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is it ever acceptable to use disability in part of criticism


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I certainly do not think famous people should be treated any differently to any other person.

Perhaps you would expect them to have higher standards.

Sometimes it may be their behaviour that is their disability.

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The answer is a BIG NO at this end.

No insults,no mockery at disabilities or physical differences, it is not acceptable. Whether people are the average person or famous ones.

One of our students in school was regulkarly mocked at  because he was ugly.

He committed suicide.

He was 17.

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But disability can also be viewed in a positive way, I am thinking of such people as Douglas Bader and Simon Weston. Both helped a lot with other disabled people showing them that life can go on and you can still become quite successful.

Some disabilities can have a positive effect, take Douglas Bader again. It was said that the reason he was such a good WW2 pilot was because he had lost his legs. Without his legs, the blood in his body had less distance to travel. This gave Douglas an advantage in tight combat turns, enabling him to stay conscious when most other pilots would black out.

Look at the Para Olympics and the bright young people that take part.

Another person who I have a lot of respect for is Alison Lapper. I watched a documentary on her last year. There was criticism of her and the artist who created an excellent statue of her pregnant and naked to go on the blank plinth in Trafalgar Square (LINK) . Alison is also an accomplished artist in her own right despite having no arms and short legs.

In short there are a lot of inspirational people out there with disabilities of various types. Should we make fun of them using their disability NO, should we treat them differently NO.

I never knew GB had a bad eye by the way until I read the other thread, it still does not change my opinion of him.

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Never should anyone use disability as a criticism, however the english language is rich enough to give so many interpretations, for instance a project or persons could be described as short sighted, irrespective of their physical capabilities, and it does throw up the real problem of dealing with real shortcomings with real disabilities and exactly how one proceeds? Pete & Dud One leg too few [Www]

Edit, Incidently, My father thought this sketch was hysterically funny, and he lost his left leg in Operation Torch in North Africa.

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I see where you are coming from Ernie but then are we going to pigeon hole people because of how they received their disability ?

If a non disabled person is taught to treat disabled people the same as themselves then surely they should not discriminate between the types of disability and how they were received. Should we discriminate against say the late Christopher Reeve because he fell off his horse but not against a person born with a birth defect. Should we then discriminate against those with birth defects because their mother say took a drug that caused the birth defect, Thalidomide for example.

When I employed people I would look at their qualifications first followed by experience and then interview them. Their skin colour, sex, religion or physical ability or disability didn't ever come in to it. I just wanted the best person for the job.

In short we should treat all people the same and making selected comments about a person because of their disability is, in my book, the same as racial discrimination.

Its an interesting subject in a way because it makes you think. Its not something I have really thought about in the past probably because I see people for what they are and not their colour, sex, physical appearence etc.

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[quote user="ErnieY"]Might it be useful to perhaps maintain some sort of division between congenital disabilities and those brought on by one's own actions, i.e. voluntarily participating in dangerous sports ?

[/quote]

I can't see this as a fair division, for me the biggest division when offence occurs is in the perception and ability to deal with it,
some are (rightly) offended, some laugh it off and some completely ignore it and move on. 
Equally it shouldn't be used as a smokescreen to cover other shortcomings.

 

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All the residents where I am at the moment are disabled - some permanently, some termporarily.  Do we joke about our disabilities amongst ourselves? - Yes.  Do the staff make jokes about our disabilities - no, of course not, or they would get the sack.  Some of the inmates here have mental as well as physical problems.  Would those who are physically disabled make jokes about those with mental disabilities?  No.  What might well be acceptable as a joke amongst those with similar problems, or even their close relations, becomes totally unacceptable when other do it. 

Ernie, about 90% of the young men in here are here because of motor bike accidents.  So is it OK to make fun of their resulting disabilites because they chose to ride bikes?

But then if we are obliquely referring to Mr Clarkson's crass remark the other day we should not be surprised.  Throw away ignorant comment is his stock in trade. It is not now, and has never been in any way, funny.  A less humerous individual I find it hard to imagine and it's no shock to be reminded that he has to resort to insult to get a laugh.

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[quote user="powerdesal"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/4566359/Soldier-becomes-first-amputee-to-guard-Queen.html


How utterly disgusting for his so-called mates to call him 'hoppy'     
[/quote]

I think from my experiences with my father it was more a level of intimacy that grants a level of jocular familiarity which is two way, (a bit like you may talk to your partner in private[Www])
certainly some people were allowed to make a joke about it and would get a riposte while others knew perfectly they were not on those terms and would regret any levity (usually civil servants dealing with his DLA!)

Edit : My father thought of himself most of the time as a normal chap, only occasionally reminding himself of the reality, I think the humour he saw in the Pete & Dud skit was exactly the language in which people have to skirt round the issue, both sides not knowing what ground they stand on so to speak.[8-|]

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The fact that a remark was made about a disaability just to get a laugh by Clarkson tells us a lot about the guy .....If he has to stoop to that level in order to keep up his profile then perhaps its time he jot a job washing cars instead of trying to be cleaver talking about them ?
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[quote user="ErnieY"]Might it be useful to perhaps maintain some sort of division between congenital disabilities and those brought on by one's own actions, i.e. voluntarily participating in dangerous sports ?

[/quote]

 

As one who hsa taken part in so called dangerous sports Ernie, I think your concept is flawed.

 

So firstly, please lets have a defined list of such sports and pastimes - once you start you'll find it hard to draw a line - solo climbing (unassisted) - definitely in; mountaineering - in; climbing - in; scrambling (on rocks) - in (I think); extreme hillwalking - er out, or maybe in or....; walking -out  etc..  (on this point I have seen insurance policies that say you are covered for such outdoor activities provided you don't use a rope.  So you don't use one when you should and you get injured and the policy pays out - brilliant logic!)

 

And if you do sort out the list of pastimes, what about dangerous working environments - we all know rigs are dangerous places to work and to get to - otherwise you wouldn't have to pass the helicopter escape tests.  And then there are building sites - one of the most dangerous work environments in the Western world - so in or out?  and if in, by extension - what about DIY - a major cause of accident and injury.

 

..............and so it goes on.

 

Your list would not agree with mine, and mine would not agree with anyone elses.

 

 

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Re the article about the Guards soldier nicknamed Hoppy. I think you really have to have been in the armed forces to understand that these things are not actually meant with any disrespect to the individual. People get their nicknames based on attitude or physical stature or both. We had a guy called Tinker Bell, nothing to do with sex but to the fact his surname was Bell. Another guy who was called Tiny because he was 6ft 7" and a member of the ground crew was called [email protected] Nose because every time you asked him a question he said [email protected] knows. Now for all we knew Tiny could have suffered from some sort of growth problem and [email protected] Nose could have suffered from Teretz (which we had never have heard of back then) but that was not why they got their nick names. We had a guy called Luigi because his mum was Italian, it was not his real name of course.

With regards to people with physical disabilities (lost leg etc) in the forces I never came across one so I can't give any personal experience although I can understand his guards chaps mates calling him Hoppy. Being in the forces is like being in a family and you are very close. After all your life could depend on your mates so all these nicknames used were terms of endearment rather than offensive.

As for Clarkson, well I do find him funny (sorry) and sometimes I think he often says things that some people actually think but never say. He hates caravans and caravaners, I have a caravan but I know how he feels sometimes when stuck behind one going really slow for miles on a road where you can't overtake, I call the driver loads of names. But then I am in my car and I hope nobody hears me, bit like being in the Green room at the BBC? Unfortunately he does sometimes step over the line with some flippant throw away comment and this latest comment about GB is a prime example. If he left the one eyed bit out some may still have taken offence. Like him or loath him he is what he is.

I hated The Office by the way, used to make my skin crawl, for me it was because I have seen too many offices the same in real life I guess.

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Chief's personal experience and Cooperlolla's answer on the 'factual or harsh' thread express very clearly why this is not acceptable.

In her reply Coops didn't  mention handicap. Perhaps by omission, or perhaps because, like me a long time ago, she was severely injured in a car crash last year. I was handicapped for long enough to realise what it is like (it took me 3 years to learn to walk again). I sincerely hope, like all of us here I am sure, that she will make a full recovery.

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[quote user="odile"]Chief's personal experience and Cooperlolla's answer on the 'factual or harsh' thread express very clearly why this is not acceptable.
[/quote]

Is the "not acceptable" a general comment or are you refering to the artical about the member of the Guards?

One thing Cooperlolla said was "Do we joke about our disabilities amongst ourselves? - Yes.  Do the staff make jokes about our disabilities - no, of course not, or they would get the sack.". Now whilst people may not share the same disability amongst themselves in the armed forces it is, as I said, like a family and any joke is amongst the guys (or girls). Go for a night out and somebody else (like a civilian) calls them the same name as the lads or takes the mick they are more than likely to find themselves spread all over the car park. I think perhaps if you have not been in such an environment you would find it difficult to understand.

Having said that I do struggle with any justification as to why a young prince allegedly called a member of his platoon Paki. I can imagine them calling him 'the sheik' or something like that but not Paki. We had a coloured lad nicknamed Cassius (shows how old I am), because he was big, black, was always down the gym and liked boxing (he boxed for the RAF regiment). I am sure if he didn't like being called that we all would have known about it and we would never have dreampt of calling him W*g or N*gger which even then would be classed as extremely racist. We used to take him with us for a 'visit' to the Fir Tree pub in North Camp (I was seconded to the RAE at the time) to wind the wingnuts up, the only guy I knew who could take on two para's at the same time and walk away afterwards without a scratch.

 

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Re the article about the Guards soldier nicknamed Hoppy. I think you really have to have been in the armed forces to understand that these things are not actually meant with any disrespect to the individual. People get their nicknames based on attitude or physical stature or both. We had a guy called Tinker Bell, nothing to do with sex but to the fact his surname was Bell. Another guy who was called Tiny because he was 6ft 7" and a member of the ground crew was called [email protected] Nose because every time you asked him a question he said [email protected] knows. Now for all we knew Tiny could have suffered from some sort of growth problem and [email protected] Nose could have suffered from Teretz (which we had never have heard of back then) but that was not why they got their nick names. We had a guy called Luigi because his mum was Italian, it was not his real name of course.

With regards to people with physical disabilities (lost leg etc) in the forces I never came across one so I can't give any personal experience although I can understand his guards chaps mates calling him Hoppy. Being in the forces is like being in a family and you are very close. After all your life could depend on your mates so all these nicknames used were terms of endearment rather than offensive.

As for Clarkson, well I do find him funny (sorry) and sometimes I think he often says things that some people actually think but never say. He hates caravans and caravaners, I have a caravan but I know how he feels sometimes when stuck behind one going really slow for miles on a road where you can't overtake, I call the driver loads of names. But then I am in my car and I hope nobody hears me, bit like being in the Green room at the BBC? Unfortunately he does sometimes step over the line with some flippant throw away comment and this latest comment about GB is a prime example. If he left the one eyed bit out some may still have taken offence. Like him or loath him he is what he is.

I hated The Office by the way, used to make my skin crawl, for me it was because I have seen too many offices the same in real life I guess.

[/quote]

I guess that my attempted sarcasm in respect of my comment ''How utterly disgusting for his so-called mates to call him 'hoppy'  '' was misunderstood, out of place or just plain silly.

I have served as a Regular in the RAF and as TA. I fully agree with Quillans comments above, including re Clarkson and the Office. I too tow a caravan !!!!!!

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[quote user="odile"]Please do read their comments on said thread. Thank you.

I think perhaps that thread should be locked. I really believe however that there would be no justification for removing it.
[/quote]

She never posted on the other thread (Factual or Harsh) so whats to read?

As the OP of the other thread are you asking us to lock it?

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