JohnRoss Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 For several months we have had crackling noises on our telephone line and frequent internet drop-outs. Having lifted the two wires at the point of entry into the house and connecting another phone there the crackling continued thus proving that the problem did not lie in the house or other equipment. Request to fix it made to FT who went through the usual speech about trying another phone and disconnecting stuff and warning that if the fault was our stuff there would be a hefty charge for an engineer to turn out. The operator did some test and said the line was OK but the problem continued which she could hear. Nothing happened for several days so I complained again and this time engineers appeared a few days later. They said the equivalent of "Nothing wrong with the line Guv" which was right at the time as it had been dry and hot for those few days and I have noticed that the fault is there or worse just after we have had rain and better or not there after a few dry days. I told them this and they nodded and said well they looked at junction boxes and found nothing wrong and then pushed off saying let us know if the problem comes back which it has. So what I would be pleased to know if there is any sort of line noise test like one that is available in the UK that I can do by dialling some number or other? Degroup test gave these results: longueur de ligne : 2610 mètres affaiblissement théorique : 39.15 dB état de la ligne : ACTIVE which ain't much help. Internet speed tests are pretty rough, these are typical even when the line does not crackle: DOWNLOAD0.49 MbpsUPLOAD0.13 MbpsDetailed ResultsDate15/07/10 13:26:52Download speed498.88 Kbps (0.49 Mbps)Upload speed136.80 Kbps (0.13 Mbps)So any suggestions folks before I ring FT again?..............JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 There is John, they did it on our line (after pestering them a bit [:)])Found the fault about 400 metres from our house and replaced the whole line from the junction box to our house.They cut open the wire to show me and it was all black and very corroded.Been perfect since (fingers crossed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Right well the bit of line between the house and the pole in the road, about 22 metres, was replaced a couple of years ago when someone drove a dumper truck through it with the container elevated so I suspect it must be the line between our pole and the exchange somewhere in the village. A lot of the telephone wires around here have fallen off their poles, thick multiwire cables, and droop somewhat so maintenance ain't what it should be. I think I will have a chat with our neighbour and see if their line crackles as well.............JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I had a similar problem a couple of years ago which only really manifested itself fairly briefly after rain so had cleared by the time FT got round to checking but after about the 3rd time of reporting via the 1013.fr website they acknowledged a fault and found and fixed it promptly.By the way your download speed is very poor considering your line stats. At 2600m and 39db attenuation I'd expect to be getting around 4 or 5mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thanks for the link to the 1013.fr site, I will use that instead of ringing them. You are right about the speed, it is dreadful. Takes ages to download TV progs of any length using Mega Manager (63KB/sec max) and worse with uTorrent. Maybe I should have a moan at AOL as well!.....................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyn_paul Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 [quote user="AnOther"]I had a similar problem a couple of years ago which only really manifested itself fairly briefly after rain so had cleared by the time FT got round to checking but after about the 3rd time of reporting via the 1013.fr website they acknowledged a fault and found and fixed it promptly.By the way your download speed is very poor considering your line stats. At 2600m and 39db attenuation I'd expect to be getting around 4 or 5mb[/quote]I think you're a bit optomistic, AnOther, my stats are:longueur de ligne : 5620 mètres affaiblissement théorique : 57.886 dBand I get 602 max download, so - yes - the OP should be getting better than I have, but 4 or 5mb? shume mishtake, shurely?p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 No, not at all.Admittedly calculating adaptive ADSL which is not common in France according to this calculator for that line length and attenuation 6mb+ is theoretically possible.Also here, here and here, or just about any other calculator you care to use, all give similar predictions for 39dB attenuation, and all come up with around 2800m which is well within the ball park.JohnRoss, what debit speed does Degrouptest actually say for your line ?PS: Have a read here too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 Thanks for the info and the result is very similar to the other one above: Votre FAI : SFR ADSL (SFR)Débit descendant : 523 kbps (65.4 Ko/s) - Débit montant : 138 kbps (17.3 Ko/s) - Ping : 104 msTesté sur http://www.degrouptest.com/test-debit.php - vendredi 16 juillet 2010 22:57:12 ............................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyn_paul Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 [quote user="AnOther"]No, not at all.Admittedly calculating adaptive ADSL which is not common in France according to this calculator for that line length and attenuation 6mb+ is theoretically possible.Also here, here and here, or just about any other calculator you care to use, all give similar predictions for 39dB attenuation, and all come up with around 2800m which is well within the ball park.JohnRoss, what debit speed does Degrouptest actually say for your line ?PS: Have a read here too[/quote]Those links seem to be all referring to ADSL 2 or ADSL 2+. Out here in the boonies with over 5 kms of wind-blown copper between me and the nearest FT cabinet, vanilla ADSL is as much as we can hope for. 602 is what degrouptest estimates, and 602 is roughly what I get.p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 gyn_paul:Calculators are mostly based on current industry standard theoretical line losses of 13.1dB/km. In France many different cable sizes have been used over the years and actual line losses will, in most cases be significantly higher. The attenuation you see on sites such as Degrouptest are themselves nothing more than calculations based on historical information held bt FT in what is a poorly maintained database.Along with the attenuation results you get on Degrouptest you will see something like: 4/10 sur 1920 mètres 6/10 sur 3016 mètresWhat these numbers mean is that, according to FT, your line consists of 2 lengths of cable, one 0.4mm dia and 1920m long and another 0.6mm and 3016m. The relative losses for those cable sizes are as follows:0.4mm - 15dB/km0.5mm - 12.4dB/km 0.6mm - 10.3dB/ 0.8mm - 7.9dB/kmIf you do the sums on your own lengths and losses you will arrive at precisely your thoretical attenuation, to 4 decimal places, and unfortunately FT will not permit ISP's to offer a service faster than the theretical line losses permit. The problem is that, as I said earlier, FT's database is wanting in that it seems to have not been accurately updated when replacement cables have relaid or rerouted. Generally when new or replacement cables are installed they will be of a thicker size than the original so you can easily understand that a supposed line length of say 5000m with 60dB or so attenuation might result in a miserable offering of 512kb whereas the reality might be that the line is much shorter and/or less lossy (or could be more !) and therefore capable of supporting a considerably higher speed. This is where a full degroupee ISP like SFR can come into play as with control of the line they are totally free of FT's numbers and able to offer aservice based on what any particular line will actually support.In practice there is only one number which you can rely on at all to indicate your actual line losses and potential and that is the attenuation reported by your router and in theory there is no reason whatsoever for that your line not to be able to support the speeds approaching those indicated on the chart on the site I linked to earlier here for that.According to the chart gun_paul your losses of 56.886dB indicate a line length of some 4100m and a maximum possible theroetical ADSL speed of something like 1.5mb and for JR's 39db approximately 2900m and a maximum speed of 7mb. It's important to note that these will be maximum sync speeds and actual download speeds will be maybe 25% lower.As a practical demonstration when I was with Teleconnect (spit) although my line was supposedly a shade under 5000m my attenuation was 49db and the sync speed with the exchange was around 6mb, all tieing in with both my estimation of its actual length being around 3600km and the chart, however, because of the FT figures, Teleconnect (spit) could only give me a 2mb service whereas there is little doubt that my line will comfortably support nearly twice that.JR: your results do not look as if they are from Degrouptest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 I used the link you provided earlier (JohnRoss, what debit speed does Degrouptest actually say for your line ?) ...........JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Did you just put in your phone number, not post code, then 'Tester, then 'Plus de Details' for Haut debit par ADSL ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Ok got this......JR:Informations techniques Caractéristiques générales de la ligne : Etat de la ligne : ACTIVE Code Commutateur Local : 79****** Nom Commutateur Local : *********Longueur de ligne : 2610 mètres : 4/10 sur 2610 mètres Affaiblissement théorique : 39.15 dB [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL : 4885 kbps (611 ko/s) [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL 2+ : 7209 kbps (901 ko/s) Caractéristiques du central France Télécom : Plaque ADSL : PO1 Type de DSLAM : ALCATEL ou ECI Zone Dense (> 20 000 lignes) : Non Nombre d'abonnés approximatif : 500 NRA compatible ADSL FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Non NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT : Non NRA compatible ReADSL FT : Oui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Need I say more !I'd get onto FT first thing on Monday morning and ask them why they cannot give you the 5-7mb your line supports [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyn_paul Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 ...... and I got this :===============================Test Results Technical information Characteristics of the line : Line status : ACTIVE Local Switch Code : 23015AZE [ Detailed ] Local Switch Name : THE BROOM Line length : 5620 meters: 6 / 10 to 5620 meters Attenuation theoretical 57,886 dB [Estimate] Downstream ADSL : 1390 kbps ( 174 KB / s ) [Estimate] Downstream ADSL 2 + : 1348 kbps (169 KB / s) Characteristics of central France Telecom : Plate DSL: LI1 DSLAM Type : ALCATEL or ECI Dense area (> 20,000 lines): Not Approximate Number of subscribers : 1000 NRA ADSL compatible FT: Yes NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Yes NRA consistent ADSL2 + FT : Yes NRA compatible READSL FT : Yes Operators FT Offers Internet IP / DSL: IP ADSL 512 ( 512/128 kbps) Possible 1024 IP ADSL R ( 1024 Kbps/128 Kbps) Impossible IP ADSL 1024 Pro ( 1024 Kbps/256 Kbps) Impossible IP ADSL 2048/256 ( 2048 Kbps/256 Kbps ) Impossible IP ADSL Max (Up to 8 Mégas/800kbps ) Impossible IP ADSL Max 2 + (Up to 18 Mégas/1Mbps ) Impossible ADSL Orange (Cf. IP ADSL ) Possible Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible + Orange TV ( Bouquet Orange TV ) Possible ( ) + Orange HDTV Impossible Canal + (Canal + and CanalSat) Impossible All ISPs on this network ADSL Max 2+ (Jusqu'à 18 mégas) Free NordNet Orange ADSL Max (Jusqu'à 8 mégas) Alice Budget Telecom Dartybox [ + ] view ISPs using the network are exclusively Nordnet and Orange. Type of connection proposed Option 3 Unbundling to 6.4 Mbps/640k Impossible Unbundling up to 16 Mbps/800k Impossible Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible + Telephony over ADSL (VoIP) Possible ADSL + TV : TV, Canal + , CanalSat Impossible Estimated download speed possible 533 kbps Estimated amount of flow possible 133 kbps Average time of activation of a line N / C The SFR network is used by SFR , Nerim and Magic Online. Type of connection proposed No Naked DSL ( without subscription FT ) Impossible + Telephony over ADSL ( VoIP) Impossible ADSL + TV : TV, Canal +, CanalSat Impossible Estimated download speed possible - Estimated amount of flow possible - Network is used by Numericable Completel and DartyBox . Type of connection proposed Option 5 Naked ADSL ( without subscription FT ) Possible + Telephony over ADSL (VoIP) Impossible ADSL + TV : TV, Canal + , CanalSat Impossible Estimated download speed possible 512kbps Estimated amount of flow possible 128kbps Bouygues Telecom 's network is only used by Bouygues Telecom . ==============================================================as you can see, all the offers are for 512. Am I confused ? - that's my default position !p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 It looks like FT have got you on a max 1mb package as 602kbps is faster than a 512kbps connection could run but the critical number to see the real situation is the actual attenuation reported by your Livebox so what is that ?Interestingly my own (totally incorrect) numbers are not dissimilar to yours, slightly worse in fact, yet although Degrouptest says 512kbps max, even for FT, when I did switch to them from Teleconnect (spit) they were actually able to give me 1mb, you can draw your own conclusions as to why that might be !Just to prove my point about estimations BTW, 5620m x 10.3dB/km (for 0.6mm cable) = 57.886dB ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 [quote user="AnOther"]Need I saymore !I'd get onto FT first thing on Monday morning and ask them why they cannot giveyou the 5-7mb your line supports [;-)][/quote]Is it not because the NRA at the exchange is only enabled for ADSL and not ADSL2 or ADSL+?as it said: NRA compatible ADSL FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Non NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT : Non NRA compatible ReADSL FT : Oui so that means: equipped for ADSL and ReADSL only and does not have the bitsequipped to enable higher speed ADSLOr have I misunderstood something?Strangely enough, this is exactly what our results said with slightly differentmeasures and line lengths etc but... in the last few days it has changed tothisCaractéristiques générales de la ligne : Etat de la ligne : ACTIVE Code Commutateur Local : 46211NUZ [ Fiche détaillée ] Nom Commutateur Local : NUZEJOULS Longueur de ligne : 1602 mètres : 6/10 sur 1602 mètres Affaiblissement théorique : 16.5006 dB [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL : 8159 kbps (1020 ko/s) [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL 2+ : 18398 kbps (2300 ko/s) Caractéristiques du central France Télécom : Plaque ADSL : MP1 Type de DSLAM : ECI Zone Dense (> 20 000 lignes) : Non Nombre d'abonnés approximatif : 500 NRA compatible ADSL FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT : Oui NRA compatible ReADSL FT : Oui Nothing has changed from before except thatthe ADSL MAX and ADSL2+ are now marked as compatible.I can only presume that the local connection has been upgraded lately. I havebeen following a lot of our local numbers over a long period of time -neighbours etc. and our whole commune has gone from a fixed 2 MB for years tovarying levels from approx 5MB to 20 MB as of yesterday.I called Orange yesterday to ask if it is possible to upgrade my speed from the2MB we have had since ADSL was available here and I was told that I can nowhave 20 MB all of a sudden. There may be hope for you yet Ernie!!Apparently the increase in speed is underway for my line. I have yet to see anydifference either in actual speed or in the Orange Espace client which stillsays Découverte Internet 2010 8MB(2MB) (up tospeeds and real speed)Livebox stats still say: 1.14 Atténuation montante : 14.0 dB 1.15 Atténuation descendante : 33.6 dB 1.16 Marge au bruit sens montant : 1 dB 1.17 Marge au bruit descendante : 22 dB 1.18 Débit montant maximum : 326 kb/s 1.19 Débit descendant maximum : 2432 kb/s I am not counting chickens yet though but if it goes OK I should in theory seea speed of 8MB or even faster if we change to a 'Formule' or 'Net' package.Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Plain old vanilla ADSL should give those sort of speeds on a 2600m line with 39dB attenuation.Again check out the chart at http://www.internode.on.net/residential/broadband/adsl/extreme/performanceInteresting post though Danny as I see on Degrouptest that my exchange is now similarly fully NRA enabled so I'll be onto FT myself on Monday morning !Ta for the tip [;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyn_paul Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 [quote user="AnOther"]It looks like FT have got you on a max 1mb package as 602kbps is faster than a 512kbps connection could run but the critical number to see the real situation is the actual attenuation reported by your Livebox so what is that ?Interestingly my own (totally incorrect) numbers are not dissimilar to yours, slightly worse in fact, yet although Degrouptest says 512kbps max, even for FT, when I did switch to them from Teleconnect (spit) they were actually able to give me 1mb, you can draw your own conclusions as to why that might be !Just to prove my point about estimations BTW, 5620m x 10.3dB/km (for 0.6mm cable) = 57.886dB ![/quote]Mine's actually a freebox; that being the case, how do I get it to report the actual line attenuation?p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I don't know precisely where it is in the Freebox but you should be able to access it by typing 192.168.1.1 into your browser, use the supplied user ID and PW, then look for line stats or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Unlike most others, for the Freebox you have to log in via the web on this pagehttps://subscribe.free.fr/login/and find the part which says'caractéristiques techniques de votre ligne'Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyv Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 This is a really interesting thread, to which I've arrived somewhat belatedly, but I'd appreciate some expert advice.From my Livebox:1.1 Nom du fabricant :Sagem1.2 Modèle :Livebox 2 Mini1.3 Pays :France1.4 Firmware :h323-fr-7.2.9.81.5 Firmware FT :v7.2-h323-fr1.6 Etat de la connexion :Connecté1.7 Etat de ligne ADSL :Connecté1.8 Etat du compte PPP :Connecté1.9 Nom d'utilisateur :fti/bb2c9721.10 Adresse IP WAN :90.60.240.1631.11 Adresse IP BAS :90.60.240.11.12 Serveur DNS primaire :80.10.246.130,81.253.149.21.13 Serveur DNS secondaire :80.10.246.130,81.253.149.2Caractéristiques techniques :1.14 Atténuation Up (dB) :20,7 dB1.15 Atténuation Down (dB) :41,3 dB1.16 Signal bruit Up (dB) :35,0 dB1.17 Signal bruit Down (dB) :29,0 dB1.18 Débit maximum possible ligne Up (kb/s) :947 kb/s1.19 Débit maximum possible ligne Down (kb/s) :6844 kb/s1.20 Puissance émise (dBm) :12,1 dBm1.21 Puissance reçue (dBm) :17,1 dBmFrom Degrouptest Caractéristiques générales de la ligne : Etat de la ligne : ACTIVE Code Commutateur Local : 09005CDA [ Fiche détaillée ] Nom Commutateur Local : CASTET-ALEU Longueur de ligne : 4128 mètres : 6/10 sur 4128 mètres Affaiblissement théorique : 42.5184 dB [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL : 4107 kbps (513 ko/s) [Estimation] Débit descendant ADSL 2+ : 5679 kbps (710 ko/s) Caractéristiques du central France Télécom : Plaque ADSL : MP1 Type de DSLAM : ALCATEL Zone Dense (> 20 000 lignes) : Non Nombre d'abonnés approximatif : 500 NRA compatible ADSL FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL Max FT : Oui NRA compatible ADSL2+ FT : Oui NRA compatible ReADSL FT : Non From the speed test:Votre FAI : Orange (BSTOU159 Toulouse Bloc 2)Débit descendant : 1036 kbps (129.5 Ko/s) - Débit montant : 269 kbps (33.6 Ko/s) - Ping : 83 msTesté sur http://www.degrouptest.com/test-debit.php - Sat 17 Jul 2010 18:57:40 CET - Test n°8694485So, the livebox reckons I should be getting some 6.8Mbps; Degrouptest conservatively rates it at 4.1 or 5.6 Mbps; but I'm only getting 1Mbps.So, is this because of my subscription, is there a fault, which I can get fixed (how?) or am I misreading the data?Any advice appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 According to your actual attenuation, which pretty well matches Degrouptest, and your line length, you should be getting around the 4mb indicated so you may be on a limited package. It sometimes happens that changes are made by FT which significantly improve your line stats from when you first signed up with your ISP but they have no obligation to inform you hence it pays to check on Degrouptest from time to time.Your should contact FT/Orange and see if they can and will upgrade you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyv Posted July 18, 2010 Share Posted July 18, 2010 Thanks for the confirmation, AnO; I'll give 'em a ring next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRoss Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Used the 1013.fr link to report the problem and two engineers arrived today following a call from FT yesterday seeking more information from me. They checked the telephone socket in the house and the junction box up the pole in the road outside. The guy said that all was well there but that he suspected lightning damage somewhere between us and the exchange in the village. A few minutes later he rang me to say that he had found the fault and fixed it. So thank you FT and thanks to all for the information. Now a happier bunny with no crackles but still a slow internet. Contacted SFR/AOL by email but they say that I need to speak to their technical bods and that it only possible by telephone or letter and not email so that is a problem still to be sorted however we make some progress. Letter I think as would have trouble describing the results of the speed and other tests in English let alone French on the phone..............................JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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