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Please help! My builder in France has gone bust


BQF
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Looking for some help here!

I have owned a house in Normandy since 2004 - had no problems whatsoever, has a loft conversion, central heating fitted (by french builders) and all has been OK.

I took on a new job a couple of years ago that meant I worked away quite a bit, so I couldn't get over to the house as often.  So, I hired one of these 'good neighbour' type businesses to look after my house.  They have been great - arranging gardening, landscaping, small repair jobs etc - no problems.  Because they have been so good I asked them to source some building work - knocking a wall down, a bit of making good, and fitting a large woodburner in my lounge and some associated building work.

They sourced a quote from an English builder registered in France, who has done work for them before.  The quote for the whole job was Eur3,000, and I sent a Eur1,900 deposit to include buying the woodburner back in September.

Heard today that the builder has gone bust.  Liquidator on the way etc.  The builder 'promises I'll get my money back', but I'm not hopeful.  They didn't buy a woodburner with the deposit funds (sounds like fraud to me - they must have known they were going bust).

Has anyone dealt with the French insolvency system?  Where will I rank as a creditor?  Any chance of getting my money back?  If anyone has been in this situation I'd love to hear how it panned out...

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I wish you luck and hope you get some help from forum people here. Our builder went under and promptly dissappeared. It wasn't fraud, just bad financial management. We lost about £7000 and had to find additional funds to finish the work. We never recovered any money and weren't the only people to lose out. I hope you fair better but be prepared for the worst.

Kong

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I am afraid there may be preferential creditors ahead of you in the queue, such as banks, tax authorities, social security etc, assuming there is any money left from which to recover. Given the - relatively - small sum I would be prepared to write it off. I say 'relatively' only because cases occur involving half finished properties abandonned by disappearing builders, that have cost their distraught owners many thousands of euros lost, and leaving them heavily in debt.

As a matter of interest, have your trusted caretakers anything to say about all this? Are there any other clients of this builder locally who are in the same situation as you? There is strength in numbers, not only for any legal action but naming and shaming which sometimes brings results.

Very sorry to read your post, and I hope you find a solution.

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Have to agree with Peter on this one.My Parisien friends are having a new house built here but the builders went bust in the autumn leaving them high and dry and having to find other artisans to continue the works which thankfully are now only internal as the shell is complete with roof,windows and doors. It caused them a great deal of trouble and some financial loss but they were told by the liquidators that they would probably get no redress as the RSI,Impôts,Banks and other major creditors have first payments with suppliers and then clients where outstanding but the reason they went bust was lack of cash,so obviously there won't be anything and as a SARL they were a limited company with their own assets protected.

There are, unfortunately, many businesses going under at the moment in France and more will follow no doubt in 2013 as things are going to get rough here.

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Already started here with the agriculteurs, fishermen and BF recently with staff still not happy.Poultry farmers here suffering since Doux went down and still in liquidation mode and cutbacks by the government on just about everything from medicines to benefits and more taxes to plug the ever increasing hole. You get almost afraid to put the TV or local radio on now for fear of what you might hear.
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[quote user="BQF"]Looking for some help here!

I have owned a house in Normandy since 2004 - had no problems whatsoever, has a loft conversion, central heating fitted (by french builders) and all has been OK.

I took on a new job a couple of years ago that meant I worked away quite a bit, so I couldn't get over to the house as often.  So, I hired one of these 'good neighbour' type businesses to look after my house.  They have been great - arranging gardening, landscaping, small repair jobs etc - no problems.  Because they have been so good I asked them to source some building work - knocking a wall down, a bit of making good, and fitting a large woodburner in my lounge and some associated building work.

They sourced a quote from an English builder registered in France, who has done work for them before.  The quote for the whole job was Eur3,000, and I sent a Eur1,900 deposit to include buying the woodburner back in September.

Heard today that the builder has gone bust.  Liquidator on the way etc.  The builder 'promises I'll get my money back', but I'm not hopeful.  They didn't buy a woodburner with the deposit funds (sounds like fraud to me - they must have known they were going bust).

Has anyone dealt with the French insolvency system?  Where will I rank as a creditor?  Any chance of getting my money back?  If anyone has been in this situation I'd love to hear how it panned out...
[/quote]

Whilst looking for something else I came accross some information which may help you.

Assuming the builder is properly registered and you have either his SIRET number or his full name and address (or both) you can visit your local Chambres de Métiersband have a chat. They may be able to tell you the current situation with the person concerned and give you advice on what to do.

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While anybody who loses money due to a company going belly up has my wholehearted sympathy, I have never, or would never give any builder; money in advance. I have at some times bought certain items or materials and had them delivered to me at my address for a "handyman" to use and fit. But money in advance to a builder ? No way. After all if a builder can't afford to buy standard items he can't be very financially stable and that should be a warning. As I said I am sorry for your predicament, but as others have said you will be at the back of the queue.
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I agree Nick.  We've had quite a lot of work done here, by which I mean we've spent a lot, but on most of our devis the deposit shown was never in fact needed. On the odd occasion that I have paid a deposit I've taken the view that if the worst happened I would write it off to experience, but it has never been more than a few hundred euros in any case.  My worst experience, 9 years ago, was with an architect before we actually moved; I paid 800€ as a deposit for drawing up plans and overseeing extension work here. He went bust before we actually made our final move, but all the locals were very disapproving of my having paid ANYTHING in advance. Certainly taught me a lesson, I lost the money and got absolutely nothing for it.

To my mind there is no good reason that a builder would need your money up front; it's probably a sign of impending collapse or just poor cashflow manangement, but whatever, it's a clear indication to avoid this guy/company.

Good luck to the OP, but don't hold your breath; you can try pursuing it through the legal channels, but probably best just to move on and put it behind you. 

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Around here they just wont work without it, there is no negotiation, no "OK when you arrive on site with materials we will do a valuation and I will weigh you in, thereafter at the end of every week", its just take it or leave it.

What really shocked me was that a plaquiste working for me on the black for a forfait, just doing the bandes and with me supplying all of the materials and not just any but it had to be what he wanted, he insisted on 50% up front before he would accept the job and then he would think about when he might do it [:-))]

Common sense won through that time but only because his uncle is a good friend, he told me that it was because he was frightened that he would do the job and then I would not pay.

The more I see and challenge things like that around here, it always comes back to the same reasons and I firmly believe that these people judge others by their own morality. More fool them.

Editted, When I ran my business in the UK I used to ask for 30% deposit with order because thats what all my competitors did, in fairness I did have to buy a lot of materials up front but they were on 30-60 day account terms and in most cases could either be used on another job or sent back.

I used to insist on it with new and unknown commercial customers as they would not be paying on completion like domestic ones, however after the first job the deposits rarely came with the order and I didnt insist on it.

The domestic customers rarely paid a deposit, and most of the time never even signed and returned the order so I could have been caught out but never was in fact, they would just phone up and say "when can you do the job?" and that was that, they did however always pay on completion.

I can only in fact think of two domestic customers who sent me the signed order together with a deposit cheque, if I were to have judged my customers like the artisans around here do I would have worked for only 2 weeks in 12 years!!

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Well to be honest both in the UK and here we have paid 30% up front, 30% half way through, 30 at the end and a 10% retainer for one month or until the snag list has been completed. Both here and in the UK I have always added a penalty clause re time. I suggest that I don't mind what reasonable time period they give to do the work providing they stick to it, if they don't then I get to keep the 10%. So far I have not had a problem and everyone is happy. Don't forget also these agreements where you pay the supplier direct and the tradesman separately for the work is really a scam. All they do is half the difference with the builders merchant on the trade price and retail price. I got caught on that when nobody thought I could understand French and I have never paid this way since.

The one thing I see or hear about time and time again is people having grief with their building work and not always with English builders in France either, the French can be just a tricky. What gets me is why so many of these type of Brits seem to leave their common sense on the other side of the channel and go for the first person to look at the job. I always get three quotes, I always ask to see there documentation re insurance etc and I always get their siret number and check it on the web. I always write on the Devis that no extra work will be paid for unless it is accompanied with an Devis for the work signed by both parties. That way everyone knows where they stand and the builder knows exactly waht he is going to get paid for, in short it protects both of us.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

 Don't forget also these agreements where you pay the supplier direct and the tradesman separately for the work is really a scam. All they do is half the difference with the builders merchant on the trade price and retail price. I got caught on that when nobody thought I could understand French and I have never paid this way since.

[/quote]

If I buy the product or materials I don't  tell the handyman where it comes from, so how is he going to get a split of my money. No way pal; my money my discount. As for Chancers local mob, are you telling me a bloke working on the black wants cash up front and you agree, I had a different view of you and your lifestyle Chancer, I'm very disappointed. [:D]

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Yes Nick but a lot of these 'handymen' either registered or not for various reasons set up an account with your details and put the materials that they use on your work on your account. You then pay the account and you then pay the 'handyman' separately just his or her wages.
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[quote user="Quillan"]Yes Nick but a lot of these 'handymen' either registered or not for various reasons set up an account with your details and put the materials that they use on your work on your account. You then pay the account and you then pay the 'handyman' separately just his or her wages.[/quote]

 Q please read very carefully what I said, I buy the materials; give them to the handyman, I then pay the handyman after he has used the materials I have bought to do the job I have asked him to complete. There is no way in the world would I allow a builder, be he  French, British or Chinese or Martian to be able to access any accounts in my name. Anybody who does is stark staring raving bonkers. [:D]

Edit: Although I'm not a builder just someone who is very mean when it comes to spending my hard earned, I have rebuilt/re-modelled three houses and so am aware of builders and allied trades, as I have project managed all three jobs.

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No Nick I didnt pay him up front, I probably didnt explain it very well, his uncle after promising me that he was an honourable guy and would definitely come and do the work after he had been paid for it, realising that it wasnt cutting any ice then worked on his nephew.

He promised him that I was an honourable guy and would pay him for his work, that didnt cut any ice either and he had to stand as a guarantor [:-))] Now knowing how unhonourable his uncle is it doesnt say much for his judgement that he accepted the deal.

His uncle, my friend once again probably judging others by his own morality told me that the deal was done but that I would have to pay him cash at the end of each day, which I did.

Another time I had accepeted a devi for sprayed enduit, it was a large job that I finally did myself, the devi asked for 30% up front and the guy accepted that I would pay it the first day on site when they started work properly leaving the materials for the whole job. He couldnt tell me when they would start other than it would be at least 3 months.

After a couple of weeks during a prolonged rainy period a van of guys turned up wanting to start work and asking for the deposit,  I suspect that they werent even his guys but subbies, they said that they had access problems on the scheduled job so he had asked them to bring my job forward, I am pretty certain that they had just been rained off, they had no materials and claimed they were on their way to get them but needed the cheque first, I spoke to the guy on his mobile and said OK, but that I could only withdraw €250 per day on my UK bankcard but would do that every day that they worked till the deposit was paid and in the meantime transfer funds for the balance, he then spoke to the guy and they dissapeared pronto and I never saw them again.

However that left me with a problem as I had then decided to do the job myself and at any time they could claim damages against me for denying them the work that they didnt seem inclined to do, the advice I recieved is that by doing the job myself I was leaving myself wide open and better not to do it and wait, - for ever!

I ended up having to send the guy a recorded delivery letter explaining that due to a change in circumstances (repeated hospitalisation) I now find myself in financial difficulties and apologise profusely for not being able to meet my obligation to pay him for a job that he shows no sign of ever doing and begging his permission to accept my cancellation, the real danger was that often tradesman will sell on their order book like this or if they go bankrupt you are shown as a debtor towards his creditors.

I never did recieve a reply.

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