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Retaining invalidity level reimbursements after retirement age.


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I recall reading that a few forum members lost invalidity level reimbursements from CPAM on reaching UK state retirement age. There's an article on the Connexion website HERE suggesting that it might be possible to maintain reimbursements at the invalidity level, even after state retirement age.

Hope it is of interest.  

 

 

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It seems a shame that no one has added to this thread so I'll explain what happened to Mrs Benjamin.

Age 60 and Incapacity Benefit ceased and was replaced with the UK State Retirement Pension. We heard nothing from Newcastle and frankly the significance of this passed us by.

In April last year I was reading a thread on here and realised that we should have received/asked for a replacement E121. We contacted Newcastle and one was eventually received which, with some trepidation, we took along to our local CPAM. It was accepted without question and things have proceeded along perfectly normally ever since. I appreciate a year is not a sufficient legth of time for CPAM to question it but as yet nothing.

The reason for the story is that it's the responsibility of Newcastle to issue the E121. What else would you then expect CPAM to do other than accept the replacement E121?

If there was a reference to the new piece of legislation in the article then perhaps it's worth looking into.

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A little update to my posting yesterday.

I've just had a conversation with the Incapacity Benefits section in Newcastle. They have heard of this ruling but do not have any particular information beyond that.

As expected they can't/won't change a current E121 where a previous recipient of Incapacity Benefit has passed the standard age to move onto State Retirement Pension.

What they will do however, if requested, is to confirm in writing that a person who is now receiving State Retirement Pension was previously up until the age of 60/65 years

in receipt of Incapacity Benefit.

This looks to me to be a good starting point to approach the French authorities.

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Hi Benjamin, Glad the article was of interest, although, as you say, it is rather vague.  I agree with the point in your first post, that CPAM can only process the retirement E121 in one way, if there is no additional information... although they must have a dossier showing the previous 100% attestation.  Also, if already assessed for a carte d'invalidite, then medical information is on record in France too. Maybe not in the right office, though?! 

If the article (link in first post) is accurate, new guidance has been issued to CPAM offices instructing them to assess each case individually. Although, I wouldn't expect CPAM to be proactive; they have no reason to re-examine a dossier unless requested to do so.

CLEISS reportedly made the ruling and issued guidance to CPAM offices, so perhaps it is worth speaking to them and/or the English speaking CPAM helpline.

CLEISS - (France's helpdesk for international mobility and social security):
Tel: 01 45 26 33 41 www.cleiss.fr

CPAM - The French Health Service (English language service): 08 20 90 42 12

Good luck with the investigation.

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[quote user="David"]

With regard to the 100% medical cover from CPAM, do we know if French disabled people retain this cover after reaching retirement age, and is it means assessed?

David

[/quote]Yes, they do, David.

I have spoken at some length to Larry Fulton (of Exclusive Healthcare) as it was he and his staff who led the charge in getting this change and, as many of you may know, also has strong connections with the magazine in question (please excuse the pun!) This was his main point in arguing this case  - ie the fact that the French keep the 100% reimbursement level at retirement.

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Thanks for that Coops,

As you know we have talked about this before, and I am sure that keeping the 100% cover from CPAM will make a huge difference to all disabled people at retirement age.

Is this 100% cover means tested, or is it for all retired disabled French people?

I have to say that with pre-existing conditions I do not know if I could get top up cover if I lose my 100% at retirement age in two years time.

Are there any medical requirements under the French system for keeping the 100% cover?  Or would it be automatic if it was in place before retirement?  Presumably there will be some differences as the 100% cover before retirement would be dependent on UK disability allowance, whereas after retirement it would be dependent on French requirements.

As a personal note I have been assessed as 50% to 79% disabled under the French system, but my condition is getting worse and my GP has suggested that I reapply and I should be reassessed at between 70% to 79% disabled.  I am not sure what the practical difference is between 50% and 70%, or the significance of 79%, so I do not know if this is worth the hassle.

David

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Can I firstly suggest that you follow your French GP's advice and apply to be reassessed?

Secondly are /were you receiving Incapacity Benefit from the UK?

If you have an E121 covering your disability then when you become retired in two years time and if the French authorities will not let you retain incapacitated (is there such a word?[:D]) status you simply apply for top up cover without having to declare any pre-existing conditions as far as I understand the situation. The people who probably will not be able to get medical coverage are those coming to France without an E121 but with pre-existing conditions.

As far as re-establishing the incapacitated status after UK State Retirement age then you'll have to wait and see how I get on on behalf of Mrs Benjamin (see posting above).

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Thanks Benjamin, I will follow your advice.  I have to say that these days, things seem to be getting to be too much of a hassle, and I tend to just give in.  I never used to be like this.

Can you remind me please where I get the forms to be reassessed?  The first time, I went to the sub-prefecture in Bressuire for the forms for a parking badge, but I was told that I was at the wrong place.  However, the very kind lady phoned someone and arranged for the proper forms to be sent to me.

Yes I do receive incapacity benefit from the UK, and my E121 incapacity box was ticked , thus I now receive 100% cover from CPAM.

I had not realised thay you were applying to re-establish the incapacitated status of Mrs. Benjamin, so I will wait to see how you get on.

May I wish you success in your endeavour; from your past postings you seem to be the most qualified poster to try to take on the French system.  Perhaps Coops can assist you, if you need any assistance that is.  I am sure that many people on this forum will be cheering you on, as will I.

Good luck,

David

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David

Thanks for your kind support which should really be kept for the likes of cooperlola and several others who did real work in reversing the French Government's initial unjust decision relating to early retirees already living  in France.

The place where we applied for Mrs Benjamin's parking badge etc. used to be known as COTOREP but I believe their work has now been incorporated into another department known as MDPH (maison départementale des personnes handicpées) although if it's the same as our departmental town you'll probably still find them in the same building.

I understand what you mean by being worn down by having to jump through hoops. We had considered re-locating to the UK for six months to qualify for DLA but at the end of the day decided that the sheer upheaval of the move was simply not worth it.

Best of luck with your reassessment. Perhaps your GP could write a supporting letter for you?

 

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David -

The forms you need to be assessed for the carte d'invalidite are available on line. However if you already have a dossier (already have a carte d'invalidite) it might be worth calling the MDPH first? I don't know; only just received the first one!

I went through the process, for the first time, recently and it was pretty straight-forward. I filled in the forms (links below), which involved a trip to the doctor. I sent the forms to the local MDPH, as Benjamin says (found the address on Angloinfo).  Following that, there was an appointment for an interview with an MDPH doctor, during which no medical checks were done; the lady said that she had all the information she needed on the medecin traitant form. The interview was worthwhile, as financial assistance with equipment was offered and there were a few questions about how my partner & I cope day-to-day (I'm a carer) which made me feel that assistance would be there, if needed.

To be completed by the claimant:

http://www.travail-solidarite.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/identification-2.pdf
http://www.travail-solidarite.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/demande_carte.pdf

To be completed by the medicin traitant:
http://www.cnsa.fr/IMG/pdf/certificat_adulte.pdf


The guidance notes HERE say that the processing time is four months. This was the case for my partner.

One further tip about printing these forms. My printer produced gobbledygook until I set it to 'print image' in the printer settings.

Hope this helps. Good luck, it was straight-forward yes, but long-winded also! I think I spent a whole afternoon photocopying justifications to go out with the forms. These things were ever thus. [:)]

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Benjamin,

[quote user="David"]May I wish you success in your endeavour; (...) many people on this forum will be cheering you on, as will I.[/quote]

I'll second that. Here's hoping that you blaze a trail for the rest of us.  This issue is 15 years away for my partner, so I very much hope that you'll have set a precedent by then!

Bon courage.

 

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Benjamin and Ame,

Many thanks for all your kind help, and particular heartfelt thanks to Ame for the links and detailed advice.

Bon Courage to both of you, and also thanks to Coops if she is reading this for her work in this matter at a time of great difficulty for her.

David

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Just a small update.

We were in our CPAM office this morning (chasing up some missing reimbursements) and briefly raised this issue. The person we were talking to went away to find out from a colleague but returned and said they had no knowledge of this ruling from CLEISS.

I've just emailed Exclusive Healthcare to see if they have any more information or reference documents.

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Spectacular result.  [:D][:D]

Exclusive Healthcare forwarded my email to an individual who is a customer of their's and who I believe those of you who were involved in the FHI web site may already know.

He kindly emailed a copy of a letter he received last year from CLEISS (Centre des Liasions Européennes de Sécurité Sociale) confirming that people from other EU countries were entitled to be treated the same as French people with incapacities both before and, cucially, after reaching state retirement age.

The piece of covering paperwork is l'article 3 du règlement (CEE) no. 1408/71.

Mrs Benjamin now reverts back to the situation she was in before submitting her "retirement" E121 to our local CPAM and she is covered 100 (%) sauf médicaments à 35 (%).

The only slight downside was that we stopped at our local AXA office to explain the new situation but were told that they were not prepared to reduce Mrs B's premium. Guess what we'll be doing at our next anniversary date?  [6].

The individual who helped me is keen to hear of other peoples' experiences concerning this so if you want his contact details then p[lease PM or email me and I will pass them on.

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but we were told that they were not prepared to reduce Mrs B's premium

I suppose that's to be expected. By law they aren't allowed to load premiums or refuse business because of pre-existing conditions, rates being based solely on age.

No loading in the first place, so no reduction now.

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Great stuff.  Although our website is not truly "live" at the mo' (due to lack of hands!), we'll try to cover this at any rate.   I'll be in touch.  Thanks for getting to grips with this, Benjamin.[:)]

Mr Exclusive had assured me that progress had been made but I wasn't sure exactly how much this had filtered down to grass roots level.

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[quote user="BJSLIV"]

but we were told that they were not prepared to reduce Mrs B's premium

I suppose that's to be expected. By law they aren't allowed to load premiums or refuse business because of pre-existing conditions, rates being based solely on age.

No loading in the first place, so no reduction now.

[/quote]

This was also the (charitable) view that we took. Although we're normally very keen to be covered by insurance we are thinking of winging it for Mrs Benjamin after our present contract ends

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Congratulations Benjamin,

FYG I presently have 100% cover from CPAM due to a "disabled" E121, and I do not have top up cover.  So far I have not regretted this, even after several serious operations in France.

Some questions arising, which I would be grateful if the forum could answer.

I see that when a disability E121 changes to a retirement E121, the beneficiary is then subject to a French medical before being granted 100% cover.  Thus, just because the UK authorities grant long term disability allowance, thus giving 100% cover in France before retirement, there is no guarantee that the French authorities will give the 100% cover for retirement after the medical exam.

Does anyone know at what level of disability the French grant 100% cover for retired people, or is it dependent on particular disabling illnesses?  What are the requirements?

When granted this retirement 100% cover, do dependents also receive this level of cover?  Presently although I receive 100% cover, my wife does not.  I am not yet of UK retirement age, but my wife is of UK retirement age.

David

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[quote user="David"]

I see that when a disability E121 changes to a retirement E121, the beneficiary is then subject to a French medical before being granted 100% cover.  Thus, just because the UK authorities grant long term disability allowance, thus giving 100% cover in France before retirement, there is no guarantee that the French authorities will give the 100% cover for retirement after the medical exam.

Does anyone know at what level of disability the French grant 100% cover for retired people, or is it dependent on particular disabling illnesses?  What are the requirements?

David

[/quote]

I can't really help you David except to repeat Mrs Benjamin's experience. When we were at CPAM last week there was no mention of a French medical being required. The staff accepted the CLEISS copy letter although they did double check by telephone with them.

It may have influenced them that Mrs Benjamin has an ALD.

On reflection I think that anyone with an incapacity E121 would do as well not to request a retirement E121 when they reach that age. Looked at from the French point of view and what we now know about the CLEISS ruling it seems to me that this is an entirely appropriate view to take.

Bear in mind that Mrs Benjamin was in her 63rd year before we realised we should change to a retirement E121 (erroneously as it now transpires). I don't think that Newcastle have any mechanism for re-issuing the E121 when a previously incapacitated person reaches retirement age.

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  • 2 weeks later...
[quote user="Benjamin"]

What they will do however, if requested, is to confirm in writing that a person who is now receiving State Retirement Pension was previously up until the age of 60/65 years

in receipt of Incapacity Benefit.

[/quote]

A further update on this earlier posting.

Today Mrs Benjamin has received a letter from The Pension Service, Newcastle. The relevant section is as follows:

I am writing in reply to your letter dated 8 April 2009. I can confirm that prior to you receiving Retirement Pension, you were in receipt of Incapacity Benefit which stopped when you reached age 60.

This may be of interest to anyone who was previously in receipt of Incapacity Benefit but who comes to France after retirement age with a "retirement" E121. Armed with an equivalent letter you should be able to convince CPAM of your classification of incapacitated.

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Thanks for your very helpful posts Benjamin.

I will be replying, but I have to find some papers sent to me by CPAM as I think my acceptance to CPAM, and also my entitlement to 100% was limited to the day I reached 65 years old.

Thus I will have to reapply to CPAM when I reach 65, and I do not have a French ALD although I do receive UK long term disability benefit.

Thanks again for your posts, Benjamin and Ame,

David

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