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I am not vegan, but...


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[quote user="Limousin Lass"]

Don't eat a lot of meat and am not sure after watching the bits I did see that I will eat much more, am so glad I have fish this evening.

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Fortunately it doesn't have to be like that.  It's not meant to be representative of the European farming industry, is it?  I can't see it changing my eating habits.

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Oh, Christine I thought they were going to be some nice videos to show the opposite way of keeping animals.  Why is it the people working in these places have to be so insensitive to animals feelings.  I could, just about, understand the need for factory farming of some animals BUT I cannot and will never understand the need for such cruelty.
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Christine

awful, awful -

I stopped eating all meat/flesh in about 1988, initially it was a gradual change, but even the thought of the pigl forced onto vehicles with electirc prodders at my school (Burford School in Oxfordshire, which had its own farm at the time) was enough for me.

But, I am with 2 carnivores, but can't convince them to change, but they get vegetarian food as often as I can.  In France it's difficult to find much when eating out even though I am not a vegan - sometimes think I should be though.

I think cruelty has increased in Europe - Halal/Kosher slaughter for example, and sadly the kind of people who do this kind of work do seem to become immume to the cruelty all around them & some even start with a nasty attitude to animals.  Animal cruelty us even worse outside of Europe.

Upsetting to see these videos Christine, but I do believe you are right in showing what is happening.  The world seemed not to know what was happening in Nazi Germany, some denied it, many did not believe it, and some claimed it could never have happened.  

We need to make people more aware of what is happening now & here in 'civilised' Europe.

tegwini

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They don't "have to be so insensitive" there is no "need for such cruelty".  There are examples of good and bad husbandry and slaughterhouses everywhere.  Let's get some sense of balance, please - Christine is not claiming that this is typical of how the entire farming industry is run and so we should boycott meat products.  No-one would turn vegan on the evidence of a few videos on YouTube, unless they were truly feeble minded, though they should rightly be disgusted at the videos that Christine has selected and it's natural to protest about it when such practices are exposed. 

I wouldn't stop listening to all music just because someone posted a few videos of  James Blunt (cue James Blunt fans to howl in protest).

Here, try this one.  Nice, happy cows in France:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=CDp2IVQPZEI&NR=1

and here

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=bjy65Vl4gbs&NR=1

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=hhfSnq4xzqQ&NR=1

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I'm with Frenchie on this as I'm too much of a coward to watch what MIGHT have been on Christine's links. Sorry, Christine, but you know I'm all for animals but my heart just could not take more than I already know that goes on around the world.

Sick! Sick! Sick!

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As unpleasant as the content of the links posted by Christine were / are, it is important that we, Joe public, become more aware of things that are classed as acceptable in our world

If ever there was a website which could jolt the most hardened mind into shunning horsemeat, it has to be horsekillers.com  <- not a weblink, sorry, but most browsers will find the site.  It also gives another slant on the American rodeo circuit and the consequences of 'entertainment' - not a pleasant one either.  A word of caution: The welcome page is distressing enough, most of the filming in the clips available has been done covertly and is horrific.  It is most definately NOT for the faint hearted.  I thought I had seen it all, until I saw some of theses videos.  Please do not watch them if you are easily upset.

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This is the one which really shook me, posted once by Chris pp.  I couldn't finish it, it is very long  EarthlingsI no longer see the packets of meat in the supermarkets in the same way.

I was trying with the previous links to show the horror of the industrial farming, where little beings are grown and cropped, throwing out the rotten ones, like champignons de Paris.  The champignons are probably treated with more care.

When we see the nice clean packets of meat, we should at least know how it got there and spare a thought for all those poor little devils.

I have just seen that in 2012 the battery hens will have larger cages, 150 square centimetres extra, the size of a postcard, on top of the A4 piece of paper size they now have.  What progress!

I have also just seen in the magazine "30 Millions d'Amis" photos of the dogs piled up high squashed on top of each other in cages in China.  You can go on and on.

I haven't seen your horse film Lou, maybe I'll have the courage to do so!

 

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I sat & watched Earthlings, no mean feat as my wireless connection is capricious at best - how did humans get to be SO inhumane?  I accept that when we were running around in loincoths hunting for dinner and killing it, that education was a little short of what we have at our disposal today.  How many steps backwards have we taken since then?  I have to admit to a wry smile when the elephant trampled the humans - if they HAD to shoot it (and they probably did have to), WHY use such a small rifle??  Similar to trying to kill a human with several poorly aimed air-rifle pellets.

I am a meat eater, & when in the UK, I know where my chicken & beef is farmed & I know where they go to be slaughtered and I have a very good working relationship with my butcher... & I do not buy my meat from supermarkets.  Here, however, I know that I am subscribing to everything I find morally wrong, each time I buy meat, purely because I can't say I know anything about the origins of my evening meal.

In a similar vein, a documentary was aired in the UK last year, following the working lives of some of the employees of an abbatoir in Yorkshire.  The deaths of the animals involved became almost an irrelevance next to the utter contempt with which they were treated.  It was a re-run of the worst case of immature schoolboy bullying, in the hands of licensed killers - and that was all you could describe them as.  They made Josef Mengele look like a respectable research scientist.  It wasn't the slaughter that was offensive, it was the behaviour of 'civilised' man that was contemptible.

Jamie Oliver hosted a TV programme, last year, with the popular 'green' lifestyle advocate, Hugh Fearnely-Whittingstall; all about chicken farming.  To precis the programme, he explored the various routes by which the roast chicken arrived at the table, asking a cross-section of diners to reveiw the taste differences, even obtaining his licence to slaughter chickens - which he undertook to do in front of said invited dinner guests {unsurprisingly not actually aired on prime time tv!}  to underline his point.  Which was, quite simply, not asking people to give up meat, but to care about the meat they ate and notice the difference in taste between the mass-produced bird and the humanely-reared counterpart.  He also gave a few of the UKs biggest supermarkets a severely uncomfortable ride.  One of the biggest still sells its 'cheap' chicken - a product which farmers cannot produce caringly for the price that supermarkets are willing to pay.  It became clear that the consumer wasn't the biggest bad guy, but, in fact, the supermarket buyers.  Many of the farmers interviewed would have preferred to give their chickens the better life, albeit short, but would have lost their supermarket contracts had they done so.

Earthlings is a wake up call to all of us who have become complacent about life in general.  I'm not advocating vegetarianism or veganism, just a conscience and a little caring.  There ARE better ways.  It is the responsibility of the consumer to start asking the questions and voting with their feet.

And, Christine, you are right:  the glossy, blood-free, sterile environment we enter in a supermarket, makes us forget, for a moment, about the life that was once in the styrofoam container.  I used to think that I could never raise an animal from infancy and then kill it to eat it.  Recently, however, I wonder if maybe I could- knowing that that animal had lived a peaceful and unmolested life thus far.  Perhaps all we meat eaters should try it?

Phew!  Sorry about the rant!  Time for a glass of wine (organic! - an accident, I promise) to soothe the fevered brow!  Soapbox back on shelf - but only til next time.

 

 

 

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Lou, if you want to find good quality meat when you are here, there are farms who raise and sell their own meat, where the animals have had better living conditions and proper food.  Some are ferme-auberge and some sell their meat and charcuterie.  I did a search for Viande à la Ferme, but you could do the same by adding your département.  Even if you go to your local village boucherie or charcuterie, you will usually find better products than in the supermarkets.

Viande à la Ferme

I've just done the Deux-Sèvres

There is one near Melle where they do their own pork.

 

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Thank you for that, Christine - isn't the internet a wonderful thing... sometimes?!

I just did a search for the Charente & came up with a couple of interesting possibilities, so that was worthwhile

Downside was the addition of a couple of foie farms too... and an article about gavage hey ho!

As for local merchants, our commune has a church and a bar.....  If one doesn't work, then you can always seek salvation in the other, I suppose!!

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I'm sorry but I think this is getting a bit out of hand.

Tegwini - you couldn't watch Christine's videos, so how do you know what was in them.. You also said Cassis's clips showed animals teasing other animals - sorry, but I must have missed that bit, where was it?

Re Christine's videos, since when did we eat monkeys, elephants and various other animals shown in the clips? If people want to make a point about animal cruelty (and I have no arguement with that) then at least make it relevant.

"It was a re-run of the worst case of immature schoolboy bullying, in the hands of licensed killers - and that was all you could describe them as.  They made Josef Mengele look like a respectable research scientist.  It wasn't the slaughter that was offensive, it was the behaviour of 'civilised' man that was contemptible"

Lou, I find it incredible that you could compare the practices in an abattoir (however dreadful you think it) to the horrific treatment of human beings at the hands of the Nazis.

I love my animals and look after them the best I can, but I have no qualms about eating meat - if fact I enjoy it. I support good farming practice, and humane methods of animal rearing, but there is a ridiculous tendancy to give animals human emotions. They are not humans, they are animals - just watch the way a cat will play with a mouse before it dies, or a killer whale will toss a seal around before eating it, or a dog will shake a rat. Nature can be the cruellest thing on earth. 

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Centenarian Tips for a Long Life

"Diet: The Cornerstone of Longevity
It is no surprise that diet is an essential factor to health and longevity. So what should you be eating? In my studies, I found that the centenarians of two reputed "longevity capitals" - Okinawa, Japan, and Rugao County, a rural community four hours north of Shanghai - shared a nearly identical diet.

These long-lifers eat mostly fish, vegetables, mushrooms, seaweed, corn, and buckwheat - and virtually no meat. Scientists have confirmed the health benefits of a diet high in fish and vegetables and low in animal products. These centenarians are living examples, as they suffer from very little heart and liver disease and have negligible rates of cancer and degenerative diseases."

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[quote user="Christine Animal"]

Centenarian Tips for a Long Life

These long-lifers eat mostly fish, vegetables, mushrooms, seaweed, corn, and buckwheat - and virtually no meat. Scientists have confirmed the health benefits of a diet high in fish and vegetables and low in animal products. These centenarians are living examples, as they suffer from very little heart and liver disease and have negligible rates of cancer and degenerative diseases."

[/quote]

How fortunate that in France we have the much more instructive and relevant example of Jeanne Calment, who verifiably outlived these comparative youngsters from the east, and who ate and drank with gusto. It must be admitted, of course, that her giving up smoking at the age of 118 must have made a great difference to her life-span.

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[quote user="Rob Roy"]

I'm sorry but I think this is getting a bit out of hand.

"It was a re-run of the worst case of immature schoolboy bullying, in the hands of licensed killers - and that was all you could describe them as.  They made Josef Mengele look like a respectable research scientist.  It wasn't the slaughter that was offensive, it was the behaviour of 'civilised' man that was contemptible"

Lou, I find it incredible that you could compare the practices in an abattoir (however dreadful you think it) to the horrific treatment of human beings at the hands of the Nazis.

[/quote]

For the record, my father was a major contractor (technical) to several abbatoirs in what was my local area.  I have witnessed the varying practices involved in converting cutesie farm animals into tomorrow's evening meal.  There was and still is, an enormous disparity between the professionally and / or humanely operated slaughter houses and those run at, perhaps, a more reduced cost, or without adequate controls and supervision.

Josef Mengele was, arguably, if not misguidedly (and utterly wrongly, in my humble opinion), genuinely interested in "what happens if..." .  Let us pray that the actions of the so-called 'Master Race' are never repeated.

The individuals I wrote of were, quite simply, interested in their own entertainment. It wasn't the killing of the animals, it was the goading, torment and inane torture, totally unecessary and extraneous.  Most offensive was their very obvious delight in their actions.

As I wrote previously, I am a meat-eater.  I just prefer to do the best that I possibly can to ensure that my chosen meal has had as dignified a life and death as possible.

We are all entitled to our opinions and those which do not match our own are not, necessarily, the incorrect ones.

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Rob Roy

If you take the trouble to read my post you will realise I said that I could watch only part of Christine's link.

And, Cassis's link showed cows in a field with some silly humans - or whatever you chose to call them,  teasing the cows.   This made the humans look like fools - not the cows.  Your comment about  eating monkeys etc I don't get that.    Not mentioned by me. An irrelevant comment I believe.

Also,  I am entitled to my opinion & to choose what I eat.  As a historian I have no illusions about man's potential for cruelty & ability to rationalise this cruelty.

tegwini

 

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