AMERICANS WANTING TO MOVE TO FRANCE

[victor]

We have been living near Sete in southern France since 2001. From all the research I did prior to our move, I was under the impression that after 3 years we would be eligible for a Carte du sejour resident. After the 3rd year we were told we would have to wait 5 years.  We are retired and came knowing we could not practice our professions here. Each year we must gather up all the relevant documents and turn them in to the marie and wait for our new Carte.

We are now going on our 8th year here and are still classified as Visitors.  A French friend asked at the marie why we were always classified as Visitors.  The person in the section handling etrangers basically told her:  Well they are rich Americans and will never be classified as anything but Visitors.  They can live here and spend their money.  My friend was shocked as was I when I heard this.

Yes we are American, no we are not rich.  We moved here because we love France and raised our son in a French school in the States to prepare him to seamlessly move into a French school here.  We are suffering as are the English because of the high exchange rate but simply accept that.

The reason I am writing this is to find out if other Americans who came here like us, without planning to work, have received similar treatment.  We have done our best to be good citizens; however, it is difficult when you find out that no matter what you do you will always be treated differently.

[Anton Redman]

It might be worth having a look at

http://www.americansintoulouse.com/index.php

Over the years I have recommended them to a nunber of people and the feedback has been positive.

[Lori]

If you are in your 8th year here, someone is giving you the wrong info.

I am American and have lived here 9 years.  As I was entering my 7th year here (yes I could have done it after the fifth year), I applied for the permanent 10 year residency card.  It is an application (as I was reminded by the Prefecture) and can be refused.  Anyway, after about 3 months, I got my permanent residency card, allowing me to work, join the health system, etc.

If I were you, I'd go to your nearest Prefecture and speak to the person in charge of residency cards.   You might not be able to rely on the accuracy of your local Mairie.  Nice as they are here in Bedoin, they are not always up to date or accurate.

If you are in the Vaucluse (just a chance), I have some contacts that might help you.

The five year rule is pretty much all over the Internet, but it is also available from any French Consulate and normally is explained on their websites too.

Edit:  Sorry, I see you live in Sete.

[Sprogster]

Victor and Lori, since you came to France there has been a substantive tightening up on granting permanent residency status to US citizens and you can blaim the Fortress America immigration policy introduced under the Bush administration, that makes it all but impossible for EU citizens to obtain permanent residency in the USA, even as a retiree. In fact it was touch and go recently that the the US visa waiver programme was not scrapped and instead EU nationals now have to apply for a travel authorisation to visit the US over the internet at least two days before departure, get finger printed and photographed on arrival and are allowed into the US for a maximum of ninety days. If you over stay you are banned from the US for 10 years and there is no right to appeal!

The reason why this is relevant to you is that countries tend to implement their visa and immigration policies on a recipricol basis and as the US does not offer a retiree permanent residency visa to French or EU citizens, then France does not offer that flexibility to US citizens. I read recently that there are proposals to reduce the maximum time a US visitor can spend in the EU to 90 days bringing it into line with the restrictions imposed on EU visitors to the US.

Just thank your lucky stars you are not an EU national in the USA, as if you had been there as long as you have been in France, Homeland Security would have you in chains and on the first flight home! Unfortunately, it all comes down to politics.

[victor]

Anton,

I agree with you that the Toulouse site is excellent.  In fact that is a site I read a few times during the years we were researching our move to France.

[Sprogster]

Lori, just a thought but if you were married of living with an EU citizen and or of working age then that would have made a big difference to the success of your application.

I am presuming from Victor's post that they are both US citizens and probably retirees and therefore rightly or wrongly would be seen as a probable drain on the French health system, which they won't have contributed to. Don't forget that Brit retirees in France have their health costs in France reimbursed by the British government under the E121 scheme and no similar scheme exists between France and the USA.

[Sprogster]

Victor, the limitation of the Toulouse site is that it is mainly aimed at working Americans, moving to that area because of Airbus Industrie.

[Lori]

[quote user="Sprogster"]

Lori, just a thought but if you were married of living with an EU citizen and or of working age then that would have made a big difference to the success of your application.

[/quote]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.  I was no where near retirement age when I obtained my VISA (still am not) and I was not married to (or living with) an EU citizen.

We are now in the process of finalizing a Regroupement Familial VISA, following the new laws (also for an American citizen) and the process has gone very well, albeit very long.

We have had no problems, but we were aware of the laws before we submitted the requests.

[victor]

Sprogster,

In my opinion, I do believe that you have "hit the nail on the head."  Lori was lucky to have gotten her permanent residency when she did. ( Thank you Lori for your offer to help us!)  

We did apply for permanent residency at the end of five years. In fact my husband received a letter saying he would get a ten year Carte; yet, when his Carte arrived at the marie, it was only the one year Carte as was mine. The man who was the head of the bureau d'etranger in Sete at that time even called the Prefecture on our behalf.

Because of reciprocity, we were able to exchange our state driver's licenses for  French ones quite easily within the one year time limit. I firmly believe that the various changes the Bush administration made after 9/11 affected the way Americans were and are dealt with here.  Without question, it also does matter a great deal how the various Prefectures handle things. And again how the marie decides to act.  Where we are in the Herault, there are few Americans outside of Montpellier, basically a student town.  I doubt most Americans have even heard of Sete or the small village where we now live where the Maire seems to make the laws to serve whatever suits his purposes as do most politicians. Perhaps now that President Obama is in charge things will change, but in the meantime, Americans are being affected by the politics of the Bush administration IMHO.

About 2 years ago, either the Prefecture or the marie lost my son's  renewal papers and told us we had to resubmit them.  Well, he had left to study in California, thus we did not have posession of all the necessary papers.  When he found out, he basically said forget it and just returns for short visits.

After many discussions with French friends, we are trying to decide whether to just consider our dream finished or to hope Obama can mend the broken fences with France and other European countries. This is difficult when one loves a country as much as we love France.

Given our experiences, I would caution any Americans about planning to live in France UNLESS they are married to a French person or have strong French family connections here.

[Sprogster]

Lori, the fact that you were no where retirement age would have helped you, as you would have been seen as still economically active. Victor's problem is very different in that she and her husband are non EU retirees with no family connections in France, and as such may not qualify for a permanent residency visa. To be fair to France, I don't think any other country would be much different, as unfortunately most countries immigration laws are age discriminatory on the grounds of economics.

 

[victor]

Sprogster,

We have American health insurance and our insurer is the primary insurer.  We were told that we HAD to have the French insurance a year or so after we arrived here.  OK.  But it is not free to us because we have not paid into the French health system.  I tried to explain to them that we did not need French insurance, but no matter we had to sign up for it, and we pay 8% of our retirement income ( all of which comes from the States) for the French insurance and also pay over 3,000$ a year to the American insurer.

Prior to being told that we needed the French insurance, we just paid the full amount of the bill.  If it was high enough, we then sent the documents to our insurer in the States and received reinbursement from them.  We would never be a drain on the French health system.  One of the requirements in obtaining our long stay visa from the French Embassy in the States was proof of continuous health coverage from the States.

 

 

[Sprogster]

Victor, as I mentioned to Lori I don't think your main problem is that you are American, it is that you are both retirees. The fact is that most countries immigration policies are age discriminatory in that permanent residency visas are usually only made available to those economically active with special skills or wealthy entrepeneurs, unless you qualify by marriage or close family relations.

Most of the other members of this Forum are EU Citizens and therefore have the ability to move from one EU member State to another, as long as they do not become an economic burden.

I don't think you should consider your French dream over, as presumably you can stay in France as a visitor, and health costs in France, even privately, are a lot cheaper than the USA! 

[5-element]

Victor, this may be a long shot, but you might try to contact the group "Americans for Peace and Justice" , mostly in Montpellier but further afield in Hérault too.

http://www.americansforpeaceandjustice.org/Who%20we%20are/WhoWeAre.htm

Don't be put off if it seems a political group, as it covers a wide spectrum of political views and commitments (or not) and also serves a very useful social function - there are some really good, and interesting people in there, and you might just find someone who can help with the process. Do contact them with your issue, you never know, someone might just be able to give you some more insight into how things work in Hérault for American émigrés.

[Lori]

Victor - forgive me if this sounds like a silly question, but I am not totally sure of the answer, so wanted to ask:

Are you saying that you have formally applied (in writing) to either your Maire or Prefecture for a permanent residency card and you have formally been refused (in writing)??

Also, just to clarify (if anyone cares :-)  I obtained my permanent residency card in 2008. 

[victor]

Lori,

Remember the saying: There is no such thing as a silly question!

We were told in Sete to write a letter to the Prefecture requesting permanent residency.  After doing so, we received a letter which said my husband would get  a 10 year card and I would get a 5 year card.  Then when we actually received our Cartes, both were for one year.

With all the adjusting involved in our move and the shock of 9/11 still with us and some problems with our son, then a teenager, we just accepted it.

[victor]

Sprogster,

Being retirees was almost a requirement with the French Embassy.  In fact we both had to write a letter in French as part of our application stating that we would never need or apply for any position while living in France.  In addition, to supplement this we had to prove that we had sufficient funds to live here without the need of obtaining a job.  There was never any question about our age.

Such a letter has been asked of us here also.  The major issue of people coming into France is whether they are self sufficient given the massive unemployment here.

[Lori]

So you received a letter stating your husband would get his 10 year permanent residency card, but he didn't.  I'd take that letter back to the Prefecture, along with his card and ask that they correct it.  Sounds like a simple error to me.

I'm not clear on why you would not be entitled to the same 10 year residency card (assuming you both arrived in France at the same time).  I'd ask that too.  I would also follow up my visit (or appointment if they require one) to the Prefecture with a letter outlining whatever was agreed to (assuming there is an agreement).

[Lori]

[quote user="victor"]

Sprogster,

Being retirees was almost a requirement with the French Embassy.  In fact we both had to write a letter in French as part of our application stating that we would never need or apply for any position while living in France.  In addition, to supplement this we had to prove that we had sufficient funds to live here without the need of obtaining a job.  There was never any question about our age.

Such a letter has been asked of us here also.  The major issue of people coming into France is whether they are self sufficient given the massive unemployment here.

[/quote]

Victor - just FYI, I was asked to do the very same things and provide the same information/proof, among many other things.  I was asked prior to obtaining the Long Stay VISA and every year thereafter when renewing the annual carte de sejour.

[victor]

5-element,

I appreciate your suggestion and have read over the site.  Clearly, many of their positions are in line with my own regarding Bush and his war and the fact that so many innocent people were injured or killed and are still in harms way.

I guess my feeling is that the group has more urgent issues than the one we are facing.  I would not feel comfortable contacting them regarding my problems.

[5-element]

But the group is made up of many different individuals, some of whom may have had to face issues like your own -  there is a rumour for example,  that some people from the Béziers préfecture Bureau des Etrangers, are particularly unhelpful - no idea if this might concern you.

[Sprogster]

Victor, I think likewise you have 'hit the nail on the head' in that there is wide variation in the approach of individual Maire and Prefecture.

Dare I say there is anti Americanism to be found in certain quarters of the French establishment as like the Brits we are seen as the Anglo Saxons that are responsible for the current financial crisis!

[Joerger École]

Victor,

We have had the same experience as Lori in obtaining our 10 year card.  We are Americans, both retired (though I continue to do some work for a few months each year in the US), living in France since 2002.  After 5 years here we applied for and received the 10 year card with no problem.  The 10 year card was issued in May of 2007. I recall that we not only wrote a letter but we also filled out an application form. All transactions took place at our maire.  Something seems very wrong about your experience.  I suggest that you ask for a formal application form, write another letter explaining how you have integrated in France, consider it your permanent home, etc.  I think that someone is giving you bad advice.  I have no way of knowing for sure, but I think the "Bush immigration theory" that is being suggested is just that ( all respect to those that think this is the cause of Victor's difficulty).  Just for the record, I was not a Bush supporter and would gladly cast aspersions on anything his administration did to ruin relations with other countries.

James

[Sprogster]

Joerger Ecole, it is nothing to do with Bush, my source is a lawyer who advises on immigration that there has been a tightening of immigration control within the Schengen area over the last twelve months and the Us in particular has been effected.

America only introduced its pre travel authorisation requirements for tourists from Visa waiver entitled countries, which is mainly the EU, this February and it has caused a lot of annoyance in the EU as it is a visa all but by name.

If you were a Frenchman and found it impossible to stay in the US for more than 90 days, you would be pretty agrieved to find that American citizens could just arrive in France and stay as long as they like.

Internationally, if a country introduces new visa restrictions on other countries citizens then underrstandably it is to be expected the other country will reciprocate.

[Joerger École]

Sprogster,

I understand you point. I was not aware of that change.  I guess we were lucky to get situated here when we did. Best of luck to the OP.  Perhaps, as you or another poster said, the new Administration will modify the practice for the better. However, given all they have on their plate, I will not hold my breath.

Thanks,

James

[victor]

Lori,

The head of the etranger in Sete advised us to write a letter for a 10 year Carte, which I did. We were, however, never asked to fill out a form for that purpose. We received a letter back saying my husband would get the 10 year Visa and that I would get the 5 year visa.  Then when they arrived, we had the same one year Visitor Carte.  The man tried talking to the Prefecture to no avail.  The same thing happen when he tried to get my son a student visa so he could work during vacations.  He finally suceeded, but it took hin 2 years to convince them.

I must confess that I did not go in person to tht Prefecture to pursue our Carte.  I was just so depressed, plus we were having a horrible problem with our neighbor below.  When we first decided to move to Sete my husband went to France and just bought an older large apartment in a building containing only two apartments and did not check ANYTHING.  That nightmare cost us a LOT of attorney expenses even though she ultimately lost. ( In my prior life, I was a trial attorney so I was not easily intimidated by the things she tried to do.)  However, dealing with the French buracracy makes me shutter.