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Is it the TV, the films or am I going deaf?


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I've had a real problem following the dialogue on cinema films shown on TV since I changed to a flat screen LED TV which has the speakers facing to the rear.

 

I recently changed it for a bigger one (although tiny by most peoples standards) and whilst it is louder the same problem still occurs on some films especially those with a lot of background music and actors who whisper or mumble, I watched men in black 3 and had no problem then there was a robbery film with Jason Statham and Penelopé Cruz and I really struggled to hear what he was saying, it was like watching a French film and only getting some of the vocabulary and having to guess what was going on, at least I have refined the skill but could it also be that my ears are no longer attuned to the English language?

 

So are film sound tracks getting worse or are TV's now rubbish, I keep seeing barre de son's for sale so maybe its common to all these TV's unless you connect up surround sound speakers, mine is not wall mounted so the sound cannot reflect, its on a cabinat in a corner so any reflected sounds will actually cross each other and head off at 90°, could this be the problem?

 

Or am I just becoming deaf?

 

Pardon? [:P]

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It is my belief that the sound engineers on tv prefer the background noise/music to be louder than the actors.

I think that when I was younger my ears worked better and it didn't matter, but now, is quite a different story and often I cannot hear what is going on.

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Very simple answer ,  you pay several hundred pounds for a TV and at best it has a 2 bob speaker, if you have a decent sound system run the TV sound wise through that. Sound engineers like all technicians do as they're told and they produce "clean" sound, most background is added later in post production. Although I must admit the style of dialogue deliverance is now different to the past, and good diction is no longer considered to be a necessity for actors. Another thing is that 20 years ago you wouldn't hear one actor talking over another actors lines, now it's done all the time in the name of reality.

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I did a really good post explaining why but then it got deleted by accident but it is all to do with Dolby 5.1 and DTS used in films and modern TV series in that speech comes out the special central speaker and not out of the left and right ones. You need to buy a sound bar. I did a load of research on this and am collecting a PHILIPS - HTL5140B/12 - Barre de son today which has very good reviews and comes in at €255. Considering you can pay anything from €150 to €2k for one this was a reasonable price I thought. I will let you know how I get on. Nick is right the speaker quality in these things is OK but very limited due to the TV's being so thin, you just can't get decent speakers inside them. You may also find it improves a little if the TV is against a flat wall. It should tell you in the destructions where to place it and I have noticed just moving it towards and away from the wall does make a difference to the sound although it does not fix this particular problem.
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Chancer said :

So are film sound tracks getting worse or are TV's now rubbish ...

When my OH got his hearing aids last year he experienced a similar problem to yours when watching the television - a known snag - we found a more acceptable sound for him by changing the audio settings of the television itself.

Some settings seem to be clearer and crisper than others.

Sue
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[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Mr Betty bought a sound bar. I watch a different telly, and I use the volume control. It's a man thing. If in doubt, buy another gadget,?[/quote]

 

Well not really in this case because you need to understand the technology. Before we all went digital you got sound in just stereo or if you had a Sky box (back then) in Dolby Analog even though films were being recorded in Dolby Digital 5.1 (and the revised Dolby Plus) or DTS. Now we can recieve digital sound through our normal TV's it has become a problem because the TV's are not designed to have 6 or even 8 (Dolby Digital 7.1) speakers. With game shows and older TV programs it isn't a problem, same with adverts which is why they sound louder than films and more modern TV series.

 

Very basically they record normally in DTS or more likely SDDS, from five or seven placed microphones. Just to keep it simple we will talk about 5.1 and 4 microphones are placed left and right of the action at 90 deg to the actors and another 2 placed left and right but further away. They are placed at very specific distances from  what is being recorded (you can search for the exact distances if you want) and microphone number 5 is the one which is placed over the actors to record their speech. The .1 as in 5.1 refers to the enhanced base unit which also gives the feeling of vibration. Thats why when there are battle scenes you 'feel' the guns going off etc.

 

Your TV speakers can't repoduce 5.1 although they can trick you a little but the main factor is there is no central speaker to pick up the speech properly, that channel is mixed in with left and right. More expensive TV's do sometimes come with a central speaker. This is why you need a sound bar which typically mixes left and right back with left and right front and seperates out the central speech speaker as it has one in the middle at the front. It also comes with the base unit.

 

Some sound bars do have the back left and right speakers and they 'throw' the sound to the back of the room but these ones tend to be rather expensive even though they are a substitute for a full blow home audio system with speakers dotted around the room which gives the ultimate audio experience.

 

When you get to the 7.1 systems they add a further two speakers to the left and right of where you sit giving you an enhanced feeling of being right in the centre of the film and are more likely used with 3D films.

 

The difference between Dolby Digital DTS and SDDS is that Dolby digital packs all the audio into one or two streams (AC3) and in your home you have to unpack it and send it to the respective speaker. DTS and SDDS actualy put the individual sound channels on the disk so you don't have to seperate them out which takes up more space (hence using Blue Ray which is not just for the space requird for the film resolution) but the quality of the audio is much better because the frequency range is much wider as it is lost a bit with the Dolby system.

 

So if you watch a lot of films and more modern TV series you need at least a sound bar to get over the voice problem because you need that extra central speaker for without it you will always have a lower speech volume because the TV can't seprate out the speech. Even better if you can afford it buy a full on AV system with 5.1 or 7.1 so you can listen as the film makers intended.

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I reckon the answer is.... "my ears are no longer attuned to the English language"

I will explain my logic:

The sound produced by modern LCD TV's tend to be too tingy so I doubt it is the TV speakers. The reason you would buy a soundbar is get full depth of sound and to get rid of the 'tingyness'.

We have a LCD with a soundbar and one without because it does have surprisingly very good sound.

I don't watch English telly anymore. I only watch films in English once in a while which I download. I would say that I have exactly your problem. I can't pick up half of what they are saying. My very good hearing is not tuned to listening to Films/TV in English. They are speaking too fast for me. If I watched more TV then I am sure it would come back.

Edit: Just read the post before mine. I remember watching Doctor who last year and I had the same problem. I understood nothing. So it is not just films.
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Thanks for all your explanations and suggestions.

 

NickP, I dont have a sound system, I have an internet radio in the workshop which I listen to sometimes when working but frankly the omni-present repeated ads in that voix mielleuse just drive me to distraction, I no longer want to play LP's, I never bought any CD's except for a few in the car which rarely get listened to, I think I changed when I was travelling and realised how dumb it was to try and block out this wonderful world with music.

 

I have got rid of all the redundant rubbish like sound systems, the Freebox HD is now going as I have finally connected to TNT par antenne, a sound bar will not fit Under or in front of my TV and Ihere isnt really another place for it either plus I detest seeing cables snaking everywhere.

 

The explanation about the central speaker makes sense especially on movies and I also think not having heard English conversation for 11 years has had an effect, when I return to the UK I have the same TV as I had in France and after a week or so I had less problem, it definitely is more film related, I have tried changing the audio settings to speech.

 

I have watched French films at friends houses that have full home cinema audio and it was really impressive but you know, its just not my bag, I very rarely Watch the TV and maybe the answer is just to stop or to not Watch movies, I am no longer the couch potato that I was in a previous life.

 

The next house that I build will have gaines Under the floor for home cinema cabling, I helped my pal do his and thought (for me) it was a waste of time, I can now see the benefit.

 

This will make you laugh but I am going to try a sheet of plasterboard vertically behind the TV to see if that improves things which means I would have to then wall mount the TV, but having done that what do you do with the satellite reciever? The Freebox is no longer a consideration and the DVD player will soon be thrown away, I've only used it twice in 10 years and the last time it was black and white only.

 

Betty, this man definitely does not want to buy any more gadgets, hs stopped doing that a couple of décades ago when music went onto CD, he is now actively throwing away any unused gadgets, the kitchen yielded a huge volume!

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We had a cathode ray tube sony tv years ago that came with surround sound built in and with the magic centre speaker, yes it made a hell of a difference you could actually adjust each speaker to get the level you wanted, bring up the vocal if you wanted or drop it down for all the swearing.

If you watch some of the old programs Lovejoy etc you can see the difference between todays idea of having lots of background sound, it is supposed to create atmosphere!! they think it is better then being able to hear the dialogue. Just like the mentality of BBC sport where you can often hear the kick of the ball or the sound of the cars in F1 better then the commentary.

I swear the mixing in the studios is done by YTS trainees.

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Here's the thing, Quilan. I so don't "need to understand the technology". I have a cheap, smallish Toshiba telly that has a picture and sound. When I switch it on, they work I don't seem to have a problem, and I can hear fine.m That, from my personal perspective, is all I need to know. I don't give a monkeys about Dolby, Stereo, surround sound, or any other sound. If I can hear it, it works fine. I'm not a sound engineer or a technology nerd. If I listen to the TV,radio or anything else, if I can hear them, then the equipment and my ears are both working and that's all that bothers me. I slogged through the first half dozen episodes of "The Wire" which might as well have come with a Serbo-Croat soundtrack, but that was as much about impenetrable accents and street slang as it was about my hearing. Perseverance paid off, and I watched the whole series without problems. At no time did I think "Gosh, I must rush out and spend as much again as I just spent on a TV so I can hear my TV better". But, as I said, I'm not a bloke, and that's just the way my mind works. And, possibly, my ears, too.?
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I'm not a (typical) bloke either Betty in that I have the finger length thing that indicates I have a strong feminine side and I'm well aware of it.

 

Like you the last thing I want to do is buy another gizmo that in my case will cost several times the price of the TV, unlike you though I do have difficulty, perhaps due to hearing loss working in the machine shops and coppersmiths shops, perhaps also with age, like you I had no problem when I had a bulky CRT television with better speakers and like others I have no problem with the sound on old TV series and films.

 

Quillans reply was usefull to me in that I can now understand the issue although I have not the slightest temptation to buy anything or have cables snaking around for the "cinema experience" I can go to the cinema for that, done so probably twice in 10 years.

 

I will either ditch the Skybox and go back to only having French TV or do as Angela and use the sub titles, an inspired suggestion. I went maybe 9 years without UK TV and have only had the Skybox maybe one year but the novelty is wearing off, I need to Watch more French TV where surprisingly I dont have the same problem even on films but thats probably because my mind is used to filling in the blanks.

 

Editted. Betty there is no doubt in my mind that women have a far better connection between their ears and their brain, never has it been more apparent than since moving here, i might as well be speaking martian to 99% of blokes, how many times do I see them turning to the woman and saying "qu'est ce qu'il a dit?" and they repeat word for word what I have said without any hesitation.

 

And as for the men who claim to be à l'écoute that is the biggest joke of all, they are the most fermé by a country mile.

 

It was the same in the UK but nowhere near as noticeable, now I see it when they are talking to immigrants. 

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Well I picked up my sound bar this morning and got it plugged in (quite simple just two wires) and have been trying it out on recordings I know I had problems with before.

 

One program I had a problem with was Transporter: The series, episode 3 (The Switch) with the scene set in an art exhibition which is more like a disco and you could never hear the characters talking because the music appeared to drown them out, now I can hear everything they say. So clearly having a central speaker works for voice.

 

No mucking about with a setup etc. The Samsung found the sound bar immediately it was turned on and turned off the TV speakers automatically and transferred the volume buttons to the sound bar. If I turn off the sound bar it reverts back to the TV speakers automatically. It also works fine with my mobile phone and tablet for playing music as it connects via Bluetooth although I probably won't be using it much for that.

 

Definitely a major improvement on the TV speakers and even better gets a gold star from Mrs 'Q' who was also suffering from the same problem as Chancer and myself. Mrs 'Q' also like The Expendables series of films as she also does the Die Hard ones and the dialog is much better in both especially in the action scenes. That said if we could have 'saved' our old Philips TV which has given excellent service for 20 odd years I would have stuck with that. I do think these modern LCD TV's are sold on the basis that you need to buy an external sound system for them if you want decent sound and that they should not be so preoccupied in making them so thin then they could have stuck bette speakers in them. I think that's backed up by the shops. When you go to places like Darty the only ones they have setup that you can listen to the sound on have external AV units with speakers. You can't play with the ones on display because they lock up all the remote controls.

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What are the two cables (wires you said) that plug in? I had been looking at all the sockets on the back of my TV and none of them seemed to be for audio except audio in.

 

Not that I am going to buy one that is [:P]

 

Maybe in the future I will do some remodelling, put the TV on the wall and find a discreet place for the satbox, can anyone answer my qurie about what to do with all the boxes when the TV is wall mounted? I only really have one to worry about though, maybe 2 if I can fix the DVD player.

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The very first thing I can remember 'not' hearing clearly was the film Les Visiteurs, so most certainly french and not helped by some of the actors not speaking clearly, ie Valerie Lemercier!! The sound on that film was simply a load of rubbish.

And that was a long time ago when my ears worked very well, AND when we only had french tv, and had had for say 14 or 15 years so I was quite used to it.

Hearing properly......... well do any of you ever watch QPUC, with Julien Lepers....... now I usually have no problems with people speaking quickly in french, but he, well, he is a runaway train and I do have problems hearing him these days...... so has he changed or have I, or both, as I have watched him on this program for donkey's years, and I don't remember him talking so quickly in the past.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

What are the two cables (wires you said) that plug in? I had been looking at all the sockets on the back of my TV and none of them seemed to be for audio except audio in.

[/quote]

 

It plugs into one of the HDMI sockets. HDMI sockets don't just deal with video but audio and Ethernet (the latter depends on how old your set is). There are two types of HDMI but they look the same, one should have HDMI (ARC) written next to it, if not then check the manual. This is an IN/OUT  HDMI where as all the rest are IN only. You need this one so the TV and sound bar talk to each other and use 'Plug and Play'. Thats how the TV knows there is a sound bar and that it is turned on or off so it can turn its own speakers on and off accordingly. Thats what I men it does it all for you. When you you use the TV remote to turn the sound up and down it turns the sound bar volume up and down f the sound bar s turned on, smart stuff. So there is one for power and one to connet to the TV. The base unit (I guess you would call it a woofer) needs power but connects to the soundbar via Bluetooth so only one cable for that.

 

Because we can't get TNT we have to use the Orange satellite box for French TV and of course our Humax for UK TV. They are on the TV table (well on the shelf under the TV) and we have the TV on a stand on the TV table. Interesting to note that there must be a difference between being on the wall and on a stand when it comes to sound as in the menu you need to select one or the other depending where you have it. I didn't fancy putting it on the wall because I don't want it up higher than it is because I have a bad neck and prefer it at eye level when sitting down. You also have the issue of cables running up the wall (you will at least have power and an arial cable) but being on a stand the cables are hidden down the back.

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Chancer says......

"Maybe in the future I will do some remodelling, put the TV on the wall and find a discreet place for the satbox, can anyone answer my qurie about what to do with all the boxes when the TV is wall mounted"

There is no law that says you need your boxes anywhere near your telly. In fact a telly looks so much better without all the fuss.

When you do your re-modelling, bury a few HDMI cables and an ethernet cable in the wall with a socket and put your boxes somewhere else more discrete in the room.

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There is nowhere discreet because they all need to be in line of sight for the infra red remote control to work, plus its really weird having to point at the TV and then elsewhere for whatever box it is, been there done that.

 

The new Freebox revolution has a Wireless remote but you probably need to see the display, in any case I no longer need that for TV although it does have other functionality for those that like that sort of thing, me, it aint my bag, I have probably recorded 3 programmes in 8 years. Others they have multiple satellite recievers and recording devices, a chacun son gout.

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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Hold on a minute... .....you receive french telly through your internet box type thingy. Not through an ariel on your roof ?????[/quote]

 

Most ISP packages include TV either by internet or satellite it simply depends on your bandwidth. I think it is a minimum of 4mbs these days as TF1 etc are in HD only now so the higher the definition the more bandwidth you need, plus a bit over for real internet and the phone of course. If the speed is low then, with Orange at least, they will send you a free satellite decoder with card rather than an TV by internet box and it used to be 90 Euros towards getting a dish installed. The French, with the exception of bandwidth, are well in advance of the UK and have been for years. You need to talk to your ISP.

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Sorry, yes I know. That was not my point.

Two things. The ultimate in picture quality and 'sound' will come from an ariel in France for French telly.

Secondly, if Chancer has an ariel receiving French TV (which he watches mostly2) then he does not require a receiver in the area of his TV. The mess of boxes that allow him to receive UK TV/watch DVD (occasionally) can be hidden somewhere else and linked with an HDMI.

That was the logic...somewhere...that is now lost
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I already explained that the Freebox HD (that what I used to get French TV from) is now redundant and will be removed, I also said that I would probably ditch the Skybox and revert to just French TV.

 

Pay attention at the back [:-))]

 

Reception and picture quality is indeed better via the antenne plus it doesnt slow down the internet or keep rebooting, however I do lose the HD channels and a few others in bad weather, ta line of tall trees some considerable distance away prevent me from aligning with the strongest transmitter despite my building and antenne being probably the highest in the village.

 

I cables all the flats to the antenne a long time ago but couldnt spare the time to do my own one when I already had a means of watching French TV, as of next month I will be a whole €2 per month richer, the TV programs used to be within my forfait and then the government made some tax on triple play and the abonnement went up to €31.98, I was very slow to react to that one, a sure sign that things are no longer tight chez Chancer.

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I watch TV on my 27" computer monitor and listen to the sound (and music ) on headphones.

They give a much cleaner sound.

A great part of the problem is the dreadful lack of articulation and slovenly pronounciation that has become common in the UK.

French news presenters don't seem to have the equivalent of Essex accents.[8-|]

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