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HADOPI Letter


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Well surprise surprise I actually got a response via Email from "La Commission de protection des droits" today and it has been painful reading for me being in French and making sure I understood exactly what it says.

The basic answer for those offering WiFi in their B&B or Gites is don't. The holder of the Internet ISP account is totally responsible for what happens on his/her side of the router. They can't offer anything to help stop this from happening and all they can do is offer some text to add to my "Charte Informatique" (I assume everyone has one of these [:(]) which we are supposed to give to our guests. In a nutshell all it says is they shouldn't use Bittorrent or any other software that downloads anything subject to copyright illegally. If they do and if I can identify them they will be fined 1,500 Euros and I as the owner of the contract with my ISP will be subject to a fine of 7,500 Euros. The tone of the text is that guests shouldn't do it because I will get in to trouble.

If anyone wants the whole text (in French) and it is very long with lots of links which are totally useless for me then email me (don't PM as I can't forward it) and I will forward you a copy.

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[quote user="Quillan"]The holder of the Internet ISP account is totally responsible for what happens on his/her side of the router.[/quote]Twas ever thus but I don't know what the answer is, perhaps a proxy server with a parental control type software controls !

A satellite system might be worth looking into, particularly if it could be billed to a non French address.

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I thought we had previously discussed this system for controlling access for guests.

http://www.gites-internet.com/

That website is just someone offering the service to their members, but the company behind it is here.

http://www.2isr.fr/brochures/2ISR%20-%20Brochure_Clic_et_Surf.pdf

Le WiFi chez 2ISR c’est une offre tout compris pour 19,90€ HT /mois !
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Won't 'work' for Hadopi because their ‘box’ is on your side of the router. All you can do according to their literature (assuming I have read it correctly) is limit their time to use, provide a ticket to let them use it, charge them if you want and keep a log of where they 'go'. It does not appear to actually stop them downloading illegal content. Therefore yes you can tell "La Commission de protection des droits" who they are if you get pulled and they may well fine them but you will also be fined for allowing them to do it as it is on your side of the route.

However a little further research and something somebody else mentioned (and it is free) is we have enabled the hotspot on our Orange box. Orange users can use it for free and non orange users can buy a 'pass' to use it. The beauty it would appear of this system is there is no extra bits to buy, no monthly charge for me and it is not on my side of the router as it all 'belongs' to Orange. Also Orange under Hadopi laws is obliged to keep a record of who uses it not me.

The only negative side of this is that the cost to the user is quite high if they are not Orange users but I guess that’s their problem not mine. Orange do have roaming deals to use other ISP's hotspots like BT in the UK for example.

http://www.orange-wifi.com/en/roaming.htm

 

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I just take a perverted pleasure at the absurdity of French legislation.

Being god fearing you follow their advice to the letter, someone comes to stay who takes a dislike to you for whatever reason, maybe they are having a bad day, peu importe, they know nothing about downloading files but your guest information tells them that if they do so then it will cost you €7.5K, they spend a little time on google finding out how to do it and then they stuff you.

 

You the gite/chambre d'hôte owner are completely innocent of this offence which would not appear to be an offence if no complaint is made, you have done everything that has been asked of you, you submit the details and home address of the guilty party, at best they get a bill which is probably just an invitation to pay for €1.5K you get one for €7.5K [:-))]

You contest it and end up spending fortunes over the next few years fighting them, the guilty party who lives in the UK just throws away the letter, probably not even understanding it.

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What a strange approach to dealing with what amounts to theft (of copyrighted material).

Why isn't Orange fined for allowing the use of a system which can be used illegally?

I wonder if anyone has yet challenged a fine in a court of law - although this would  probably have to have been done about ten years ago to be anywhere near a verdict by now [:(]

I assume, by similar logic, that under French law, if A hires a car to B, who then uses it for a robbery, that A is liable to be punished as well B?

Q. Since your hotspot connection is available to anyone, even if they are outside your property, you can use this yourself with impunity to download anything you wish[:D]

 

 

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[quote user="nomoss"]Q. Since your hotspot connection is available to anyone, even if they are outside your property, you can use this yourself with impunity to download anything you wish[:D][/quote]

not so, as anyone who uses the Orange hotspot has to login with their Orange ID and password [Www]

Danny

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[quote user="Danny"][quote user="nomoss"]Q. Since your hotspot connection is available to anyone, even if they are outside your property, you can use this yourself with impunity to download anything you wish[:D][/quote]
not so, as anyone who uses the Orange hotspot has to login with their Orange ID and password [Www]
Danny
[/quote]

I stand corrected, I forgot that point [:$]

 

 

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It is their Orange email account and password, the original account that you got when you first bought their ISP services or in other words the primary email account according to their website.

If you are non Orange user and buy 'time' on their hotspot network then you have to give all your information like address, phone number etc.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view) there is no way round their system unless you hack it but then is it really worth all the time and energy.

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[quote user="dwmcn"]

Q,

We get the occasional email from someone using the names of people my wife knows on facebook. One is a neighbor across the street. They are usually ads for weight loss and the like. Nothing sinister.

David

[/quote]

Yes, and? I don't understand where you are coming from.

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Q not for one minute do I think, the upstanding citizen that you are, would do such a thing but, a gite / b&b owner could download all sorts of copyright files and then say it was Mr Xehbftadct from Bongo Bongo land who stayed here so go chase him.
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Having slept on it that is the reason why the most logical way is to enable your router to become a Hotspot. That way if you're pulled then you have nobody to blame but yourself or your family. For the guests, well it may be a pain but then for the owner they know that nothing can happen to them because the guest is inside the Orange (in my case) network and not theirs.

When I was looking around for information on Bittorent (I was told that companies use it for legitimate reasons enabling staff to download date, publications etc) I saw a post by somebody who said they do all their 'illegal' downloads when on holiday using a laptop and free WiFi in hotels. Somebody in the reply said that the bigger the hotel the less (in fact zero) chance of being caught. So clearly it would seem that there are some dodgy (I was going to say nasty) people out there that have no qualms about illegally downloading stuff even when they know it is the owner who will be the one prosecuted if it is discovered.

The negative business side of all this is that many people expect free WiFi these days. We have had guests who actually only book once we have confirmed we have it. Most of our competition offers free WiFi and in this highly competitive business you feel obliged to do the same or lose business.

There is hardware and software out there that can help although not in France and the reason is two fold. ISP's at a business level offer business systems which include phones etc but it all runs through their specific routers and equipment so you can't use a third party product with a hotspot in a hotel. The Hadopi law does not cater for businesses where you could run a logging system thus prove who the culprit was as in their view it is you that is responsible.

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  • 2 years later...

I just got my first warning from Hadopi [:(] It could be one of 4 guests that night, I know exactly what one it would have been but cannot prove it, they took the pi55 in many other ways and I was glad to see the back of them.

 

It was quite surreal to read my own reply to this thread written a couple of years ago and to find myself in exactly that position!

Madame, Monsieur,

 
 

  Il a été constaté le mercredi 09 novembre 2016 à 16 heures 54 *, qu’une ou plusieurs œuvres ont été téléchargées ou partagées depuis votre accès à internet ( adresse IP ***********), en violation des droits d’auteur. Ces faits peuvent constituer une infraction pénale. 
 

Vous avez souscrit un abonnement à internet auprès du fournisseur d’accès à internet Free SAS / ProXad, vous êtes donc légalement responsable de l’utilisation qui est faite de cet accès. Votre connexion a été utilisée pour mettre à disposition, sans autorisation, des oeuvres protégées par le droit d'auteur, avec le(s) logiciel(s)/protocole(s) uTorrent.

 

Il vous est recommandé de prendre sans délai toute mesure utile pour éviter une nouvelle atteinte au droit d’auteur. A cette fin, vous pouvez consulter les fiches pratiques « usage et internet », disponibles sur le site internet de l’Hadopi : www.hadopi.fr/ressources/fiches-pratiques qui vous apporteront notamment des informations pour sécuriser votre ligne. Vous pouvez également vous rapprocher de votre fournisseur d’accès à internet.

Si, malgré les avertissements de l’Hadopi, votre accès à internet est à nouveau utilisé pour des mises en partage ou des téléchargements illégaux, vous pouvez être poursuivi(e) devant le tribunal de police pour contravention de négligence caractérisée. Vous risquez alors une amende d’un montant maximum de 1500 € (7500 € pour les personnes morales). Retrouvez toutes les informations utiles sur www.hadopi.fr/acces-au-formulaire-reponse-graduee-jai-recu-un-mail.

Le téléchargement illégal, appelé couramment « piratage », prive les créateurs de leur rétribution et représente un danger pour l’économie du secteur culturel, or il existe de nombreuses offres légales sur internet. Si vous souhaitez des renseignements sur l’offre culturelle disponible en ligne et les offres labellisées par l’Hadopi, vous pouvez consulter le site internet www.offrelegale.fr. Au cas où  une oeuvre que vous cherchez ne figure pas parmi l'offre légale, vous pouvez la signaler à l'Hadopi sur www.offrelegale.fr/oeuvre-introuvable.

Pour obtenir des précisions sur le titre des œuvres qui ont été téléchargées ou mises à disposition, vous pouvez utiliser la voie électronique en cochant la case prévue à cet effet sur le formulaire suivant : http://cpdform.hadopi.fr/. Vous pouvez aussi faire votre demande par voie postale à l’adresse indiquée ci-dessous.

Vous  avez également la possibilité de formuler des observations et d'obtenir des renseignements en contactant l’Hadopi :

  • Par voie postale :

Hadopi - Commission de protection des droits,

4 rue du Texel,

75014 Paris

  • Par téléphone au  09.69.32.90.90 (Appel non surtaxé)

Veuillez agréer, Madame, Monsieur, l'expression de mes salutations distinguées.

 

Dominique GUIRIMAND

Présidente de la Commission de Protection des Droits de l'Hadopi
 

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Effectively blocking torrents is not only technically challenging but is also constantly moving target because for every method or technique used there will be as many or more ways to defeat them many of which those inclined to use torrents will be familiar with.

There are commercial solutions but you could be talking thousands of Euros.

One possible solution which I would consider in the circumstances is a proxy PC through which all users have to connect, this can be set up with a blacklist of prohibited sites but this would only be as secure as my diligence in setting up and maintaining the filtering, as I'm certain you lost me after the first syllable of proxy such a solution is probably not for you !

The only 100% guaranteed way I'm aware of is direct physical supervision of users !

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Nearly all the hotels I have stayed in require you to login to their internet to access free WiFi. This way they can give the information of the people using their access points.

Many ISP routes, Orange, BT etc allow people to connect to them although they must use a login and password. Orange for instance allows you to login to any of their "Hot Spots" in countries they are active using your Orange email address and password. If you don't have one you can create an account and buy a WiFi "Pass". Of course for some it will mean paying (Orange etc.) to use the Internet.

http://www.orange-wifi.com/en/offre_wifi_pass.htm

The other alternative is to setup your own Hotspot using a Windows (or Linux) computer with a second WiFi connection. You then need to look around for some software and there is some free stuff out there.

Search on "captive portal windows software", if you have a Linux machine then substitute Windows with Linux. Basically you need to get their name, address etc. plus the mac address of their device. You can collect the latter when they login via the portal but the free versions don't allow you to store their name, address etc. so you would have to keep a paper list.

This means you may still get a letter but you can hand over the users name, address, phone number and mac address (the latter they will have anyway) then they will go after them and not you.
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Thanks for the response Cathartours but I will just be ignoring the whole subject until such time as I ever (never) get dragged to court, I have shown la bonne foi by respondinga sking for more détails not that they will be of any use to me, they dont actually ask who did the downloading if you did know, they dont care! Its just a government body spunking away public funds sending out warning letters.

The reason for me ignoring it apart from not giving a **** is my inaptitude with all things computerised, AnOther absolutely has the measure of me in his witty posting:

 

as I'm certain you lost me after the first syllable of proxy such a solution is probably not for you !

 

I suppose the organisation serves its purpose just like most laws in France by scaring 99.99% of the populace into compliance and frightening the others to do their torrenting whatever that is at the premises of people like myself.

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[quote user="Cathar Tours"]Basically you need to get their name, address etc. plus the mac address of their device. You can collect the latter when they login via the portal but the free versions don't allow you to store their name, address etc. so you would have to keep a paper list.

This means you may still get a letter but you can hand over the users name, address, phone number and mac address (the latter they will have anyway) then they will go after them and not you.[/quote]You think ?

MAC addresses can be spoofed but even if not there is no log or record of what machine any  particular and genuine MAC address belongs to making it useless for tracing anybody and just what do you imagine they are going to do to a 3rd party anyway even if they did track them down ?

The bottom line, at Chancers level at least, is that the account holder is responsible for everything and even if they were the offenders laying it off to others won't wash.

The stupidity and futility of HADOPI is that it can only monitor P2P or torrents, it cannot monitor direct downloads so anybody so minded can download what they want whenever they want and for as long as they want and with a risk factor so low as to be dismissed as next to non existent.

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Maybe you could come up with a warning notice worded in suitable techie talk - you might need to get some help there [:)] - to the effect that all connections via your WiFi are continuously monitored and protected, and that any illegal activity will be recorded together with details of the user, and (automatically?) passed to the authorities.

Coupled with a system where you issue passwords to get into your WiFi, keyed to peoples' names, signed for on a document with personal details and ID numbers, it might scare off the dodgy guests. Make the "system" slightly OTT but not too much so.

EDIT: And don't tell ANYONE it's a faux system. And in as many languages as appropriate.

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You might be on to something there Nomoss.

I am (usually) totally against bombarding guests with rules, information, do's and don'ts etc (which are always ignored anyway) I think it leaves a bad impression, according to the certification bodies I should be sermonising guests as to what they must do to save the planet, how to wipe their bums in an eco way (I'm not kidding) a whole raft of patronising crap that will of course be ignored, I am even holding back from putting signs and pictograms on the rubbish and recycling bins (I have them in the rooms with the yellow recycling bags) and just resign myself to having to sort through other peoples sh1t on dustbin collection days.

 

But a notice like the above where i have the Wi-Fi code displayed in each room would not go amiss, I dont think my guest router will accept multiple passwords mores the pity but if it does it would further re-inforce the impression if each room had a different password.

 

I wont need the signing a register etc, I can look back and know who was in each room on a certain date even if I wont know who did the torrenting or whatever it is, the key thing is that they wont know! Also signing a register is just more grief when I am trying my best to ensure guests have a hassle free stay, I am supposed to put them through the wringer, have them fill out a great big form for the Gendarmerie, take copies of their ID cards and passports etc, another big hassle that brings no benefits to me just like all the intrusive personal détails that the Comm de Communes want me to give them with the taxe de sejour, something else that I ignore.

 

One of these things one day will come back to bite me on the bum but to date it hasnt happened  and I somehow doubt that it will be Hadopi, that said I would prefer not to have any further avertissments, I knew that these Chancers (irony not lost on me!) were downloading something as soon as they arrived as the ADSL connection slowed to a crawl, I may even have disconnected the guest router for 10 minutes as I often do especially when loud obese Australian women are shouting at their grandchildren on Skype in the middle of the night [:P]

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