Loss of French Healthcare

[NormanH]

[quote user="idun"]

You have raised a very interesting point Grecian and that is in what language should such an important medical visit be held in?

I would without any hesitation say in french. The Doctor is french and medical french is their working language, I would never want something so important to be left to the vagueries of a french Doctor misinterpreting and consequently losing out.

If I had any doubts about my french being up to it, I would employ a translator. And I would always ask for a compte rendu of the appointment.

 

I note with interest that you said that anything french that goes to the DWP disappears. Which department 'loses' this paper work exactly? The DWP is an enormous organisation.

[/quote]

I agree with this 100%

Not only their medical French, either. I have  had to ask a Doctor to speak French when explaining something because she was floundering to put it clearly in English, having at first insisted in trying 'to improve my English'

The main danger is that because the person seems to speak English well you assume all you have said  has been understood as it would have been  by an English doctor.

Without giving a language lesson there are several 'faux amis' which can lead to confusion:

one simple example is eventually /  eventuellement

In English there is the idea of something that will happen finally, but in French it is not at all certain, in fact it means more like 'possibly'

You can see the potential for misunderstanding of say a diagnosis, or a question like "Will it get better eventually?"

A French doctor might say "Yes", and an English Doctor "No" [:-))]

[EmilyA]

I can't answer any medical questions, but I can answer the one about gites. We moved here in 2005 and because of the way the "reforms" were introduced in 2007 we lost our cover and couldn't get private cover because OH has hypertension. Thanks to the efforts of Deb and co we would have got cover again via CMU three weeks after our E 106 ran out, but because we were worried sick by it all we had opened a business by then. We have a small cottage in our garden which we ran as a gite business under the micro-entreprise scheme. We paid about half of what we took in cotisations, but we made enough to put a bit of value into the cottage and we had a lot of happy customers, who came back year after year until we closed the business when we got to UK state retirement age.

The majority of our contributions (30+) years each were in the UK so we kept our rights to cover under the S1 as OAPs with the UK as our competent state. I don't know if the business can be made to work under the auto-entrepreneur scheme, but it works with micro-entreprise and ayant droit, minimum cotisations for us were about 2,800€ p.a. Of course you get the stress of dealing with RSI, but we are still alive - just!

Good luck and please pm me if you need to know more.

 

[cooperlola]

A little light relief:

[IMG]http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q103/cooperlola/Disabled.jpg[/IMG]

(Mods: if there's a problem with this I'll change it to an off-site link.)

GRECIAN'S LINK

[NormanH]

Superb [:D]

[EmilyA]

Says it all, doesn't it. [:(]

[NormanH]

He certainly seems to have a problem with figures, usually to his own advantage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5305242/Chris-Grayling-claimed-for-London-flat-despite-nearby-constituency-home-MPs-expenses.html

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/05/chris-grayling-overruled-stats-chief-to-spin-immigrants-as-fraudsters/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8498095.stm

[nomoss]

Aw, come on! What good is power and influence if you can't abuse it?

[stan]

[quote user="Grecian"]

Can I ask you if you have an appointment for your medical yet, and if so how long did it take for CPAM to send you the appointment. My wife has been waiting 4 months since being informed by DWP that she will have to have a medical here in France.

[/quote]

I received a letter at the beginning of July from DWP stating that they had written to CPAM and to expect a date for a medical. If it is months down the line, that would be good as it would mean just a little less time to make up a 2 and a half year period up to the 5 years when we can subscribe on the basis of a French person.

Thanks to Russethouse and all others for the info on the benefitsandwork website. I have been a member of this for about 5 years now and fully appreciate and understand the workings of the DWP and ATOS in relation to this cost cutting exercise. With the help of B&W, I have successfully claimed and received DLA Care and my wife, Carers Allowance.

I also fully appreciate that it is meant to sift out the timewasters and malingerers, but as per the Panorama programme, it appears not to dustinguish much between these people and the genuinely disabled and incapacitated. For myself, I keep saying that I am simply trying to be prepared for the worst (ie losing healthcare here), but then again possibly I am underestimating my disablement, and all may be ok.

In any case, from what I have read, the medical is probabaly better to be held here that in the UK.

[stan]

[quote user="Grecian"]

Can I ask you if you have an appointment for your medical yet, and if so how long did it take for CPAM to send you the appointment. My wife has been waiting 4 months since being informed by DWP that she will have to have a medical here in France.

[/quote]

I received a letter at the beginning of July from DWP stating that they had written to CPAM and to expect a date for a medical. If it is months down the line, that would be good as it would mean just a little less time to make up a 2 and a half year period up to the 5 years when we can subscribe on the basis of a French person.

Thanks to Russethouse and all others for the info on the benefitsandwork website. I have been a member of this for about 5 years now and fully appreciate and understand the workings of the DWP and ATOS in relation to this cost cutting exercise. With the help of B&W, I have successfully claimed and received DLA Care and my wife, Carers Allowance.

I also fully appreciate that it is meant to sift out the timewasters and malingerers, but as per the Panorama programme, it appears not to dustinguish much between these people and the genuinely disabled and incapacitated. For myself, I keep saying that I am simply trying to be prepared for the worst (ie losing healthcare here), but then again possibly I am underestimating my disablement, and all may be ok.

In any case, from what I have read, the medical is probabaly better to be held here that in the UK.

[bettyboop]

I had my ATOS interview a few months ago here in the UK, I retained my benefit,had to then attend an interview at the local jobcentre, because the benefit is now ESA (Emp.loyment and support allowance) to help me go to work - advisor useless as usual.

She advised me that the ESA was only payable for 6 months (ends Nov) and then it would be means tested,I cannot find anything in all the paperwork I have received to confirm this.

Will wait to see what happens in November.

[idun]

I do get confused easily.

IF your wife is so ill and on all these benefits, why isn't the S1 (E121) in her name and you piggy back it?

 

Also, and as you mentioned previous claims for your wife........... I don't understand how you can get all these carers allowances etc and then say that you are unfit for work?  I know some people who are carers and it is for them at least like a full time job and physically hard work. Maybe you pay for someone to come in and 'care'?

 

As I said, I am very confused now.

[cooperlola]

I believe that you are confused!  Stan is the disabled one, his wife is the carer.

What would happen I wonder, Bettty, if one were put on ESA but earned too much to keep it once it wasmeans tested?  OK you might lose the money, but do you lose the S1 too?  One is a benefit and one is the right to healthcare (the EU equivalent of your getting free NHS treatment if you'd stayed in the UK) so they are quite different, imho.  Has anybody any more idea than I of how the EU would treat this?  I reckon you would have a very good discrimination case in the European courts although I'm sure you wouldn't want it to get that far, Stan.

[stan]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

I believe that you are confused!  Stan is the disabled one, his wife is the carer.

What would happen I wonder, Bettty, if one were put on ESA but earned too much to keep it once it wasmeans tested?  OK you might lose the money, but do you lose the S1 too?  One is a benefit and one is the right to healthcare (the EU equivalent of your getting free NHS treatment if you'd stayed in the UK) so they are quite different, imho.  Has anybody any more idea than I of how the EU would treat this?  I reckon you would have a very good discrimination case in the European courts although I'm sure you wouldn't want it to get that far, Stan.

[/quote]

No, Cooperlola, I would not want it to go that far, but would if there was a significant chance of winning! I just find it annoying that the question is over the right to healthcare, which would be free to us anyway in the UK, and it is the UK who pay for our healthcare here anyway via the E121!

[idun]

OK I have understood now.

So as I said before, be very well prepared for your medical.

[stan]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Theoretically, reading your post, you would not qualify as you were aware that you had your medical problems before you moved and that was after the cut-off date.  However, I reckon that you'd have a good case to apply under the accident de vie provisions, since you were not aware that your E121 would be withdrawn, and this all asssumes that it will be!

[/quote]

Just going back to the first reply from Cooperlola. I was thinking of the options should the healthcare be withdrawn, and whether the preovisions of the "accidente de vie" would apply on the basis that I would not be aware that the E121 would be withdrawn. Another reply suggested that the "accidente de vie" provisions would not be applicable in my case, however I was just thinking of an anomaly that may be to my benefit.

The E121 (and subsequent healthcare) was issued on the basis that I have an underlying entitlement to Incapacity Benefit (although I do not receive any monetary benefit). This is because I am unable to work. The UK DWP are giving me a medical which may rule that I can work and so I lose my healthcare.

My UK Govt pension is in 2 parts, my ill-health pension and an injury award, both of which equate to roughly the same amount, although the latter is not taxed. The pensions, as I have said, are governement ones, and therefore somewhere along the end of the line, must be administered by the DWP.

When I was granted my injury pension, it came with (legal) certification that the level of pension reflected the fact that I was unable to work because of the effects of my injury. This cannot be changed and following a recent court case, is payable at that level until death.

So the DWP are contradicting legislation and the opinions of their own doctors (the doctors who sign off and sanction elegibility for that particular govt pension) if, following a medical, another doctor ( arranged by the DWP via my CPAM) says that I am fit for work. Surely a good basis for appealing should this occur.

Going back to the provision of the "accident de vie", surely in these circumstances, there is no way I could have forseen the DWP taking the course of action that may happen (ie I am found fit to work and lose healthcare), totally outwith my control and contradictory to what was decided 3 years ago when I was found unfit to work by the Govt sanctioned doctors.

Anyway, all this worry and huffing n` puffing may just be for nothing. I will wait for my medical and see what happens.

I would just like to thank everyone for their kind comments, support and advice and hope this may help others who may find them in the same situation as myself.

[cooperlola]

When we were lobbying for the healthcare rights of those pre-retired people already living here before the cut-off date, this was one of our concerns(ie what would happen if an ICB E121 (as opposed to the retirement version) were to be withdrawn for any reason?  To be honest with you, this aspect of things was left hanging somewhat since our little lobby group pretty much fell apart once the majority's problem was sorted.  However, the line from the French health minister then was certainly that the "accident de vie" provisions should cover such an eventuality (ie if you could not get private cover to the required standard because of your medical history)  even though we were vehement in our assertion that the provisions were not worded precisely enough to give the caisses involved the same message!

I think that somewhere in  dusty file somewhere, I may have a copy of her letter, or that of the UK ambassador at the time.  I'll try to find some of it for you but I won't be back home now until September.

With luck, it won't come to that anyway.  Let's hope so.

[stan]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

When we were lobbying for the healthcare rights of those pre-retired people already living here before the cut-off date, this was one of our concerns(ie what would happen if an ICB E121 (as opposed to the retirement version) were to be withdrawn for any reason?  To be honest with you, this aspect of things was left hanging somewhat since our little lobby group pretty much fell apart once the majority's problem was sorted.  However, the line from the French health minister then was certainly that the "accident de vie" provisions should cover such an eventuality (ie if you could not get private cover to the required standard because of your medical history)  even though we were vehement in our assertion that the provisions were not worded precisely enough to give the caisses involved the same message!

I think that somewhere in  dusty file somewhere, I may have a copy of her letter, or that of the UK ambassador at the time.  I'll try to find some of it for you but I won't be back home now until September.

With luck, it won't come to that anyway.  Let's hope so.

[/quote]

Thank you very much Cooperlola, that sounds promising. here`s hoping, as you say, that it does not come to that.

[stan]

Just a further thought (covering all the bases!). If it happened that my wife and I were allowed to join the healthcare system, is there a French website or calaculator to work out what sort of monthly charge would be applied to our income for healthcare? I am assuming that my works injury award pension part (which is not taxed in the UK and not declared here for tax purposes) would be taken into consideration in the calculation.

[cooperlola]

It is 8% of your RFR (income less allowances which is on your tax "avis") - plus you will be liable for 6% social charges on your total pension income (that amount maybe reduced if your income is low enough.)

EDIT : I do not know if the injury pension income is taken into account - I assumed you'd declare it somewhere on your French return but perhaps not. Maybe somebody else knows?

[stan]

[quote user="cooperlola"]It is 8% of your RFR (income less allowances which is on your tax "avis") - plus you will be liable for 6% social charges on your total pension income (that amount maybe reduced if your income is low enough.)

EDIT : I do not know if the injury pension income is taken into account - I assumed you'd declare it somewhere on your French return but perhaps not. Maybe somebody else knows?[/quote]

Thanks for that Copperlola. No the injury pension is not declared, neither is the Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit.

My RFR takes into account all our income (which is my pension only), but excluding the income in the previous paragraph. So, if the RFR is the total pension income, we would only pay 8% of this?...or is it 14% (ie 8% + 6%)?

[NormanH]

 As far as I know If you decide to go down the autoentrepreneur route  the amazing thing is that you are covered without actually having sold anything or given a service just by registering.

After that you have two years before your business is closed for none-activity.

Your wife for example could start up as a Home help and send in quarterly  returns showing the odd client, paying 20% of her income as social charges. She would be entitled to a Carte Vitale and you would be covered on it.

This is not at all what the system was meant for but there are plenty of people using it like that, though there are signs that this might stop..

[Grecian]

Well stan I think you have a rough idea by now from the people kind enough to respond to your original question as to what your options are, must say apart from keeping your E121, the other options all seem to come with a sting in the tail.

If you have been following the thread on B&W then you will be aware that it took 8 months for CPAM to send one lady an appointment for her medical, also once another lady had her medical, DWP took 5 months to give her a decision, which was favourable for her as she was placed in the support group. The encouraging part from reading the thread regarding the lady who was placed in the support group was the French doctor asked why she had been sent for a medical, as it was obvious she was not fit for work. So let's hope when our turn comes the French doctor will see your and my wife's disabilities in the same light. I guess you are aware that you can have your medical in the UK if you so wish, but I think we will take our chances here in France with a French doctor.

Personally if my wife loses here E121 we will be pursuing the 'accident de vie' route initially. Coops is your insurance industry contact a broker? Would be interested in contacting him to see if he could provide a letter of refusal. If that avenue fails I will be talking to my neighbour who is the mayor, never know he may be able to pull a few strings for us. Failing all of that it will be the AE route, it seems crazy to me that as it stands it seems you can obtain healthcover through the AE route without having to declare any income for 2 years. I won't let that trouble my conscious too much, if the French authorities do not want to take our 8% CMU-B payment plus another 6% in social charges on our pensions then it is up to them.

I think Coops made a good point, one which I tried to point out in my first post, but I think it came over a bit garbled. If you are placed in WRAG and lose the benefit after 12 months through means testing, the government is basically saying to you we know you are not fit for work, but we are taking your benefit anyhow, but in that instance would the healthcover still be provided? As I said before they continue giving you pension credits so I am not sure if they would be obligated to still provide an E121. I will enquire with DWP if the situation arises, but for now we are keeping our heads down, and our mouths shut!

All in all we could end up being screwed from both sides of the channel, on the UK side claiming if you can lift an empty cardboard box or climb 2 steps you are fit for work, so we are stopping you benefit. Then here on the French side of the channel, stipulating you must take out private health cover which is not obtainable with anybody who has pre-existing conditions. Must say it stinks both ways, I really cannot believe in this day and age governments can treat sick and disabled people in this manner.

All we can do stan is hang in there and hope things take as long as possible, then use whatever means possible to remain in the French health system, personally my wife and myself do not want to return to the dump they call the UK, irrespective of however many gold medals they may have won.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Grecian"]it seems crazy to me that as it stands it seems you can obtain healthcover through the AE route without having to declare any income for 2 years.....

I really cannot believe in this day and age governments can treat sick and disabled people in this manner.

[/quote]The answer to the first point is that AE was set up for the benefit of French nationals who would normally already qualify for health care by default, the fact that is bestows the same on immigrants is by accident not design and that is the reason it must always be considered at risk of being withdrawn.

For the second point the EU provides for the free movement of people and goods, not for early retirees to permanently move where they will and burden other countries social security systems..

[NormanH]

I don't really approve of the AE scheme being used like this, but I am a pragmatist and if all else fails in a case like stan's then I give the information in case it might be useful.

[EmilyA]

Stan has already said (if I have understood correctly)  that he has a cottage that he could run as a gite. This can be an entirely legitimate business whether it is AE, microentreprise or one of the other schemes. He may not make much additional money after cotisations, but when we did it we certainly brought money into the French economy.