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RE-APPLYING FOR CMU


frenchdc
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Every year since 2004 we have had to re-apply to join the CMU. I joined under my wife's E106 which makes us slightly different but have both had our carte vitale since 2004 and paid CMU premiums when asked. I am 55 and my wife 54, she took an early private pension last year. We sent off the usual forms filled in and have had them returned by CPAM asking us for a printed S1 or a refusal from Great Britain. What an earth is going on? We have lived here in France for almost 10 years, paid our taxes every year. Is this just a mistake or is this a new rule.

Any help greatly appreciated

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 Not just you. Talking to a friend a couple of days ago who has to sort out the paper work for the employees in the company she works for, told me that the Secu are asking for all sorts of stuff and proof they have never asked for before. Especially when renewals come up.

I don´t see how you can get round it, ask Newcastle for an S1 and when they send a refusal, hand it in. But don´t be surprised if they mess you round even more.

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Perhaps the declaration of pension funds on your impots sur les revenues form, if it is for the first time this year, has caused them to think that she is receiving a UK state pension (not taking into account her age of course). Regards, Hester.
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[quote user="Hester"]Perhaps the declaration of pension funds on your impots sur les revenues form, if it is for the first time this year, has caused them to think that she is receiving a UK state pension (not taking into account her age of course).[/quote]

And so ... they see this as you then becoming an 'ayant droit' on your wife's SI and the costs of both of you being met by the UK instead of you contributing. So no wonder URSSAF/CPAM want you to be in receipt of a UK old age pension. We are very much in the same boat and have had to jump through hoops this year.

Our local CPAM office was filled with all kinds of people we do not normally see there ie disabled/elderly all looking thoroughly confused ... so I expect it is an exercise in trying to shave as much off costs as possible by trying to find some other party/country/regime to foot the bill instead of themselves.

Sue

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 I expect it is an exercise in trying to shave as much off costs as

possible by trying to find some other party/country/regime to foot the

bill instead of themselves.

I don't think the maths are as clear as that.

While people on an S1 have the costs of treatment met by the UK they don't contribute to the French system either by côtisations towards the CMU (8% I believe) or through Social charges in either country, where French retirees contribute around 7%, (and which I think are due from those on the CMU on top of the 8%)  so there is a loss of income involved for France when British people come off the CMU.

So while the costs of an illness are met by another country France gets no steady income from healthy British OAPS, so the costs of building, maintaining and reimbursing the debt of the social system are left for the French to pay.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Which is as it should be, given that people who have lived here for years and years do not even have a vote.

France cannot have it both ways.[/quote]

You do know how to wave a red rag don't you [:D]

I have been here for years, and don't have a vote here or in the UK.

I do however have to pay:

1) UK income tax which is higher than the amount I would pay if I were allowed to be taxed here

2) French income tax

3) French social charges on all my pensions.

That rather suggests to me that both countries want it both ways..

Of course I will be lectured at because I should have known all this and told that since I no longer live in the UK I shouldn't be allowed to have a say in how my taxes are spent...

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[quote user="NormanH"] I expect it is an exercise in trying to shave as much off costs as

possible by trying to find some other party/country/regime to foot the

bill instead of themselves.

... so there is a loss of income involved for France when British people come off the CMU.

[/quote]

Hang on; if I am right then it was France that wanted to change from the flat sum they rec'd for each healthy or non-healthy UK expat; about £4000 per year each person, to the system whereby all health costs were paid to France in real terms by the UK, as France said it was losing money as the costs were more than the flat sum.

[quote user="NormanH"]

So while the costs of an illness are met by another country France gets no steady income from healthy British OAPS, so the costs of building, maintaining and reimbursing the debt of the social system are left for the French to pay.[/quote]

If it was France that opted for the change in payment method then I agree it seems a daft option for them to have chosen.

Sue

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[quote user="NormanH"] I expect it is an exercise in trying to shave as much off costs as possible by trying to find some other party/country/regime to foot the bill instead of themselves.

I don't think the maths are as clear as that.
While people on an S1 have the costs of treatment met by the UK they don't contribute to the French system either by côtisations towards the CMU (8% I believe) or through Social charges in either country, where French retirees contribute around 7%, (and which I think are due from those on the CMU on top of the 8%)  so there is a loss of income involved for France when British people come off the CMU.
So while the costs of an illness are met by another country France gets no steady income from healthy British OAPS, so the costs of building, maintaining and reimbursing the debt of the social system are left for the French to pay.
[/quote]

I understand that France gets a payment of around £3,000 per annum per Brit OAP with an E121 (or S1) from the UK government whether the said pensioner is healthy or not.

That seems a pretty steady income to me [:D]

 

Edit: It appears from the post made while I was replying that the basis for payments form UK has changed, so that actual costs are met.

In which case, your case for complaining seems even weaker.

 

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 I suppose it is an actuarial calculation, but I would maintain that as only the actual costs of treatment are paid by the UK,  not the costs of building, maintaining educating and training staff etc which are a large part of the budget, and that as French nationals have by their contributions while working(and those of their employers) paid for this all their healthy working life, and continue to do so once retired to the tune of around 7% of their pensions then British pensioners are getting a cheap deal in comparison.

Pierre X works for 40 years, paying social charges along with his employer which build up the fabric of the health system

He then retires on a pension of 20,000€ and enjoys 10 years of good health, but pays 1400€ a year in continuing contributions on top of the 40 years he has already paid towards the system.

Peter Y works in the UK for 40 years paying tax and NI contributions towards the NHS. None of this has benefited the French system in any way.

He retires to France on a pension of 20,000, and enjoys 10 years of good health, but pays nothing either to France or the UK, unless he has a government pension in which case part of his income tax might go towards the NHS.

In this situation the French coffers have been rather less amply filled by the British retiree than by the French one.

Although I wasn't actually complaining I would point out that I pay tax in the UK, part of which goes into the NHS which I do not use, as well as paying social charges in France.

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I think that, if you were to be able to accurately calculate the number of people who fit the scenario you describe, Norman, the numbers would be so small as to make very little dent in the overall deficit of the French health service. A similar argument to that frequently presented to justify the cost of funding, say, winter fuel allowance for those previously denied the payment.

Anyway, smile, things could be worse. If you were American you'd be paying US taxes for the rest of your life wherever you lived.

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Nice piece of spurious nonsense, Norman but OK for a grumpy old man, I guess.

If we follow your logic then noone would ever be able to leave their home parish as they would never have paid their share elsewhere. Unless you have a moving in tax.

You forget to add that the French have benefitted from an exaggeratedly generous social system throughout their lives which incomers have not had access to..

One might however take issue with the British Government who are denying the French their share individual tax revenues by taxing the pensions of former government employees who have chosen to expatriate themselves.

And the denial of various allowances which do not exist in France.

In many ways, being an expatriate has a lot of downsides too.
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[quote user="NormanH"]

Although I wasn't actually complaining I would point out that I pay tax in the UK, part of which goes into the NHS which I do not use, as well as paying social charges in France.

[/quote]

IF it's any comfort ... you are not alone Norman [:(]

Sue

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[quote user="woolybanana"]

One might however take issue with the British Government who are denying the French their share individual tax revenues by taxing the pensions of former government employees who have chosen to expatriate themselves.

And the denial of various allowances which do not exist in France.

In many ways, being an expatriate has a lot of downsides too.
[/quote]

And all for the joy of living here ... not that I am complaining you understand.

Sue [:)]

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If words of wisdom have not yet been forthcoming, I suspect that we do not know. However, to take a punt, my guess is that something on your tax form had changed which means they have decided to go through the application process all over again. BUT the rules do seem to say that you are entitled to health cover if you have been here more than five years.

Probably they want to decide how much more they can screw you for as they are justifying their grossly over personned departments by spending a lot of time looking for pennies.
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[quote user="frenchdc"]

Now we have all had our say, can anybody clarify exactly what the rules are please!

[/quote]

I am not sure the rules have changed, they are just being used differently, as they have a habit of doing here.

I think Hester (page 1) got it right; the advent of a pension arriving on the scene makes CPAM think you are receiving the Old Age Pension with the resulting demand for the S1 (so the UK can start paying for you both). Perhaps you need to show your lack of an S1 by obtaining a 'No' letter from the UK or writing a 'déclaration sur l'honneur' letter to that effect. We had to write one some years ago for something similar;  a lot depends on your local CPAM.

Other than that, as I said, CPAM are tightening up on which people have the right to receive health care - it affects all nationalities, even the French - to see if CPAM itself can save a few euros. They are also making deeper enquiries into income received as some people were claiming CMU de Base and CMUC fraudulently; the form has changed slightly this year to reflect this.

Sue

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If you're registered on the Ameli site (which is worth doing anyhow) you could try messaging them to say that you won't be eligible for a state pension until you're 66 so not for 11 years and will therefore need to continue paying 8% to URSSAF. I've found that messaging works really well with swift, helpful replies. 
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But do the french understand that there are not variables in when one can get a full state pension????? There are certainly variables in when the state pension is granted in France and I would assume that they would assume that it would be the same in the UK.......... ??? I would go for a refusal letter from the UK, the secu would surely prefer that.

NH, now now, you chose to live in France and stay in France. You have been in France quite long enough to take french nationality if you want and get that vote you so desire. Life is full of compromises, always. So now you have to chose, and you have a few choices. Move back to the UK and get your vote back. Stay in France and become french and vote in french elections. OR remain as you are and put up with your current situation........ simple really you know![:D]

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[quote user="frenchdc"]

Now we have all had our say, can anybody clarify exactly what the rules are please!

[/quote]

The rules have always been clear and available:

http://www.ameli.fr/assures/droits-et-demarches/par-situation-personnelle/vous-avez-des-difficultes/cmu-de-base-une-assurance-maladie-pour-tous/les-conditions-pour-en-beneficier.php

Lors du renouvellement de vos droits à la CMU de base, vous devrez :
  • justifier de la stabilité de votre résidence et de la régularité de votre séjour.

    La

    stabilité de votre résidence est appréciée au regard de deux critères

    alternatifs : foyer habituel et permanent ou lieu de votre séjour

    principal en France métropolitaine ou dans un département d'outre-mer

    (la notion de séjour principal s'analyse comme une présence effective de

    plus de 6 mois) ;
  • justifier de vos ressources : avis

    d'imposition, bulletins de paie, attestations Pôle emploi, capitaux et

    valeurs mobilières ou immobilières, revenus perçus à l'étranger ou

    versés par une organisation internationale, même s'ils ne sont pas

    imposables en France...
  • ne pas avoir de droit au titre d'un autre régime de protection sociale.

Il

est important de signaler à votre caisse d'Assurance Maladie tout

changement intervenant dans votre situation (mariage, divorce, reprise

d'activité, transfert de résidence à l'étranger....).

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Update - have spoken to both english speaking and french speaking CPAM, both say I must obtain s1 or s1 refusal from UK and what has really upset me is that they will not give me a rendevous at my local office. I have spoken to Newcastle who are sending the necessary s1 refusal which I understand they are sending out "hundreds". I will keep you posted but right now I am furious as I am going into hospital next month and do not need this sort of aggro. I have lived here almost 10 years and paid what has been asked, is this a sign of things to come.

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Same thing with my husband and I, under pension age lived here and contributed for 12 years suddenly this year asked to produce S1 or refusal.

We went in to Rochefort CPAM and argued the case, in the end they got us to sign déclaration sur l'honneur, but we are still waiting to hear if this will be acceptable.
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But the rules say:

Lors du renouvellement de vos droits à

la CMU de base, vous devrez :

ne pas avoir de droit au titre d'un

autre régime de protection sociale.

That is to say you have to show this when you re-new.

They are simply asking you to provide evidence in the form of an S1 refusal.

Perhaps they haven't been strict about this in the past, but with the general tightening up they are putting their foot down.

I am not sure what purpose a rendezvous at your local office would serve until you have the paperwork in order.

I don't quite understand either what you mean by "is this a sign of things to come", but if you mean more and more cuts in what is covered, and a more stringent attitude to applying the rules I think that the answer is "Yes".

The budget for Social Security has just been published and cuts are being made:

http://www.lemonde.fr/sante/article/2013/09/26/budget-2014-l-assurance-maladie-encore-loin-de-l-equilibre_3485203_1651302.html

Tightening up on paperwork is irritating but possibly necessary to avoid fraud (not on your part I am sure, but you suffer because of the actions of others)

I am sure we all wish you the best of luck for your Hospital treatment and a swift recovery.

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I understand your point NormanH but in the specific letter they send us each year (and this year is no exception) they do not ask for proof that we have no affiliation to another health system they merely ask for proof of resources and residence by way of an Avis d’imposition . The request for an S1 or refusal of S1 came in a a subsequent letter. I guess my problem with this is what would a refusal of an S1 prove -having lived here and contributed to the system for 12 years and holding a carte vitale and attestation dated back to the beginning of our affiliation surely a refusal of S1 would only show we are not lying about our age and the fact we don’t get a UK pension and even then our year of birth is clearly written on each Avis d’imposition.

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