French health care

[cooperlola]

You can take a horse to water....

 

Sometimes I just can't stop myself joining in the more political threads but most of the time I try not to as I am in such a minority on this forum and have a fair idea of what the majority is going to say, more or less.  One of my theories is that perhaps it's the fact that we are disenfranchised that makes it seem a little pointless to get hot under the collar about French political policy when we can't do much about it.  Maybe that is the reason for the lack of interest (as opposed to disinterest) in the subject on a forum such as this?

[EmilyA]

I agree Coops, it is partly about being disenfranchised, but also because I am quite confused. I am a life-long socialist voter, but I find the PS so conservative that I am not sure what I would do if I could vote.

Quite agree Cerise about brushing up against reality dealing with RSI and the like; it amazes me how people float along in an ex-pat bubble and never realise how difficult things can be. Then when they do have problems they think it because they are British, not realising that is exactly the same for the French.

And yes I am horrified that my elderly neighbour can't get a hearing aid even though he is so deaf that he didn't hear a fire engine go past the door last week.

[NormanH]

[quote user="EmilyA"]

I agree Coops, it is partly about being disenfranchised, but also because I am quite confused. I am a life-long socialist voter, but I find the PS so conservative that I am not sure what I would do if I could vote.

Quite agree Cerise about brushing up against reality dealing with RSI and the like; it amazes me how people float along in an ex-pat bubble and never realise how difficult things can be. Then when they do have problems they think it because they are British, not realising that is exactly the same for the French.

And yes I am horrified that my elderly neighbour can't get a hearing aid even though he is so deaf that he didn't hear a fire engine go past the door last week.

[/quote]

Mélenchon !!!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpg7cg_discours-de-jean-luc-melenchon-a-clermont-ferrand_news?start=71#from=embed

[suein56]

[quote user="NormanH"]It is true that nowadays  this  Forum is a lot less rosy-eyed than previously, but there is still a lack of interest in things perceived as 'French'.

I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people here are second home owners,  who don't really feel too bothered by French life. [/quote]

Perhaps you are right re the owners of holiday homes who don't understand how raw daily life can be here for residents.  But, having said that many posters on here are full time residents. We all, perhaps, have a slightly different take on our life here depending on our own individual situation. 

For example, my OH and I live here full time, for the moment we are renters - like the majority of French people - but hope to move into our own home soon. When we arrived in 2005 the £ was high and expats were enjoying a mini golden age where their pensions bought lots of €€ and all was good in their world. Then 'la crise' arrived and the £ fell and quite a few expats struggled and, eventually, left for elsewhere, many of them going back to the UK which, seemingly, can be kinder to older people with limited income or in difficulties. That said many remained, gritted their collective teeth and got on with life, albeit reining in their spending and finding cheaper ways to live than before.

We are interested in 'French Life' as it affects us all. Speaking to our neighbours, who, fortunately, are all in employment for the moment - some have suffered being dismissed and being on the dole for periods of time, but, eventually, found new jobs - they are all voluble about the forthcoming election but differ hugely in their views. They are all appalled that OH and I cannot vote - though we pay all our dues - except in local elections, which, as they say, serves for little.

Sue

[Russethouse]

Norman, part of the reason that you don't get answers could be because the links you post are often in French and if ones language skills are not that great, forum members might not look, or if they do, simply give up. Perhaps a precis of the topic would encourage more discussion ?

[NormanH]

You are in a pretty affluent area which has been an economic success over the last couple of decades. I know Vannes, having run an exchange with the Lycée Charles de Gaulle in the 1990s, and I like it very much, but it is a far cry from the rough realities of some regions.

That said I am sure there are people in both the UK and France who would not be able to pay the price for expensive dental work for example, and at least the most serious illnesses are covered at 100%.

The problem as stated in the programme is the gap between those on the CMU and those just over the limit.

My Mutuelle costs around €140 a month. I am a single person and can find it, but it would still be  a hefty chunk out of a  'normal' pension of just over 1000€ a month

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.asp?reg_id=0&ref_id=NATCCF04564

[NormanH]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Norman, part of the reason that you don't get answers could be because the links you post are often in French and if ones language skills are not that great, forum members might not look, or if they do, simply give up. Perhaps a precis of the topic would encourage more discussion ?[/quote]

Fair point.  I rather hope that people will use a translator such a Google, or a firefox add-on, but I am guilty of underestimating the difficulty

[Pickles]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Russethouse"]Norman, part of the reason that you don't get answers could be because the links you post are often in French and if ones language skills are not that great, forum members might not look, or if they do, simply give up. Perhaps a precis of the topic would encourage more discussion ?[/quote]

Fair point.  I rather hope that people will use a translator such a Google, or a firefox add-on, but I am guilty of underestimating the difficulty

[/quote]

Personally, I prefer to have a French source - Norman's links are generally very informative. At least give people the option of a source in French - some news videos etc will never be available in translated form.

[Russethouse]

 I have a google toolbar and it is set to automatically translate text - however the devil is so often in the detail and sometimes even google mangles the meaning somewhat.... I suspect that a short resume of the topic in English would pay dividends asfar as worthwhile discussion is concerned...

[Pickles]

[quote user="NormanH"]It is true thatnowadays  this  Forum is a lot less rosy-eyed than previously, but there is still a lack of interest in things perceived as 'French'

In the last couple of months I have posted about the scandal of hospital doctors taking a huge extra payment to be seen privately[/quote]

Just because I (for one) didn't respond does not mean that I didn't look at the link and read with interest. (ie I DID look and I DID read!). I recall that this issue has been building up over the last few months (eg in terms of reports in local/national news)..

[quote user="NormanH"]trying to start a discussion about the policies of the various candidates in the Presidential election and how they may affect  British residents, a thread with almost no interest.[/quote]

Again the links that you've posted have been very interesting - I've been looking at Midi Libre's coverage as a result. It's very depressing: once upon a time I would have compared it to re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, but what I have seen recently is of Schettino-scale denial of problems, from all sides. They all seem entrenched in dogma and in-fighting.

[quote user="NormanH"]I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people here are second home owners,[/quote]

Guilty

[quote user="NormanH"]who don't really feel too bothered by French life.[/quote]

It's not that - although if one is not resident in France, it is sometimes difficult to do much more than empathise: some of the issues and situations that have been aired on this Forum bring you up short.

[cooperlola]

I certainly have trouble with video as my broadband is very slow and most things spend so long buffering that I give up after a few seconds.  In fact, these days, the moment I see a link to a video I tend to just ignore it.

The printed word is fine, but I do agree, R/H, I always think it's better to make a point than just post links, especially if your audience might be struggling with the language.  I see a lot of interesting looking topics for threads but when I open them the o/p has just left a link to another site with no explantion at all (not you, Norman).  I just ignore these and move on to something else.

NB - this is a response to R/H, not Pickles![:)]

[Gardengirl]

It's interesting that some on here think that people are in an ex-pat bubble; one said those words, others obviously think the same thing.

Whether part-time in France or full-time, unless somebody actually lives

very close to a mixed community, so they are cheek by jowl with French

people who are having difficulties, it's almost impossible to know just

what others are going through. Plus, of course, in many cases French

neighbours would rather die than have their circumstances known by

others of whatever nationality.

The people I know in France in our small town and surrounding villages, who I meet

out on walks, at classes etc, are pretty much what one might call middle

class, fwhatever their nationality. I do see people who in

my view might have very little, but I dont know them; I see them around town and at the local Sunday

brocantes - definitely jumble sale level- along with tourists in search

of local colour plus more wealthy residents (I assume - we can't always

know!) Then there are those who I see begging in the streets, some of

whom I know are living nearby in a cave (really a

cave in the rocks, not a wine callar!), others who are regularly dropped off in quite smart cars.

I'd say that's also true of life in England for many who have moved

to France, full or part-time - they wouldn't necessarily know people in severe difficulty. Unless you know and mix with people, it's

difficult to know their circumstances, and even then there's often an act they put on so that others don't know their problems. Not the same at all, but a little like people who can't read, but who are experts at hiding the fact.

I'd have guessed that most of us appreciate that many French people are finding life increasingly difficult.

On reading parts of this thread it really seems a bit like the 'I look down on him' sketch. Only here, some are implying that they are looking down on others from an even greater height. Apologies if it's not like that, but having read the last couple of pages, it seems that way to me.

[NormanH]

Certainly no-one can accuse people such as Pickles as not being interested.

The problem as always is one of generalising...

My mission ( [+o(] ) is to open the eyes of those of you who can't be here all the time to some of the issues that you might not otherwise pick up.

Of course this is coloured by my personal point of view, and of course I do live in a very impoverished area and see the problems at first hand every day.

[Gardengirl]

Norman, I'm always interested in following links etc, like many others, although I might not necessarily respond to posts. Lack of comment doesn't necessarily mean lack of interest or empathy.

[idun]

I suppose that was the good thing about my kids being in the local school, I got to meet everyone, the poor in my community up to the rich and a right mix it was, eclectic!

In consequence, and being the curious being I am, I learned how my neighbours lived. We, I understood quite early on, were priviledged. And my worries continue for some people in my old community, they live in dire straights as much now as they did all those years ago. And that in spite of the CMU coming in. Sadly and interestingly some of the people I knew who lived very close to the poverty line had Bac+5 or 6, and surely they should have been in good and decent employment, but were not and that is how I found out that trying to find a new job at over 40 was very very hard and in some cases impossible.

So many aspects to french life, that I could have what, ignored, found a ghetto anglais, never learnt french to speak more than a few words of french and lived a good life, oblivious to what was happening around me, but that is not me. That will never be me, no matter where I am. And I am not content to simply witness people's misery, I do try and help  people without making anyone feel uncomfortable, and if I can, make it feel as if they are doing me a favour, obvious charity is not good and people have their pride. We'll never be well off, but I know when I am well off compared to others and how lucky I am.

Health care, I have stories about it, and some very bad. I have good ones too. But it doesn't work that there is a balance in this. If someone suffers medical malpractice, then someone getting good treatment doesn't count or balance the books.

I was always accused of being very negative about France. I never was and am not now. I tell what I see and concede have spent far too much time à table with huge discussions and 'huge' statements and my life is just like that now, something to say, I say. If that isn't what happens where you live, well tant pis. It is a glorious part of french life these huge arguments and discussions where everyone has their point of view and then everyone bisous'z usually at the end of a very good meal.

So what am I now. An ex ex pat? with very french connections, all income from France, family in France and some very good friends in France. I do watch french news just about every night and watch french TV5 monde regularly. I know less than I used to, but I do try and keep up with life in LBF............

Re french health care, I like a lot of it, but I could and did have health care when I wanted, full cover and a decent mutualist and never found it 'normal' that not everyone could.

[EmilyA]

I used the term "ex-pat bubble". I was talking about the people I know who go from one (almost daily) ex-pat activity to the next. Choir, cookery club, book club, walking group, bingo, dance class etc etc. At village events they all sit together, never mix and only ever say bonjour to anyone else. I even know some who proudly say "Oh we never mix with the French."

I think that is wrong.

[NormanH]

Just remind them that they aren't expats, they are immigrants, and they live in a ghetto.

[Lou]

Just another point re: Norman's remark about people not being interested in 'real' French life, and not commenting on posts etc. Partly in my own defense, but also I imagine affecting others on here!

Some of us who are in France full-time are working (like me!) and don't always have the time to read eveything and comment on it. I think Norman( amongst others) always posts interesting stuff, but I don't always have the time to read and think about it in detail, when the topic/post is fresh.

I agree with Coops re just posting links, I usually skip these thinking I will come back to them, but rarely do! Even a one liner to start the discussion off is better than nothing.

Finally, it's the nature of the beast that most people are mostly interested in their own lives and what directly affects them, and they won't always have the contacts/language skills to delve further  into other people's lives. I consider myself fortunate that I work with French people, and can watch/listen to French news and pick up what's happening - but I also usually watch the UK news and read UK newspapers online too.

Lou (on a quiet Saturday morning at work!)

[NormanH]

That is another good point Lou.

I live alone and am retired, so naturally I spend more time than most people on here, and perhaps give it more weight than a person with a busier life.

On the other hand I do get out and about in town, so hear what is being said on various issues.

[Cerise]

My actual point was that even though this is a French forum LOTS of people seem to have plenty to say about the state (perceived or otherwise) of things in the UK. There is plenty of collective indignation for the failings of the system. However when equally sad/unpleasant things happen in France there is little or no comment. It is as if they feel that any adverse comment about France cannot be made. My French friends and acquaintances are loud in their indignation about the system. If no one commented on the UK posts then I wouldn't find it so strange. For me it is a disgrace that France is not a third world country and yet so many people are denied access to proper health care. I would have been angry were that the case when I lived in the UK and I'm angry about it now I live here. I don't understand the complacency. The fact that I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to go to the doctor's and have a decent mutuelle in no way makes it right that other people can't. Decent health care is the mark of a decent society. Having to fight the system when you are ill is sad and depressing.

[EmilyA]

I completely agree Lou. I can never understand why people don't comment more on the ridiculous bureaucracy of the health system as well. All those separate caisses, IT systems that don't work, lack of use of email, complex systems for payments and refunds. How much money goes on all that? Also I get cross when people have a go at the immigrant early retired paying into the CMU. It is hardly their fault is it, that that is where the system has decreed that they should be? I am all for a minimum charge to the CMU, but I don't see how you can blame people for being put in it in the first place by the French authorities.

 

[NormanH]

[quote user="EmilyA"]

I completely agree Lou. I can never understand why people don't comment more on the ridiculous bureaucracy of the health system as well. All those separate caisses, IT systems that don't work, lack of use of email, complex systems for payments and refunds. How much money goes on all that? Also I get cross when people have a go at the immigrant early retired paying into the CMU. It is hardly their fault is it, that that is where the system has decreed that they should be? I am all for a minimum charge to the CMU, but I don't see how you can blame people for being put in it in the first place by the French authorities.

 

[/quote]

But they chose to come to France.

When I came there was no CMU and I had to pay a private health insurance until I worked and earned the right to cover.

I believe that the CMU should exist as it was intended for poor French people, and those who choose to come here as early-retired and 'inactif' ( three choices there) should pay for their choice as we used to do by private insurance.

[EmilyA]

Fine Norman, but then you exclude anyone who takes a couple of pills a day for high blood pressure or diabetes. As long as you have a minimum payment (possibly around the private insurance mark), then I can't see the problem. Of course you could always put them in one of the other caisses if you want one just for the poor, but personally I prefer to think of it as the caisse that is there for everyone who doesn't fit in elsewhere.

[NormanH]

I certainly agree with Cérise that there are plenty of things to comment on in France, without being anti all things French.

It's like the honesty of a best friend who can tell you the truth.

Although I am not at all on the same side as Sarkozy I did hope that he might bring in some changes to simplify the bureaucracy and make economies where they would do least harm

Unfortunately apart from the introduction of the AE system there seems to be little progress.

In the case of the French health system, which after all is the topic of this thread I see lots of money being siphoned off  from the State  by drug companies, transport, and private providers who are paid automatically without close enough budgetary  control.

Just compare the price of some drugs or items of medical equipment in France and the UK .

[idun]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="EmilyA"]

I completely agree Lou. I can never understand why people don't comment more on the ridiculous bureaucracy of the health system as well. All those separate caisses, IT systems that don't work, lack of use of email, complex systems for payments and refunds. How much money goes on all that? Also I get cross when people have a go at the immigrant early retired paying into the CMU. It is hardly their fault is it, that that is where the system has decreed that they should be? I am all for a minimum charge to the CMU, but I don't see how you can blame people for being put in it in the first place by the French authorities.

 

[/quote]
But they chose to come to France.
When I came there was no CMU and I had to pay a private health insurance until I worked and earned the right to cover.
I believe that the CMU should exist as it was intended for poor French people, and those who choose to come here as early-retired and 'inactif' ( three choices there) should pay for their choice as we used to do by private insurance.


[/quote]

 

NH as Coops has pointed out to me in the past,  it stopped being so simple for those who moved to France and just wanted to pay for their health care until they joined the system. They had to have full comprehensive insurance that became too costly for some. They had no choice other than to take that. In the past people could pay as they went along or take out a little insurance.

I've got that right Coops?

So that could do with tweaking, IMO ofcourse.I am not suggesting that anyone throw themselves on the mercy of the french health system before they are eligible in any shape or form and if they cannot 'keep' themselves, then should go.

Re the french, well, I know it is hard for so many, I know that. At least the carte vitale has speeded up the reimbursement process.

And I agree Cerise, many move to France to read their Daily Mail and are simply not interested in other their own lives.I've never been like that, so I suppose that it was inevitable that I was interested in life around me, whereever I live and I worry and try and help when I see people who appear to need it.  Call me a nosey sow, or curious by nature, but that is how I am.

Like Lou we spent far more of our adult lives in France than we did in the UK.