Cholesterol

[idun]

Anyone notice this week that Professeur Even has said that 'bad' cholesterol is nothing but a lie created by the pharmaceutical industry. Basically we need cholesterol and just ridding the body of it, is very bad for the whole body, and affects many receptors ....... hormonal, immune system and neuro too.

The problems that we associate with cholesterol, can be other problems, rather than cholesterol. Prof Even, believes that taking statins leads to other more serious health problems.

How ensconsed having good cholesterol is in the way most of us look at health.

And then they discussed this with a GP and he said that they were at the bottom of the medical food chain, and likely would not have much information about this, but to discuss it with one's GP if worried. I find it all very worrying actually. Fortnately I haven't got high cholesterol, but I know enough people who do.

[Théière]

So true idun, people forget that their bodies manufacture 80% of the cholesterol.  So looking for the magic bullet to prevent this is trying to prevent the body from doing what it does normally and that is for a huge % of the worlds population as Statin sales are a mega huge income for drug Co's. 

Cholesterol is also brain matter so reducing it with statins may explain alot...........

Like wise replacing it with plant based cholesterol's (so called yogurt and spreads that reduce cholesterol levels)  An Australian study is looking at why we don't test for plant based cholesterol but do test for animal based cholesterol when plant based wraps up the animal version but as predominantly meat eaters our bodies are better at dealing with animal based cholesterol.

Interesting report here

hydroxypropyl methylcellulose is a thickener used in the food industry for things like cheesecake and other deserts yet it's cheap and appears to lower cholesterol without the side effects of statins and of course the drug companies wouldn't make a penny out of it.

hydroxypropyl methylcellulose.  from Wiki

[Val_2]

Well it killed my husband!

[Théière]

Something killed your husband, but was the cause really cholesterol or was that the label attached? Obviously I am really going to upset you discussing this so if you prefer I didn't that's fine.

There is a growing concern amongst the higher medical sources that the facts don't add up and give the correct answer. Sadly GP's must act according to the medical governing bodies information. An example of that is the NHS diet sheet handed out to everyone who has even the slightest raised cholesterol level, it was written a long time ago and forbids certain foods now known to contain high levels of good cholesterol whilst promoting some foods known to increase bad cholesterol intake. Bearing in mind our own bodies make 80% of the cholesterol anyway.

My fathers diet sheet allowed marmalade but not jam! Go figure? the marmalade has peel in some of it which is good for you, yes but they are both loaded with sugar which is bad for you and is the cause of so many medical conditions.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscience/2012/October/Cholesterol-Myth-What-Really-Causes-Heart-Disease/

[Patf]

So I could have been eating cream and cheese and butter and full-cream milk all these years? (Since having heart problem.)

[Théière]

Having a heart problem is exactly that, I note the sarcasm [:)] You must do what you must do unless the medical world knows how to reverse your heart problem what ever that is. We were talking cholesterol levels.

[Val_2]

Cholesterol was responsible for coating his main artery to the brain in layers over a lifetime of indulging in fat laden foods so much so that it closed up 90% before it was discovered and then too  late. A neighbour has had the same thing but at 80% blocked,managed to get a stent in quick. I know what the surgeon told us and what someone else says now has little bearing on, the fact that something bad did this and caused him to have type 2 diabetes.

[Sprogster]

Is this subject French relevant?

[idun]

Val2, Prof Even was saying that cholesterol is being blamed when the fact is that the human body is so complicated and in fact it is very dangerous to start blaming 'one' thing. Trying to diminish cholesterol as the 'one' evil thing will in fact make many people ill. And he believes that all these statins can do more harm than good.  A cardio surgeon also said that just blaming cholesterol was very blinkered.

I realise that you may think that being ill is not as bad as dying, but as far as I could tell, he realised that people would be ill and die from blocked vessels, just don't blame the cholesterol as 'the' serial killer.

[idun]

Is this french related, yes, Professeur Even is french, this was on french news and 5 million french people take statins.

Here is something I found on the internet.

Heart attacks, artery problems, cholesterol has been deemed to be

responsible for numerous illnesses over the last 40 years. In his book

"the truth about cholesterol" Professor Philippe Even rehabilitates

cholesterol and provokes the ire of his colleagues.

Is cholesterol really public enemy no.1? Don't be so sure. According to

the author of a book "4000 useless medications", Professor Even,

President of the Necker Institute has anti cholesterol medications in

his sights, he describes them as useless.

"All cholesterol is good. There is no bad cholesterol. cholesterol is

made in the liver and is essential for us, that which is not used is

returned to the liver."

Cholesterol is an essential constituent of each cell membrane,

particularly the neurones. It is the basis of the sex hormones,

cortisone and Vitamin D.

"Cholesterol is one of the most essential molecules for life, for your life. Don't touch it!"

Even if we find cholesterol in the plaques which block the arteries that

does not mean it was the primary cause of the deposits. the Professor

has looked at 50+ studies and his conclusion is clear, notably for anti

cholesterol medications - statins.

"They reduce cholesterol but reducing cholesterol does nothing for heart maladies. Statins are ineffective in 99.8% of cases"

This is not the opinion of the medical authorities who recommend Statins to people at risk of, or after an infarction.

"The indications are that Statins reduce the global risk of mortality by

10% and the reduce the risk of cardiac events by 15-23% (according to

Jean-Luc Harousseau, président de la HAS), "above all I would like to

avoid patients stopping Statins, they should talk to their doctors

first."

A study by the French Health Insurance scheme has shown that two-thirds

of prescriptions for statins were not justified. Today cardiac surgery

technology such as placing of stents has made immense progress. Patients

should remember the best way to prevent heart problems remains a good

diet, avoiding strong alcohol and a little exercise.

[Clarkkent]

Rather than rely on anecdote, have a look at the appropriate page on the Bandolier site. http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/cardiac/cholstat.html  This tells us what cholesterol is, how it is synthesised and what its effects are.

Another section: http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/booths/statin.html is devoted to studies on the actions of statins.

Bandolier is a site concerned with evidence-based medicine. In other words, medical practice based on the results of properly conducted and evaluated trials and experiments reported in peer-reviewed scientific and academic journals.

Phillipe Even appears to be more interested in political point scoring than medicine. Together with a colleague he has assembled a book which appears to be a polemic against Big (or even Any) Pharma - not that there is necessarily any thing wrong with that - but, if the comment of one of their opponents is correct, they appear to have done it by reporting anecdote and undocumented sources and presenting them as evidence.

I doubt the "truth" about statins is anywhere as clear cut as Idun suggests.

[Théière]

Interesting Clarkkent, but slightly worrying too.

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band133/b133-2.html

Higher mortality in lower cholesterol people............raises questions a long the lines of those we have seen prior to your posting

[Poppy]

About 12 years ago I was told I had high cholesterol and told had to take steroids and have liver/kidney checks every three months. I didn't take the steroids just stopped eating the cheese. It wasn't actually the cheese that was causing the problem just the fact I was eating nothing else but cheese at that time!! The mix and match reading was 4 which I think is now considered normal. Just goes to show that the human body is a very complex machine which even IMHO the experts do not understand.

For many many years I have dieted, well not actually dieted but eaten very little each day. I have only visited the doctor about 4 times in 40 years and in addition to the above blood test other visits were for accidents such as lime in the eyes and a tick bite. I am now 65 perfectly fit and taking no medication at all. My thoughts are the less (food and medicine)you put into the body the better, it will  if not abused look after itself. My mother always worried about how little I ate but my father who was very astute said there must be something in not giving the body too much to cope with.

[Tancrède]

The last time we skated around this pond, someone posted this tendentious link, which was sufficiently thought-provoking that I saved it :

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAE78.htm

'Perhaps even more important…  is the fact that a falling cholesterol level sharply increases the risk of dying of anything, including heart disease.'

It reassured me of the benefit of having a couple of shares in pharmaceutical companies producing this apparently bogus panacea.

[idun]

It ofcourse raises the point that not all drugs, including prescribed drugs or medical methods are 'good'.  Over the last few years quite a few drugs have eventually been withdrawn from use, when it became evident that their benefits were not necessarily as was first hoped, and worse still, were actually doing much harm, and the same can be said for some medical practices.

[Théière]

Doctors have to practice, every doctor would agree but I would rather not have doctors practicing on me.

[powerdesal]

I seem to recall that this topic was discussed, on this forum, some years ago. At the time I mentioned that I had been instructed to take statins for high cholesterol following a quadruple bypass.

This I did for a couple of years but discovered that I was told to take ever increasing doses and that I anticipated taking them ( at considerable expense ) for the rest of my life.

I decided at that point that I didn't want to keep dosing myself with chemicals and found another way. I changed my dietary lifestyle, adopting a high protein / low carb diet and, following routine blood tests over a period of months, found that my cholesterol levels came back to an accepted norm without the use of statins.

I discussed it with my Doctor and he was quite happy for me to continue without the statins. A bonus to the diet, which was not really a diet in the normally accepted sense, but rather a culinary lifestyle, I lost considerable weight, felt much fitter and generally much more healthy.

This lifestyle has continued for the last 16 or so years and my weight has remained almost constant ( +/- 1kg winter to summer ).

I probably should be having more blood tests to confirm it but as I am reasonably happy with my general health I have not bothered.

We eat healthily, plenty of protein, full cream milk, cream, fatty meat, bacon etc but keeping a wary eye on the carb levels.

It works for me, perhaps not for everyone.

[mint]

My sort of diet, Steve.

Eat everything but in MODERATE quantities.  And, if you are not disciplined enough to do plenty of exercise yourself., I suggest you get a dog (preferably some sort of Spaniel as their energy is prodigious).

I have read that exercise is very good for lowering blood cholesterol.  And I don't mean that you have to do any sort of "explosive" exercise, an hour's walk a day should do it.

[Chancer]

[quote user="powerdesal"]We eat healthily, plenty of protein, full cream milk, cream, fatty meat, bacon etc but keeping a wary eye on the carb levels. It works for me, perhaps not for everyone.[/quote]

Seemingly not Vals husband: Cholesterol was responsible for coating his main artery to the brain in layers over a lifetime of indulging in fat laden foods so much so that it closed up 90% before it was discovered and then too late

Which brings us back to the original posting, is it really cholesterol that is the enemy or our own habits/indulgence?

[Chancer]

A question for you Steve.

My diet now is very similar although with a very high proportion of fruit, like you for the first time ever I sustain a normal weight, you mentioned 1kg variation, I vary by 500g most days but have put on 1-2kg this winter that I didnt last winter, is it winters when you gain weight?

My intake and exercise regime havnt changed but being very lean now and perhaps as its a harsher winter I feel very cold which I didnt last year, I think that may be the reason.

[powerdesal]

Yes Chancer, it's in winter that I put on the weight.

I think it's possible that we are genetically disposed to increase weight in winter, the additional ''fat'' layer being a cold insulator. Alternatively it may be because we ( I ) tend not to do as much exercise in winter, less gardening, less work in the workshop due to the freezing temperatures in there, less cycling / walking.

Discounting the winter / summer effect, my weight varies by very little, no more than +/- a couple of hundred grams at any one time. I don't have the same sweatily active life that I had on site in the Middle east but even, I consider myself to be reasonably fit although age is certainly beginning to take it's toll on the bones, not helped of course by the cold.

[Théière]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="powerdesal"]We eat healthily, plenty of protein, full cream milk, cream, fatty meat, bacon etc but keeping a wary eye on the carb levels. It works for me, perhaps not for everyone.[/quote]

Seemingly not Vals husband: Cholesterol was responsible for coating his main artery to the brain in layers over a lifetime of indulging in fat laden foods so much so that it closed up 90% before it was discovered and then too late

Which brings us back to the original posting, is it really cholesterol that is the enemy or our own habits/indulgence?

[/quote]

Ahh yes Chancer but you to are following the fat is cholesterol idea, it isn't and your body makes around 80% of your cholesterol so the food intake doesn't really have an effect

So the hypothesis quietly altered, from cholesterol in the diet to saturated fat in the diet - or a bit of both. As if cholesterol and saturated fat are similar things. In reality, this could hardly be further from the truth. Saturated fat and cholesterol have completely different functions in the body, and they have very different chemical structures.

In reality, cracks in the hypothesis appeared right from the very start. The first of these was the stark observation that cholesterol in the diet has no effect on cholesterol levels in the bloodstream: 'There's no connection whatsoever between cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. And we've known that all along. Cholesterol in the diet doesn't matter at all unless you happen to be a chicken or a rabbit.' Ancel Keys PhD, professor emeritus at the University of Minnesota 1997.

Unfortunately for Val's husband and Val too the diabetes has a double whammy for cholesterol. 

Hyperglycemia (high blood sugar) leads to an increase in LDL cholesterol by reducing the ability of the body to remove cholesterol. When blood sugars are too high, LDL cholesterol and the receptors for LDL in the liver become coated with sugar (glycosylated), impairing the liver's ability to remove cholesterol from the bloodstream.

[mint]

[quote user="Gengulphus"]The last time we skated around this pond, someone posted this tendentious link, which was sufficiently thought-provoking that I saved it :

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CAE78.htm

'Perhaps even more important…  is the fact that a falling cholesterol level sharply increases the risk of dying of anything, including heart disease.'

It reassured me of the benefit of having a couple of shares in pharmaceutical companies producing this apparently bogus panacea.



[/quote]

Although I have not seen your link before, I have looked at several studies whose conclusions are similar to those there.

I think correlation is one thing, but a causal link quite another.  We make fools of ourselves if we can't distinguish between the two.

[NormanH]

[quote user="powerdesal"]I seem to recall that this topic was discussed, on this forum, some years ago. At the time I mentioned that I had been instructed to take statins for high cholesterol following a quadruple bypass.

This I did for a couple of years but discovered that I was told to take ever increasing doses and that I anticipated taking them ( at considerable expense ) for the rest of my life.

I decided at that point that I didn't want to keep dosing myself with chemicals and found another way. I changed my dietary lifestyle, adopting a high protein / low carb diet and, following routine blood tests over a period of months, found that my cholesterol levels came back to an accepted norm without the use of statins.

I discussed it with my Doctor and he was quite happy for me to continue without the statins. A bonus to the diet, which was not really a diet in the normally accepted sense, but rather a culinary lifestyle, I lost considerable weight, felt much fitter and generally much more healthy.

This lifestyle has continued for the last 16 or so years and my weight has remained almost constant ( +/- 1kg winter to summer ).

I probably should be having more blood tests to confirm it but as I am reasonably happy with my general health I have not bothered.

We eat healthily, plenty of protein, full cream milk, cream, fatty meat, bacon etc but keeping a wary eye on the carb levels.

It works for me, perhaps not for everyone.[/quote]

Interesting in that I have one carotid artery 100% blocked which caused my two minor strokes, but have never had high cholesterol.but I was on Vioxx (now banned at the time)

Like you and Chancer I am following a high protein / low carb diet because my neurologist (not the cardiologist) put me on a rather high dose of statins (40 mg Avorestatin) even though I was only just into the relevant sector because of all my risk factors, but she wanted to be sure that the other carotid didnt block up too for obvious reasons.

This is the only time I have deliberately not taken a prescribed medicine.

[Patf]

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks Théière.

Next time I go for my repeat prescription I'm going to ask my doctor what he thinks

a) about staying off foods such as cream and butter, and

b) do I need to continue taking Pravadual - pravastatine 40mg, aspirine  81mg.

I have regular blood tests and the good and bad cholesterols have been within normal limits.