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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]I can't imagine turning UK TV back on. I can't believe you did that Chancer !!!!! I am not saying French TV is any good....cause it's not... but UK TV is so depressing. It is truly awful. Even when I go back to the UK I can't bare to watch it. I can't have it on. If you stop watching UK TV for a year you will never miss it. [/quote]

 

You are right, I didnt miss it but got it to try and arrest the decline in my English comprehension and speech, now that I have the choice I am too weak willed to Watch the inferior one, I do agree that most of the UK TV is K-rap and I say that safe in  the knowledge that I have never seen any of the programmes that I am calling rubbish [:D]

 

And as for you not imagining ever switching back on UK TV does that mean that you once had it in France? And also am I mistaken that when you and the family moved to your apartment in Paris that you were not asking on another forum how you could recieve UK TV without having problems with the building owners? - Did I imagine it? Remember that there is a search function if I could be bothered.

 

in any case I am sure that at some stage you will get UK TV to benefit your bi-lingual children.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]The only way you can adequately understand spoken French is to turn off UK telly.

You can't do both. You have to tune your hearing into 'French' and the various accents, tones, dialects ect.

If you spend your days watching UK TV or at night your brain will not be able to cope. I guarantee that after two or three months you will start picking out more words being spoken. What will then become a problem will be tuning your hearing/brain back into English.[/quote]

I have to admit initally when I moved to France, on a whim, and had no french to start with, and the ONLY option was french tv or radio or nothing that by the end of the day, my brain would feel fried with all the incomprehensible french. Still, those were the days that it went to a dot in the middle of the screen when the closedown screen came up at a relatively early hour.

My kids were not able to see UK tv until they were 14 and 12 and initially had a choice and they preferred UK tv.

I remember seeing The 13th Warrior and the way the lead character learns a new language was remarkably like I did. The odd word emerging from the incomprehensible, then another and eventually some sort of sense of the language. Long hard struggle for me.

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Learning is a funny thing. Some learn by doing, others learn by reading and studying. Some learn by trial and error, others won't even begin till they've planned and are confident they'll get it right. One size, regrettably, doesn't fit all.

I've been speaking French for 50 years. I still make mistakes and I'm pretty sure I always will now. I can count the number of hours in all that time I've spent watching French TV and it accounts for ***all.

Over the last 12 years or so, I've been teaching languages to adults. I've seen it all in that time, but it boils down to only one thing really: hard work and perseverance. There's no magic bullet and no brilliant easy solution. If there was, someone, somewhere would have made a fortune with it by now.

Some people can crack it easily, probably because of the way their brains are wired, or because they're interested, or because they really, really want to. Others find it a struggle and it becomes a case of whether (and for how long) they can persevere. If there's any luck involved, then I'm one of the lucky ones, because my brain seems wired for languages. But never ask me to do maths.
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I was given some good advice by someone that had come here as a homeless and penniless teenager and made a life and career for his-self.

 

If a man is really hungry he will find a way to eat.

 

I could add to that that the man or woman that is not really hungry will say that eating is more difficult when you are older [:P]

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I totally agree that one size does not fit all.

@ Chancer, yes we have UK telly at home (not Paris). The kids used to watch CBebies but now they think UK telly is null. It is there if they want it but they don't. It is not 'French life' it is not 'French culture' so it does not connect with them. That is an important point. To be fair it does not connect with me.....well aaprt from Inspector Morse.

That is why it makes me laugh when expats say French TV is cr@p. It is a cultural thing. Which brings me onto another point.

People say they want to move to France for the culture, the way of life and all the other ridiculous cliches. They also say we have 'rusty' French and will pick it up the language as we go along and find a job LOL.

That begs a question, how do they know what the way of life is in France, the culture and everything else if you don't speak the language. Do they go by what FE tells it is like ? How does it work ?
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[quote user="Sprogster"]It appears that genetic factors as to how your brain is wired do indeed significantly impact an adult's ability to learn a foreign language. Link below:

http://brainblogger.com/2016/06/26/can-we-predict-which-people-will-be-better-at-learning-foreign-languages/[/quote]

I am quoting Sprogster's post because, at end of his link, is this little gem:

[url]http://www.strategiesinlanguagelearning.com/best-language-learning/[/url]

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Some of the stuff in the link is good, Mint, but I absolutely disagree that to learn a second language you have to "let go of your first language". That doesn't fit with what we know about language learning and bi-lingualism. Children learning a second language do much better if they have a rich first language on which to draw and it is surely in nobody's interest to lose a language in which they are fluent.

I think as an adult language learner you need to be clear about your objectives (chat to neighbours, deal with everyday life, write a dissertation) have a structure to your learning and have sustained exposure to speaking, listening, reading and writing in the target language.

I agree that listening to radio, watching TV, reading in French and talking to a range of people is necessary, but I certainly don't think you have to cut yourself off from your own culture.

One thing I have personally found difficult is to seek out the opportunities to have the kind of discussions and debates that I would normally have in English. I am now studying with the U3A and this is helping.

I haven't used it for French, but for learning Spanish from a basic level I have found the free Duolingo app excellent.
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Emily A wrote:

"but I certainly don't think you have to cut yourself off from your own culture"

That is an interesting point given what is happening in Europe at the moment with the refugee and migrant crisis. Sarky said a couple of weeks ago, 'if you want to live in France you have to live like the French' .

But British expats living in France tend to be very much at odds with French culture. Reading around the subject, many British want Britain in France and really don't like many things French. Certainly those living in Expat areas tend have more trouble integrating in France than those that don't for that very reason.

I am not saying you should or should not but I think there is a link to 'dropping ones culture' to successful integration within another country. You can see how it works and does not work in the UK.

Do the French want hundreds of English villages in France ?

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I think it depends what you mean by culture. I will always want to watch films, read books, have lengthy discussions in English as well as French. I will always want to explore the culture of other countries as well.

I will always be British in France even though I speak French, study in French, have French friends and take part in village life, including serving on the council. My son has lived in Spain for over twenty years, speaks the language fluently, has a Spanish wife and half Spanish children; he would still say that he is an Englishman living in Spain. Some of my French friends have children who live and work in the UK. I think they would be horrified by the idea that they had to somehow become British.

I do know a few British people who don't mix with the local community and I think that is ill-mannered and wrong, but frankly most of them now seem to have gone back to the UK.

I don't have much time for narrow-minded patriotism or nationalism to be honest.

Speak the language, understand the culture as much as you can, respect the way of life, be a good citizen - yes to those things, but I would not want to try and pretend to be something I am not.
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ALBF I agree with you when they say many british people 'don't like many things french' in fact I would even say they don't like french people.

I think that's largely to do with the language barrier - I know several expats who don't trust the french, and much of the reason is that they don't understand the language, and feel the french are laughing at them behind their backs. Usually these are the people for whom the french language is like double dutch. Then in return, the french don't trust them, and think they're stuck up, closed off.

But as someone wrote earlier, not many older people can learn a foreign language.

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I don't agree with the idea of letting your first language go either, having experience of children learning a second language and I myself have never stopped speaking and using English.

We have no TV at all in our apartment (I don't want English TV in France and I think a lot of French TV is awful). I enjoy listening to R4 mornings and evenings and read a lot of English language books (French ones too) and magazines and take part on several forums in English. I also know quite a lot of English-speaking people from a wide variety of countries, as well as a couple of hundred+ French-speaking people.

I speak quite a lot of English in France, as I give English lessons at our local AVF, so I plan and take the lessons in English, often meet members of the 'workshops' (not allowed to call them classes!) for coffee and they are very keen to have extra speaking practice. Of course, I speak French to many friends, neighbours and other locals, a lot of whom can't speak English at all. I take part in many activities in our area, cultural and walking groups etc, go to the cinema with French friends and neighbours. Not everyone wants to live in an English enclave, far from it, albf.

I've always jumped in to speak to anyone French at any opportunity, never worried about tenses or anything else. Some people, I know, try to get what they want to say correct in their heads before speaking, but by then the conversation has often moved on.

I started learning French 60 years ago, although from leaving school I mostly spent only about 2 weeks each year on holiday in France, so didn't get much practice. Later, extended periods in France spending time with non-English people were a great help.

But we're all different and learn in a combination of ways. I've always been grateful that I had a good base of French from secondary school, even though we didn't have any native French speakers there, so our spoken French was pretty dire.

I'm also very grateful that my parents scraped up enough money to enable me to go on a French exchange when I was 13, during which I found I'd started to love France, French people and the food - especially eating baguettes with chocolate pushed down the centre on the beach!
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@ Emily A

I agree with everything you say. I have always said that my 'trump card' to surviving in France is that I am British. I use that to my advantage because I don't and will never speak good French and in most situations French people who have equally as bad 'English' as my French will feel more relaxed to speak their own level of English and you get by. In that respect (keeping in context with the thread) learning French is not the bee all and end all of surviving in France. Although, you do need to get to grips with French culture. I think that is more important.

My problem has always been when there is a large concentration of British within a given area. Would the French (locally) be so forgiving when they spend their days dealing with expats with broken/non-existent French. Judging buy some forums the answer would be no. Furthermore, by living in such areas there will be less incentive to become more culturally aware of the country in which you live.

Of course the same logic applies to any country regardless of nationality. The French in UK is a good example. Having said that, if my OH moved to her dream quintessential 'Barnaby' village in the UK I think she would be very upset if she found out that all her neighbours were French.

My OH survived perfectly in the UK with broken English and to be fair it worked to her advantage. People were happy to help. Would it have been as easy if there were many other French people in the area. I don't thing so.
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Yes I agree - I would hate to live in a ghetto and quite like being the only Brits in the village. I don't think we have quite the same concentration of ex-pats / lifestyle migrants here in Normandy - but then I tend to avoid the social circuit, so I may be wrong.

However long I live here, I don't think I could learn to love the local cuisine (pork, apples, tripe and rice pudding), the dress style and the relentlessness of the five annual village events which have to be exactly the same in every detail every year (though I do go to them).

The smell of curry will always spread round the hamlet on a Friday night from my house.
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I think it is essential to 'let go' the first language in learning another one.

That has nothing to do with forgetting it or not using it with other speakers, but starting from your mother tongue is the biggest hurdle I observe with the British struggling to improve.

It fixes a structure that people then try to express 'word for word' in the second language, and  implies that there is something 'missing' in the second language , rather than accepting that other languages have other ways of doing things  that are valid in their own way.

Always start with the second language, and work back to English.

For a simple example if you start with  'I miss you'  I have heard English people come out with things like 'je  manque vous ' or even je rate vous'

If they had learned 'vous me manquez' or tu me manques' and then it was explained what that corresponds to in English the awful fake 'constructed' French that you hear wouldn't exist.

I have bi-lingual grandchildren (not in French as it happens) and hearing them switching from one language to the other with the two parents showed that they didn't start with one and then translate, they came out with the appropriate phrase in whichever language they were using.

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Oh of course that is true Norman, you can't translate literally, but I didn't think that is what the link was suggesting.

Actually my bi-lingual grandchildren do do that sometimes though. My granddaughter sometimes says "for what" (por qué) instead of why.

Despite "one parent one language" as the house rule they do get in a bit of a muddle sometimes. We just keep modelling the correct structure for them.
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[quote user="NormanH"]…rather than accepting that other languages have

other ways of doing things that are valid in their own

way.[/quote]Exactly.  Thank you for putting this all so lucidly.

[quote user="NormanH"]That has nothing to do with forgetting it or not using it with other speakers, but starting from your mother tongue is the biggest hurdle I observe with the British struggling to improve.[/quote]Quite.  And equally in the opposite direction (as my class tonight will certainly remind me).

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Using manquer  - I always have a problem with that verb. On Saturday our neighbour told us that Bill, her dog, had died. We've looked after him for her during the day since she was widowed 5 years ago.

One of the things I wanted to say was 'We'll miss him' but of course I got it wrong. I think she knew what I meant though.

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Norman Wrote:

"I have bi-lingual grandchildren (not in French as it happens) and hearing them switching from one language to the other with the two parents showed that they didn't start with one and then translate, they came out with the appropriate phrase in whichever language they were using"

Actually that is not always the case. Like I said earlier in the thread, my little girl swaps between the two languages effortlessly. My little boy tends to try and translate French into English. Furthermore, my little boy watches more films in English (sci fi fan) and has more exposure to the English language.

It goes to show that individuals are different in terms of how their brain deals with languages even when they grow up in a bilingual environment..
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My grandson is on the autistic spectrum. Despite the fact that they live in Spain and his mother and grandmother speak only Spanish, he much preferred to speak English a very small child and didn't speak Spanish until later (which was tricky for them). He used to watch CBeebies and copy the different accents perfectly. Once he went to school Spanish became his first language. My granddaughter has much more of a Spanish intonation when she speaks English. I suspect it is because she doesn't have a female / child model for the language (apart from Skype). When she is with us and her English cousins she comes on in leaps and bounds. They definitely learn in different ways.
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[quote user="EmilyA"]I find a lot of French language learners find it difficult to stop saying, "I am living here since"... That is obviously another confusion from L1.[/quote]

 

Thats what I say in English now [:(] as witnessed by the construction of many of my postings.

 

Was speaking to English clients this morning when a French person came for info, I found it very hard to switch back to French, a long discussion with an Italian this evening, I asked him French or English and he said English but we swiftly moved to French when I realised he was replying in broken French, he said lots of things the wrong way, got the wrong words etc  just as I do but for once it was not a barrier to good communication and we both felt at ease, I could see it in him as he became much more confident and vocal.

 

Later on when I took something to his room I was talking in English for quite a while before I realised.

 

And yet I am perfectly at home with speaking French to someone and them replying in English or vice versa according to the circumstances, the listening is no problem its speaking when switching languages.

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[quote user="Patf"]Using manquer  - I always have a problem with that verb. On Saturday our neighbour told us that Bill, her dog, had died. We've looked after him for her during the day since she was widowed 5 years ago.

One of the things I wanted to say was 'We'll miss him' but of course I got it wrong. I think she knew what I meant though.

[/quote]

Ah, Pat, but I had an easy way with that one because, in Welsh (which I did speak), we say, you are missing to me.

So manquer was fine, for that reason and not because I had to remember which way round it should be[:)]

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