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Urgent EDF problem


victor
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sweet 17 wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 19:03:

NEVER pay for anything by prélèvement, if you can possibly avoid it. This doesn't, of course, apply if you are away from your house for long periods and live elsewhere as well.

We do have a prélèvement with EDF but that was set up years ago when we had our first house and was still living in the UK. Strangely, enough, EDF were the ONLY people with whom we have had no problems, and that has included faulty readings that have been put right in our favour and having minimal amounts taken out of our account until disputes were resolved.

Thanks to Clair's advice, I am even managing NOT to pay SFR by direct debit but by 2-monthly cheques. I certainly don't pay the water people or anyone else by DD. This was after an initial and VERY hard lesson learnt after being ripped off by France Telecom who has taken money which we will never see again.

Also, if you are with a bank like CA (we used to be), they actually CHARGE you for cancelling a DD and do not make any attempt, unlike British banks, to get your money back from the beneficiery.

When we had our difficulty with EDF, I sent an email and someone rang me back within 48 hours, an engineer was sent out within a week or so and money returned to us soon after that. I hope you are as lucky as we have been

sweet,

Both our EDF and SFR are by prélèvement. We do get a water bill and just write a check. So far no problem with SFR. We do, for better or worse bank at CA.

A technician is coming from EDF on Wednesday. However, after all the help I have received from everyone and run some numbers, it sure looks like the EDF amount is correct. What I do not understand is why they would not have sent us correct bills for several years.

Victor
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gardengirl wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 19:24:

Hope you get everything sorted out, Victor; it's a huge amount to have to pay.

We have a prelevement for paying EDF; every June they send a full bill for the year. If we haven't paid enough during the year they would raise the monthly sum we pay, but in fact it's never gone up, and for 4 years we've had a small refund paid into our account within 2 days. It all seems very efficient. We used to read the metervery regularly, but have become a bit lax about it recently. New year's resolution maybe.

Gardengirl,

Based on our experience, maybe you might want to check your usage and bills as advised by the responses that I have received. Our experience is not anything I would wish on anyone else!

Victor
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Clair wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 19:18:

To cancel your prélèvement, you must contact your bank, preferably in writing (registered post + proof of delivery) to tell them you wish to cancel the monthly prélèvement made by EDF.

Make sure you give them the correct payment details (these should show on your statements and on your EDF paperwork) and make sure you time your letter according to the current payment schedule.

In your letter, write that the request is "selon les articles 2003 et 2004 du code civil, qui dit qu’un mandat est révocable à tout moment." Send me a PM if you need help with this.

The bank will not charge for a cancellation, but do not use the words stop or opposition, as these may give a green light to the bank to charge for stopping (as opposed to cancelling) the debit.

Why a registered letter preferably to face-to-face?

Because when EDF next tries to take money from your account, the bank may let it go through, and unless you asked someone at the bank to stamp and sign a copy of your request, you won't have proof that you asked them to stop paying, and you'll be out of pocket.

Then call EDF on 09 69 32 15 15 (Mon to Sat 8h00 tp 21h00) and tell them you want to change your method of payment to cheque. They will probably come up with various reasons why you shouldn't, but stick to your guns as it's your right to do so.

Then you can register online with EDF, sign up with the Relevé Confiance and pay your bills online.

As far as payments are concerned, I pay my bills on their website with my bank card.

And it's 6 times a year (an invoice every 2 months.)

Clair,

Thank you mille fois! I may need to contact you about the letter to the bank.

Victor
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[quote user="gardengirl "]Hope you get everything sorted out, Victor; it's a huge amount to have to pay.

We have a prelevement for paying EDF; every June they send a full bill for the year. If we haven't paid enough during the year they would raise the monthly sum we pay, but in fact it's never gone up, and for 4 years we've had a small refund paid into our account within 2 days. It all seems very efficient. We used to read the metervery regularly, but have become a bit lax about it recently. New year's resolution maybe.
[/quote]

Just goes to show how different regions do different things and each EDF region thinks it is a company in it's own right.

We pay €210 per month for ten months of the year, so far this seems standard. However our 10 month period lasts from 12th Feb to 12 Nov inclusive. During the last two weeks of November they come and read the meter and in December we get a bill showing how much electricity we have burnt, how much money we have paid (i.e. €2,100) and what the balance is. The balance is taken from our account in December. Sometimes we are in credit in which case they put the money in to our account in December. To be honest the first time this happened I was very surprised how quickly they credited our bank account. Back in the UK we waited two months when they owed us money one year and a few years after that they held on to the money and left it on our electricity account. I should add that I have never had a problem with paying the bills this way in France. You can phone up the English speaking helpdesk at EDF (actually they call it the International Helpdesk) and they will organise it all for you or you can go to your local EDF office. In fact if paying the outstanding amount is going to be a problem I have found talking face to face with functionaires can on rare occasions be beneficial.

The first two years we used what is called the TIP system. You send them a RIB then when your bill arrives it has a prefilled TIP at the bottom. It is basically a cheque which you sign, shove it in the envelope supplied and send it back and they cash it.

It seems to me the OP has done something basically wrong somewhere but one thing has made me wonder what is going on with EDF. Basically if you don't pay the bill off completely at the end of either the two month period or the ten month period (like what happened to me when I changed banks) you start getting nasty letters from them, first a red reminder then a real nasty one. Seems the OP has had neither of these which if true could be a bargaining point to pay the debt of in installments although somehow I doubt they will g for it but its worth a try.

Good luck.

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We do check the figures each year when the bill comes, Victor, and they've always matched up, so we know we're paying the correct amount and not getting in to debt.

As we only have a small apartment with good insulation and large amounts of sunshine through large, south-facing windows, bills aren't very big. In fact, as we had reversible aircon installed last summer, we're expecting usage to go down - the electric heaters that were installed cost a fair bit to run; neighbours who have the same system of aircon have found they use very little electricity using it in a much bigger apartment.

By the way, our living room and bedroom are the same size as Victor'sliving room - 42 square metres! Just the small hall, kitchen, WC and bathroom on top of that. Just as well we have a good-sized balcony, where we spend a lot of time, summer and winter.

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Just getting back to the numbers, there's something very odd been going on here. (Yes, I know, a statement of the obvious!!)

Taking your consumption from May '07 - Dec '12, its around 81k kwh, say 1200 / mth, giving 14,500 p.a. average.  That sounds about right for your property as you describe it.

However, the readings have been all over the shop, ranging from a low average of 120 kwh / mth, to a high of 2,450 kwh / mth.  Even allowing for seasonal peaks & troughs, that's crazy!!

Two things - is your meter a digital one or an old-fashioned 'clockwork' job?  If its the latter, that might explain the daft readings - ants get in to them and can stop them altogether. If that can happen, who knows what else might occur?

Second thing is that you should be able to access all your past bills by accessing 'Mon Espace' on the EDF website. I can't remember how you do it, but its not difficult. You can then view all your past invoices and therefore meter readings. 

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Quillan wrote:-

''During the last two weeks of November they come and read the meter and in December we get a bill showing how much electricity we have burnt, how much money we have paid (i.e. €2,100) and what the balance is. The balance is taken from our account in December.''

A similar situation for us with one small difference, EDF did not send a bill or a letter stating what balance would be taken out in December. We unfortunately found out when EDF took a considerable amount without notification which put our bank account in the red. We were in UK at the time and only discovered it when we checked our French account on line to discover that we had incurred substantial charges for being overdrawn.

Luckily we were able to quickly transfer money from a UK account. Lloyds / TSB taking only 3 or 4 hours before the funds were credited in France.
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It sounds as though Victor's problem is catching!!

Some British friends spent the day with us yesterday on the way from the airport to their 2nd home over in the Herault.  They've just sent an email to thank us for lunch and mentioned that to their horror that they've 'consumed' (according to the meter) 1,400 kwh's of juice since mid-November. The problem is that the house was empty, with nothing other than a fridge running!

Investigation is underway.   

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[quote user="Patf"]We're fortunate then - we get a bill every 2 months and they give the date of the prelevement which is about 2 weeks later. So there's time to query it if necessary, and make sure there's enough money in our account.
[/quote]

Yes, that is exactly how our account works and it's the same for both our houses in 2 different departments, 17 and 24.

As I have said, on the 2 or 3 occasions when we have queried the bills, things were put right within days.  Once, when the HC meter wasn't working, they replaced our meter, our telecommande AND offered us a "guestimate" of the amount of electricity used on HC and put the money back into our account.  The guestimate was on the generous side and we had a month in which to say we wanted to accept their figures or not.

As the amount of refund was so generous, we accepted with indecent haste![:D]

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[quote user="Patf"]We're fortunate then - we get a bill every 2 months and they give the date of the prelevement which is about 2 weeks later. So there's time to query it if necessary, and make sure there's enough money in our account.

[/quote]

That sounds a good system. Unfortunately, as the OP found, bills are usually annual now, and that allows rather large margins for getting into difficulty.

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Fascinating discussion, and I appreciate the tips made about the EDF extracting the cash irrespective of the ability to pay.

I am confused by the amount of KWHs predicted or actual, my UK home is 149m2 and I get through about 5.5-6k KWH annually. OK the heating is gas through a combi boiler, but even so 10-11k KWHs annually for electric?

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Interesting discussion. Our house is split into two, each about 120 m2. We live in the upstairs part. Heating is oil for 2 hours in the morning, then generally wood. Gas hob; electric oven/MWave, small A++ freezer and an A+ fridge. Water heating for one 200 litre and one 50 litre containers is electric. We have back up electric heating which the 2 boys use in their rooms when home. Several computers often all on, two with 500w transformers. From the EDF site, we used Dec 2011 to Dec 2012 7,311KWHs, most of that goes, I think, in heating the water tanks. Bills are received every 2 month, I put the readings direct on the EDF site and get an estimate of the bill within a day by email. These are still treated as "estimates" till the man (or lady) comes into the house to read the meter twice a year. That puts me in the middle of your range, but we have virtually no direct electric heating. All the bulbs are low energy and, being a Yorkshire man, usage of anything that costs money is rationed!! If you can see where its being wasted, let me know.
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I have recently done some serious number crunching on electricity consumption in both my French and Uk properties, both are all electric, cooking, heating, hot water, lighting etc, both are small one bedroom apartments, the OPs salon is significantly bigger than my whole surface area.

 

The one in France is 37m2, brick/parpaing solid wall construction relatively well insulated but well short of the latest B.B.C. normes, the one in the UK is 30m2, converted outbuildings, timber framed (think shed) insulated but only 3" or so within the thickness of the wall studs, same for the ceiling and an uninsulated floor. France has a 150 litre ballon, UK a 100 litre one, both have VMC's running constantly.

I keep a close count of the electric consumption as in the UK I am submetered and pay the tenant in the main house for my consumption, the figures below are annualised figures based on 17 weeks of heating.

Domestic hot water including washing machine = 1288 kwh per annum

Heating = 3512 kwh p.a. France and 2975 kwh p.a. UK

Cooking, lighting, domestic etc including my renovation works = 1938 kwh p.a.

The annual heating and hot water consumption in France are exact figures as I can compare the HP and HC readings every 2 months, during the heures creuses there is no other consumption other than the vmc and the occasional light if I get up to siphon the python, therefore the heures pleine figure is also exact as there is no heating or hot water consumption during that time.

A.N. Other reckons that his hot water consumption is the same as mine which seems rather low as its for a family and guests whereas I live alone however unless you have a 600 litre ballon or have it reheating 24 hours a day I cannot see you using 4 times as much as I do.

The above figures for heating work out at around 100kwh/m2 per annum which is in line with a well insulated modern building.

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Clair wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 19:18:

To cancel your prélèvement, you must contact your bank, preferably in writing (registered post + proof of delivery) to tell them you wish to cancel the monthly prélèvement made by EDF.

Make sure you give them the correct payment details (these should show on your statements and on your EDF paperwork) and make sure you time your letter according to the current payment schedule.

In your letter, write that the request is "selon les articles 2003 et 2004 du code civil, qui dit qu’un mandat est révocable à tout moment." Send me a PM if you need help with this.

The bank will not charge for a cancellation, but do not use the words stop or opposition, as these may give a green light to the bank to charge for stopping (as opposed to cancelling) the debit.

Why a registered letter preferably to face-to-face?

Because when EDF next tries to take money from your account, the bank may let it go through, and unless you asked someone at the bank to stamp and sign a copy of your request, you won't have proof that you asked them to stop paying, and you'll be out of pocket.

Then call EDF on 09 69 32 15 15 (Mon to Sat 8h00 tp 21h00) and tell them you want to change your method of payment to cheque. They will probably come up with various reasons why you shouldn't, but stick to your guns as it's your right to do so.

Then you can register online with EDF, sign up with the Relevé Confiance and pay your bills online.

As far as payments are concerned, I pay my bills on their website with my bank card.

And it's 6 times a year (an invoice every 2 months.)

Clair,

We have a technician coming out from EDF tomorrow the 23rd. I also have spoken to the EDF help site which is in English. Telephone number 05.56.17.40.70. It took two days to get through. The woman I spoke with told me there are only a few employees for English speakers which is why the line is always busy. Anyway she set me up to get on the internet site which unfortunately she also said is having technical problems at this time. She was terrific however! She said that all future prelevement are stopped and did not see why I should even write the bank.

What do you think? Shoud I still write a letter to the bank?

She also said that she set it up so we would receive an email about when to read the meter and send the reading on our internet site with EDF.

She said that then we would receive a bill with a tip which we sign and send back to EDF and that twice a year our meter would be read.

Does what I have written sound correct to you?

Claire thank you so much!

Victor
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Gardian wrote the following post at 20/01/2013 22:56:

Just getting back to the numbers, there's something very odd been going on here. (Yes, I know, a statement of the obvious!!)

Taking your consumption from May '07 - Dec '12, its around 81k kwh, say 1200 / mth, giving 14,500 p.a. average. That sounds about right for your property as you describe it.

However, the readings have been all over the shop, ranging from a low average of 120 kwh / mth, to a high of 2,450 kwh / mth. Even allowing for seasonal peaks & troughs, that's crazy!!

Two things - is your meter a digital one or an old-fashioned 'clockwork' job? If its the latter, that might explain the daft readings - ants get in to them and can stop them altogether. If that can happen, who knows what else might occur?

Second thing is that you should be able to access all your past bills by accessing 'Mon Espace' on the EDF website. I can't remember how you do it, but its not difficult. You can then view all your past invoices and therefore meter readings.

Gardian,

We have a digital meter, We have signed up for the "mon espace" and the woman on the English speaking EDF site (05.56.17.40.70) has canceled the prelevent to take effect after this bill. Also have a technician coming out tomorrow.

The woman also had a problem with our readings just as you did. Will see what happens.

Victor

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It's all very well her saying that she has cancelled the prelevement, but has she explained why the huge bill in the first place? Fonctionnaires, can say as they please, you need everything in writing as far as I am concerned, it is the best way.

I'll be curious as to what the engineer says.  Make sure you take meter readings whilst they are there, HC and HP.

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Victor ...........

Much as all who have contributed to this would like to see it, I rather doubt that you're going to come out of this any better off.

The reality is that you got yourself in to a bit of a pickle and its all history now. Totally impossible to point a finger at EDF who, in fairness to them, can only go on what the meter has been recording over the last umpteen years. There's clearly been a problem over them not taking readings, but frankly I doubt that you'll get very far in trying to lay the blame at their door. The likelihood is that your total consumption over the years is not far wide of the mark, but only you can go in to the detailed analysis of what you've been billed for vs what you've actually paid, in order to calculate any possible grounds for "crying foul".

It would seem that you're in control now - bon continuation !!

p.s. It'll be interesting to hear what the technicien has to say tomorrow, but I doubt that it'll be anything other than (a) "Its OK" or (b) "I've changed it & you need to discuss any issues with the office".  More likely (b) - the line of least resistance.   

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I tend to agree with Gardian.

I can tell you that I have had three meters replaced inside a month even though we always knew we didn't have a problem inside the house nor as the meter at fault.

On two occasions we had to have a French qualified electrician present so the EDF Technician could ask questions about things on our side of the meter. The conversation were interesting to say the least. Firstly as far as EDF are concerned if somebody taps in to your supply on your side of the meter then it's your problem to detect and take the person to court for the money or whatever. Their responsibility is the meter and everything on their side of it.

I can't claim any money back that I paid to have the electrician visit (twice €176 total cost) . In EDF's view I am guilty (of whatever) and I have prove I am innocent and that is at my expense. I have tried to claim the money back both locally and at a national level. Amongst all the 'No' answers was one that said it all "There is no mechanism in EDF to claim money back".

Our problem is that the meter gets stuck on Red nights (TEMPO) which might mean that we have cheaper electricity on Red days but we don't because the water heaters come on at night, are controlled by the meter so are on all day. I cannot claim anything back for this either. My life therefore on Red days revolves around alarms to tell me to manually turn the hot water on and off. They will not give me a refund on the units used in the day even though it is their fault.

The best we got was when they changed from the second to the third meter the EDF Technician reset number two back to zero to we were not charged for any electricity units (still had a bill for around €8 for the meter hire) used between number two and number three.

That was the best I ever got out of an EDF technician. When they came to change the original meter I tried to explain the problem. The guy was not interested, his job was to change the meter and that was it. Just a typical French jobsworth.

EDF's attitude to its clients is a disgrace to France, it does not give a toss. They never make a mistake so it is always the clients fault unless they can prove to the contrary by independent and qualified sources. Oh yes try asking for a list of approved electricians that they will accept reports from for faults, they refuse.

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[quote user="Quillan"]I forgot to add that whatever the meter says is gospel and that is what you will be charged for. It can work either in your favour or against you but that does not matter, you pay for what is on the meter and thats the end of it.[/quote]

NOT true!  As explained, our meter wasn't recording the HC units and, when we alerted EDF, they changed the meter and the telecommande and gave us a very generous estimate of what the HC reading might have been.

Therefore, they weren't relying on the meter reading in our case.

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