taking this on instead of contacting them about individual cases.

On other occasions, when the UK or Northern Ireland have not followed EU law to the letter (be it regarding green issues or anything else), warnings have been issued, including the threat of massive fines against the Government, resulting in the immediate & total implementation of the relevant rulings.

As the tribunals are UK based (are they run by the DWP themselves?) surely they are just going to just follow their own advice/judgement & continue along the “party line”?!




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As to the Tribunals all the ones I have appeared in front of consisted of three people. The Chair legally qualified and normally a Solicitor (many of whom I have fallen out with on points of law) then a medical guy when there is a question as to whether DLA is appropriate medically wise then a strict lay person. I have won all of my cases to date but that is just something that has happened.

I remain convinced that good sound arguments will win the day. But I am beginning to see some problems and will return to the judgment as a whole later today.

The NI approach and which is another posting in respect of DLA is suggesting to me that back dating of the claim to when one left the UK is going to be difficult and I am in some difficulty in understanding Blackpools approach to 26/52. I can only find the Google approach to the Judgment has anyone please the judgment in totality for since switching to a new computer let us say we have had some problems. I need to read it again and again.
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