Astra 2F Discussion Here Please!

[Martin963]

I don't know,  but it was wittily described as the space-age equivalent of a Trabant......

I know it's childish of me to wish ill on SES,  but their record of smug "there's no real information in this self-congratulatory press release" utterances and furtive secrecy just makes me long for the smiles to be wiped from their corporate faces.....

No different to a lot of other modern organisations sadly - Arqiva being another example.

And if they DO crash 2E I think they might be in somewhat straitened circumstances capacity-wise.....

[Quillan]

Change of subject a little. Is there such a thing as a dish size calculator?

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Quillan"]Change of subject a little. Is there such a thing as a dish size calculator?[/quote]

I calculate that if I can't receive all the channels, I need a bigger dish!

p

[Quillan]

Well thats the thing, today at this very moment I can get C5 and the rest but tomorrow I might not so clearly I am on the edge. It would be interesting to know how to calculate the dish size. As I understand it you need to know the db of your LNB and the EIRP where you are but how do you find the latter? I may be totally wrong of course as this is all new to me, there may be other things you need to add to the calculation which I don't know about. On the other hand somebody may have written a program that you bask some numbers in and it coughs out the dish size.

[Martin963]

You can get a rough idea of the EIRP from a footprint map,   but these are inherently not exact,  and in any case SES haven't (oh so helpful yet again) published AFAIK a map that goes beyond the 60 cms contour,  whatever that is in EIRPs (approx 50 dBW depending on LNB).

It's always nice if the theory fits the practice,  but it tends to be that way round with satellite reception.

What's the latest size you've got Quillan - last I heard you were on 1.2 m ...?

[Jako]

Meanwhile,  interesting times are coming as SES Astra stated they will start to use the frequency band currently used by Eutelsat as soon as October 4 [blink].

[Quillan]

And in English that means what to us?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Martin963"]You can get a rough idea of the EIRP from a footprint map,   but these are inherently not exact,  and in any case SES haven't (oh so helpful yet again) published AFAIK a map that goes beyond the 60 cms contour,  whatever that is in EIRPs (approx 50 dBW depending on LNB).

It's always nice if the theory fits the practice,  but it tends to be that way round with satellite reception.

What's the latest size you've got Quillan - last I heard you were on 1.2 m ...?
[/quote]

I was waiting for a 1.2m but no sign of it yet. I had a work last Friday to gee him up a bit, he said he was waiting for the rain to stop!

[Jako]

What it means that SES will use the Eutelsat frequency band is still unknown. SES say they have won the legal right to do so (click) , but Eutelsat disagrees.

Worst case:

If there is no agreement and SES will simply start to use those frequencies results in a total loss of reception of all channels currently transmitted on Eutelsat28: click

But even if they reach an agreement, sky and other providers need time to adjust the uplink to a new satellite, contracts need to be signed  and time is running out.

Interesting times...

[Jako]

Just learned that SES  already  owns the contracts with Sky etc, but is currently subcontracting to Eutelsat. That means the switchover to an Astra satellite is relative simple and Eutelsat will miss out on around 30-40 million Euro per year.

The question now is what satellite will be used as 2E is still not available and what footprint, especially for those watching outside the UK.

[Quillan]

Just a quick update.

We are getting C5 with the 1M dish this morning but it will pixelate around 17:00 and signal loss will happen about 19:00.

I currently have two engineers on my roof with a 1.2m dish which they are setting up. They have a very sophisticated box of tricks with them that can drill down to the strength and quality of individual channels so I will let you know how we get on later in the day.

[Gyn_Paul]

I know this idea is actually a non-starter: - people with a far higher iq than mine would have done it already - but can somebody explain (without a page of math formulae preferably) exactly why you can't parallel the output of two or three fixed dishes (say 3 x 80 cm) rather than try to align one massive one please?

p

[Jako]

Well, actually you can. This method is used by radio astronomers to 'listen' for aliens etc. [blink]

The BIG problem however is the fact that it takes time to process the signal and time is of the essence. When you want to use two or more sources to deliver the same signal to one tuner they need to arrive at the exact same moment. That is impossible, cable is never the same length, different electronics  never run at exactly the same speed etc. The result is no signal at all, unless you spend a fortune on delay lines and fine-tuning, like astronomers do.

[Quillan]

Another update.

My 1.2m dish is up and running and things have improved. C5 was working without any pixelation at 23:00 last night and 06:30 this morning when I got up.

My LNB has been changed as well. I had a Black Ultra (highly recommended round the web) which I bought 6 months ago new, in fact I have two. They are very good on signal strength but not so good on quality. We tried the original and my spare with exact same results. The new LNB who's name I don't know till I climb up and have a look is not so good on strength but better on quality or so I am told. The signal at the Sky box is now 9.8db, you techies can work that out but the guy said that was OK, he would have liked to have seen 10 but tells me I shouldn't have a problem. The next test is rain i.e. how hard it has to be before I loose the signal.

I am glad it appears to work because you need a three point fix to the wall and I really don't like drilling holes through the crepie.

I will keep you posted re the rain factor or any other problems.

[Martin963]

Thanks for the update.

[Jako]

Yes, thanks for the interesting update. The inverto is also supposed to have one of the lowest noise levels and that should result in better quality. But reported noise levels are more a commercial feature than reality nowadays.  10 dB is ok for SD channels, but low for HD channels running on a dvbs2 8psk transponder.

If you have an HD receiver, can you check the signal on this transponder: 11024 Mhz, H, 23000, fec 2/3,DVBS2, 8PSK with BBC red button HD, BBC one Scotland HD and BBC one Wales HD.

10 dB on that transponder would mean hardly any rain reserve.

[Quillan]

Another update.

Firstly I just have a Sky box and no HD TV at present so I can't look at anything technical other than what is on that box unfortunatly.

Now for some bad news. I was up till nearly midnight last night with guests and gave it a try before going to bed, no C5. They left me a temproray cable just thrown down the side of the house to make sure we had no bad cable problems so at 30 mins past midnight I was up on the roof swapping over the cable, no difference.

It would therefore seem that whilst we get C5 for longer during the day a 1.2m dish is not the answer especially as there is no rain reserve. I shall see the guy on Tuesday and see what he can do next, 1.5m dish perhaps! Lucky I am not paying for any of this experimenting, could have been rather expensive mistake just buying a 1.2m dish and hoping it would work.

[Department71]

[quote user="Quillan"]Another update.

Firstly I just have a Sky box and no HD TV at present so I can't look at anything technical other than what is on that box unfortunately.

[/quote]

I have a 37" Plasma Panasonic that can handle HD signals, I also have a Humax freesat HD box and quite frankly I can't see much difference between normal terrestial pictures via the aerial and the Humax throwing out a HD signal via satellite on say BBC channels. So Q I don't think you are missing much.

 Maybe if my eyes were perfect my views might be different, but as they are getting older I'm happy with the terrestrial picture.

Now don't get me on about the audio on programs.

 

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="Department71"][quote user="Quillan"]Another update.

Firstly I just have a Sky box and no HD TV at present so I can't look at anything technical other than what is on that box unfortunately.

[/quote]

I have a 37" Plasma Panasonic that can handle HD signals, I also have a Humax freesat HD box and quite frankly I can't see much difference between normal terrestial pictures via the aerial and the Humax throwing out a HD signal via satellite on say BBC channels. So Q I don't think you are missing much.

 Maybe if my eyes were perfect my views might be different, but as they are getting older I'm happy with the terrestrial picture.

Now don't get me on about the audio on programs.

 

[/quote]

I am firmly of the belief that it's not just the frequency response of

ones ears which declines over the decades, but also the ability to

process the audio signal. When you're young you can concentrate on one

particular sound amongst many (a voice at a party, or an instrument in

an orchestration) and bin the extraneous noises (clattering of dishes,

people talking in the row behind). This is - classically - what you

can't do when you are reduced to wearing hearing aids. But I believe our

native ability to process audio in this way declines with age too -

regardless of any actual hearing loss. This is why so many old(er)

people and so few young(er) people complain about things like the level

of background music on dramas, and being overwhelmed by highly-compressed

ads and programme trails.

I also believe our brain's bus speed

declines with age too, so the sample-rate for memory has a longer interval

hence time apparently passes quicker than when we were younger, but

that's a discussion for another time and place!

p

[marmite]

Gyn_paul

Agree with you about the audio problems, just tonight I was looking forward to a new BBC  drama "By Any Means" managed to watch about 20 mins of it before giving up. The constant drumming beat and bass background music! in the end I just gave up.

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote user="marmite"]Gyn_paul

Agree with you about the audio problems, just tonight I was looking forward to a new BBC  drama "By Any Means" managed to watch about 20 mins of it before giving up. The constant drumming beat and bass background music! in the end I just gave up.

[/quote]

I fear it's an insoluable problem: the Sound Supervisor dubbing the finished programme is typically 35 - 45, perhaps 50 at a push, he's listening on studio-quality speakers (with sometimes a tiny, tinny, speaker in mono which he can switch to, to simulate a TV speaker), in a sound-proof room. He's looking at the levels on the PPM (stereo sound level meter), probably with a bit of compression and perhaps a bit of limiter switched in. He will have mixed the tracks to the best of his ability, and in his dubbing theatre (to his ears) the dialogue won't be drowned out by the background music (?) and - frankly - he will be unable to see (or more precisely hear) what the problem is. As far as he's concerned - in that time-honored phrase, it will be 'all right leaving him'.       I know. I've been that person.

Now if we were to be able to bring back a few 65 - 75 year-old Dubbing Mixers, then it would be a different story (then it would be the boy-wonder producers and directors complaining about the mix!).

p

[Jako]

We are getting a bit off-topic, but for HD picture and HD sound there are two basics:

1-never use a scart cable, instead use HDMI and S/Pdif only.

2-never use the TV speakers, they are useless as flat sceens are too thin to provide proper sound. Instead use a separate amplifier that can decode Dolby Digital AC3 audio streams with at least 3 speakers (2.1)  and use the HD sound channel (DD AC3) that will provide between 2 and 6 high quality audio channels instead of the mpeg sound channel.

[JohnM]

I did read of a partial solution to the sound balance problem. On programmes / DVD's with 5.1 sound, the music is often on stereo whereas commentary is rock solid in the middle, so you can reduce the volume of the music yourself. I've not tried it because I don't have a problem with the sound yet so I'm sticking with limited audio capabilities of my old TV.

[Jako]

Astra 2E launch now set for september 29 21:38 GMT according to spaceflightnow.com.

No official confirmation on the Ilslaunch website.

It seems the Astra2E launch is caught in the middle of a political row between Russia and Kazakhstan: trend

[Martin963]

But it isn't just old age creeping up on us,  or a reduction in the beneficial properties of the "cocktail effect" (which it's generally recognised is negated once the sounds are picked up by microphones,  even a decent stereo pair).

A great deal of the problems actually stem from the fact that a lot of TV recording/filming is done with sound very much as an afterthought.   Gone are the days when sound people who knew what they were doing were sent out on location as a separate but important part of the crew,  AFAIK a lot of sound is now just an added burden for the camera-man (or woman).

Probably like Gyn_Paul,  we in Radio were taught about the dangers of background music being too loud,  particularly on material that would subsequently be compressed/processed.   But processing has become so much the norm now (particularly on radio rather than television) that - yes you're right - basic lessons HAVE been lost.....

I thought that there had been talk of a BBC wide review of this sort of problem a few months back - maybe I imagined it.   Seem to remember hearing about it on the PM programme....

PS  Was going to post a pic of my PPMs (from Ebay) but it's too complicated.   You should see Europe 1 or Virgin on them - makes Radio 1 look dynamically wide.