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Hi Everybody,

I wonder can you cast some light on this little potential ticking time bomb to come out of the UK.

We just received this letter pasted below. So I rang on the morning of the 2nd August. I’ve been receiving Carers Allowance for my husband since 1999 when he became left stroke disabled.

This was suspended when we moved to France on 7th October 2007 and then was reinstated on 29th April 2009 with back payments. When I rang CASTLE COURT the senior decision maker there informed me that I now do not comply with the eligibility conditions. Apparently I was entitled to carers allowance in 2007 to 2010 but now I am not. Does this mean that social security contribution credits are only awarded for three years after someone moves abroad?

I told them that my husband was still in receipt of long term Incapacity Benefit but this does not seem to make any difference. After a couple of hour’s deliberation he rang me back and from what he said he seemed as confused as we were. He said he was going to request for a referral to the Decision Makers Services about this eligibility ruling for their clarification and confirmation. He said this will take about 10 days.

He also dropped a little bomb shell that ALL the reinstated Carers Allowance that everyone had received after the EU ruling in October 2007 had this payment reinstated ONLY on a temporary basis to be reviewed annually by the Carers Allowance department. He said I was no longer insured for sickness benefit.

He was very nice about it and he could not understand why NO ONE had been told at the start when the Carers Allowance payment had been reinstated that it was ONLY TEMPORARY

Now this case may seems like it only applies to N. Ireland, but N. Ireland follow the rules of the rest of the UK in respect of benefits because N. Ireland tax and insurance earners pay into the same government treasury pot as the rest of the UK. What transpires in the rest of the UK happens in N. Ireland and vice versa. Has anyone heard of any other carers receiving similar letters?

Thanks

Wild Geese

Copy of letter received

An Agency within

DSD

Department for Social Development INVESTOR IN PEOPLE

SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY

DISABILITY AND CARERS SERVICE,

CASTLE COURT, ROYAL AVENUE,

BELFAST BT1 1HR

TEL (028) 9090 6186 FAX (028) 9049 0220

Case Ref: blank

Customer Ref: blank

Date: 27/07/2010

Dear Mrs blank

About Carers Allowance

We have changed the decision about Carers Allowance.

You are not entitled to Carers Allowance from and including 4/1/2010 Decision

Carers Allowance will be paid to some people who move to live in another EEA state or Switzerland, if they meet certain eligibility conditions. Your Carers Allowance cannot continue to be paid because you do not satisfy any of the eligibility conditions. This is because you are not in receipt of State Pension, Long-term Incapacity Benefit or Bereavement Benefit, nor are you insured for sickness benefits from the UK and are not a family member of a person insured for sickness benefits from the UK.

What information we used

We considered the following information:

Contribution records from Inland Revenue

EC Regulation 1408/71

If you disagree with or do not understand why we have made this decision

If you do not understand why we have made this decision and you want us to explain it further, you can contact us by telephone or in writing. Our address and telephone number are shown at the top of the front page of this letter.

If you think our decision is wrong, or you have any information that we have not taken into account, please telephone us or write to us within one month from the date of this letter and tell us the additional information. We will look at the claim

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Be very careful with these people about your carers payment, I should know as I have had a long run in with them which has left me nearly £10,000 in debt to them. I have refused to pay them back and since them due to this they have reduced payments and I have until 2020ish to pay them back at £9 + per week. I did all the right things but due to their uselessness, left me hating any contact with them. I have seen all the wrong sort of people getting payments so when you come up againts them do not be suprised that unless you cannot speak English come on a back of a lorry etc, you will be hounded until death for what you have paid in all your life. Is'nt G Britain wonderful!!!!!!!
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O.M.G.

Thanks for your prompt reply

In my case When I said that I could not afford to pay them back from January of this year I was told that I wouldn't have to as it was an error on therir part not sending the letter out until now.

.

I thought everything was going to be ok once the carers allowance was re-instated due to the ECJ ruling. There was no mention of the fact that once you leave the uk your national insurance contributions eventually stop leaving you in a position of not being able to claim sickness benefits in the uk. I think this is where the problem lies. The fact that my husband is in receipt of long term incapacity benefit doesn't alter their decision. Before our benefits were re-instated I applied to the French authorities for carers allowance and was awarded an amount slightly less than the uk as they do not allow a set 35 hrs per week. This took months to go through all the obvious paperwork and meetings etc, but eventually I was granted an award. Shortly after this the uk decided to re-instate my carers alowance so any money that was given to me from the French government was duly given back to them. Now I will have to re-apply to the French Government again which will again take months to assess, leaving us on a very low income. Also I am now worried that the same criteria may apply for my husbands DLA and that may get stopped shortly. Great Britain is really wonderfull.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Hello everyone am new to this forum but have been reading it for some time. I have been told the same about national insurance from blackpool lot and I am 'a family member of person insured for sickness benefits' cos OH gets dla again now so any idea of whats going on?
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[quote user="wild geese"]  I thought everything was going to be ok once the carers allowance was re-instated due to the ECJ ruling. There was no mention of the fact that once you leave the uk your national insurance contributions eventually stop leaving you in a position of not being able to claim sickness benefits in the uk. I think this is where the problem lies. The fact that my husband is in receipt of long term incapacity benefit doesn't alter their decision. Before our benefits were re-instated I applied to the French authorities for carers allowance and was awarded an amount slightly less than the uk as they do not allow a set 35 hrs per week. This took months to go through all the obvious paperwork and meetings etc, but eventually I was granted an award. Shortly after this the uk decided to re-instate my carers alowance so any money that was given to me from the French government was duly given back to them. Now I will have to re-apply to the French Government again which will again take months to assess, leaving us on a very low income. Also I am now worried that the same criteria may apply for my husbands DLA and that may get stopped shortly. Great Britain is really wonderfull.[/quote]

Sorry for the delay in getting into this thread, it sort of passed me by.

CA was reinstated under the ECJ ruling and as you say, reinstatement is taking place.  CA can be reviewed annually and DLA is also subject to regular review, even if awarded 'for life'.  And now, so is long-term incapacity benefit under the new regulations and your husband should have had forms to have his IB reassessed.

Does your husband still receive DLA, was it suspended and has it now been reinstated?  And how long have you been in France?  And how old are you both?

I think one of the major problems that you face is that you have claimed benefit in France and in doing so, despite your husband having an E121 (I assume if your husband is in receipt of long-term IB), you made France your (not your husband's as CA is paid to you, not him) competant state as far as benefit was concerned and as such, the UK is under no obligation to pay you CA or any other health benefit.  If they are using the competant state rule, they are only applying the same rules that France applies and many other European countries so it's not HMG being awkward, it's an immovable rule I'm afraid.  I think the UK's error was in not realising that you had been in receipt of French benefits and they didn't have to reinstate your CA.

I'm not having swipe at you here wild geese but I've said repeatedly throughout the DLA/CA/AA campaign that nobody who is in France and is in receipt of a health benefit can rely on it being there forever and benefits, like the return from shares, can go up and down or may be removed completely or re-jigged as IB is being right now, and people may well loose benefit.  Relying on benefits for a life in France is not a good option.

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[quote user="norma jean"]Hello everyone am new to this forum but have been reading it for some time. I have been told the same about national insurance from blackpool lot and I am 'a family member of person insured for sickness benefits' cos OH gets dla again now so any idea of whats going on?[/quote]

Rather a cryptic message, I don't understand what you mean, could you give some more information please and then we may be able tell you what's going on?

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Thanks Tony.

Today I received a phone call from the decision maker in Belfast to confirm that the decision to stop my carer's allowance was correct and that my only recourse was to appeal the decision. I was told the reason was that my national insurance contributions were not now sufficient enough for me to be able to claim a sickness benefit from the UK. Apparently the Carer's Allowance department conduct a short term incapacity test. The decision maker is going to send me an explanitory letter as it sounded very complicated on the phone. It had nothing to do with the fact that I received an allowance from France, in fact the decision maker suggested that I re-apply in France whilst waiting for the outcome of my appeal as it could be months before any outcome.

In answer to your questions, yes my husband is still in receipt of DLA, yes it was suspended in October 2007 when we moved here and was reinstated last year. My husband is 58 and I am 52. He is in receipt of long term incapacity benefit and holds an E121 of which I am his dependant.

You said

'Relying on benefits for a life in France is not a good option'

We came here because the cold damp weather in Northern Ireland left him in extreme pain due to his Stroke. The doctor said that if we moved to a warmer climate it would be beneficial to him and he was right as my husband now takes significantly less pain killers.

I thought Europe had a pollcy of freedom of movement within its borders for all European citizens and not just EU citizens with money. Until my husband had a Stroke, 11 years ago he worked all his life and paid all his National Insurance contributions as well as serving his country in the Armed Forces and in my opinion

deserves any and all benefits due to him.

Regards.

Wild Geese
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[quote user="wild geese"]It had nothing to do with the fact that I received an allowance from France, in fact the decision maker suggested that I re-apply in France whilst waiting for the outcome of my appeal as it could be months before any outcome. In answer to your questions, yes my husband is still in receipt of DLA, yes it was suspended in October 2007 when we moved here and was reinstated last year. My husband is 58 and I am 52. He is in receipt of long term incapacity benefit and holds an E121 of which I am his dependant. You said 'Relying on benefits for a life in France is not a good option' We came here because the cold damp weather in Northern Ireland left him in extreme pain due to his Stroke. The doctor said that if we moved to a warmer climate it would be beneficial to him and he was right as my husband now takes significantly less pain killers. I thought Europe had a pollcy of freedom of movement within its borders for all European citizens and not just EU citizens with money. Until my husband had a Stroke, 11 years ago he worked all his life and paid all his National Insurance contributions as well as serving his country in the Armed Forces and in my opinion deserves any and all benefits due to him. Regards. Wild Geese[/quote]

I understand what he told you yesterday but if you go to Appeal at Tribunal, they will, for sure, refuse you on the grounds of your competant state status, it's happening to people already who have appealed after claiming benefit in France and have been refused in the UK.

I really do understand what you say about your husband's service and his right to claim benefit, which of course he is doing and which he is receiving.  But it's your benefit that's under attack, not his and I'm sorry, it dosn't detract from the fact that benefit is always in the gift of HMG and whilst there's no indication at the moment that benefits will be withdrawn, evidently benefits are under threat for future claimants and the various reviews that are going on are designed to get as many people as possible OFF benefits and back into work.  I think those of us living in the EU and claiming benefits are probably the more fortunate because of the various EU criteria/decisions but it still doesn't detract from the fact that benefits should be seen as a 'bonus' not as part of people's core income because they could disappear at any time.  As for the EU being completely free and open, it took a decision in 2007 for HMG to be brought into line with the rest of Europe and as we all know, they only did it finally this year and then reluctantly.  AND we're still waiting for the decision on the other parts of the benefit still outstanding!

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[quote user="wild geese"]............ I thought Europe had a pollcy of freedom of movement within its borders for all European citizens and not just EU citizens with money. ..... Wild Geese[/quote]

 

Wild Geese I feel deeply for your situation and hope that you are able to find a solution through the French system; but lest others have a similar and unfortunately false impression:

 

There is no freedom of movement within Europe - the policy is one of free movement of labour.

 

To add credence to this I cite the requirement of the French Government for a minimum income before you can become resident.  So yes movement is linked to citizens with money.

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

[quote user="norma jean"]Hello everyone am new to this forum but have been reading it for some time. I have been told the same about national insurance from blackpool lot and I am 'a family member of person insured for sickness benefits' cos OH gets dla again now so any idea of whats going on?[/quote]

Rather a cryptic message, I don't understand what you mean, could you give some more information please and then we may be able tell you what's going on?

[/quote]

sorry for delay OH unwell. He got dla in S003. We moved to spain in 2005, lost dla. Heard about change in law in december 2007 and wrote to blackpool dwp. Had the run-around from them until june this year when OH got dla care bit back (never had mobility). I waited until begining of july and contacted about carers cos I put in application for it after ecj (I never got carers in uk as I worked and paid for private care) and got letter last week same as wild geese about not enough national insurance. I am appealling.
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[quote user="norma jean"] I waited until begining of july and contacted about carers cos I put in application for it after ecj (I never got carers in uk as I worked and paid for private care) and got letter last week same as wild geese about not enough national insurance. I am appealling.[/quote]

Norma Jean, I'd be very interested in hearing the outcome of the appeal.  For sure, the reason why you've been rejected is the NI contributions and the fact that you've fallen foul of the 26/52 week rule because you haven't claimed CA previously and you're now submitting what is in effect a new claim.  As you've been out of the UK for so long. I can't see any way that they will allow your appeal, which unless you've already been through the immediate appeals system, will be dealt with locally by other DMs in the DWP.

From what I've seen from the various MPs concerned and the DWP/Minister's statements, the DWP are only bound by the ECJ 2007 decision in relation to reinstating claims that they unlawfully terminated when people move to other EU countries.  They've all made it clear - and I seem to remember seeing something in writing from the EU guy responsible for all the EU pressure on the DWP/HMG - that new claims are NOT covered by the ECJ decision.

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[quote user="andyh4"]To add credence to this I cite the requirement of the French Government for a minimum income before you can become resident.  So yes movement is linked to citizens with money.[/quote]Technically true however a tad disingenuous as the minimum income for a couple is pretty meagre, around €900/mth or so I believe, hardly a sum calculated to exclude the less well off.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Hi all,

Just sending a copy of the letter of explanation from the Carer's Allowance dept in Belfast which I received today.

Regards

Wild Geese

If you get in touch with us tell us this reference

SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY

Disability and Carers Service, Castle Court, Royal Avenue, Belfast, BT1 1HR

Our phone number: (028) 9090 6186 Our fax number: (028) 9049 0220 Website: www.nidirect.gov.uk

Case Reference Date

26/08/2010

Dear

I am writing to you with regard to your request for an explanation of our decision to disallow you entitlement to Carers Allowance from and including 4/1/2010.

As you are aware the European Court of Justice decision amended the the classification of Carers Allowance from a Special Non Contributory Benefit to a Sickness Benefit and as such the United Kingdom could be deemed the competent state for payment of a sickness benefit if a customer went to reside in another EEA state.

For the UK to deemed the competent state the customer must fall into one of the following groups:-

Claimants in receipt of of a pension from the UK i.e. State Retirement Pension, Long

Term Incapacity Benefit, A Bereavement Benefit or an Unemployability Supplement.

Those covered by UK contributions in the relevant income tax years (RITY) that would

enable them to claim short term incapacity benefit or healthcare cover from the UK.

Claimants of family members of those in group 2

Certain workers and their family members.

In considering your entitlement to having your Carers Allowance 'exported1 whilst you resided in France we determined that you fell into group 2 listed above i.e that you had RITY cover to enable you to claim Short Term Incapcity Benefit etc.

06/10

Page 1 of 1

Our guidance states that the UK will be the competent state for a sickness benefit where the claimant is insured in the UK for sickness benefits i.e where he/she satisifies the normal Relevant Income Tax Year contribution conditions that would give title to Short Term Incapacity Benefit as at the date the claimant leaves the UK to live in another EEA member state.

Our guidance also states that where the normal RITY conditions are met, the UK will continue to be the competent state until the date from which the claimants national insurance cover ends (the first day on which the claimant would no longer meet the RITY contribution conditions for title to Short Term Incapacity Benefit on a new claim.

To ascertain details of your national insurance contributions we contacted our DWP colleagues in Longbenton, Newcastle Upon Tyne and confirmed that RITY entitlement was determined by applying the qualifiying conditions to the 3 complete tax years prior to the benefit year in which the customer left the UK. That meant that we could only apply contributions paid by yourself or CA national insurance credits awarded to you prior to 1/10/2007( the date you left the UK). We sent off a proforma to our GB colleagues to confirm the contribution cover for yourself and your husband and to confirm any contribution end date. I have attached a copy of this proforma for your perusal.

Our colleagues confirmed that you and your husband had RITY cover for the tax years 2004/2005, 2005/2006, 2006/2007, 2007/2008. Your cover was by means of your Carers Allowance credits and your husband was covered by virtue of his Incapacity Benefit credits. They also confirmed that the RITY cover end date for you and your husband was 2/1/2010.

Unfortunately as your husbands RITY cover also ended on 2/1/2010 you could not be assisted as a family member. Accordingly we then had'to disqualify your entitlement to CA from 4/1/2010. Again as discussed with you I have been advised by my DLA colleagues that your husbands DLA will continue to be 'exported' as he also falls into group 1 in that he receives payment of Long Term Incapacity Benefit which protects this entitlement.

I hope this letter will suffice to explain our decision and as previously advised I have issued appeal forms to yourself if you wish to proceed with your appeal against our decision.

Yours sincerely John Thomson

03/10 Page 2 of 1

Family Member Rity Enquiry

CA Customer

NiNo:

DOB:

Last Worked in

Unknown

UK

Partner

NiNo:

Last Worked in

Unknown

UK

Date moved

06/10/2007

abroad

Customer contributions & cover end

Partner contributions and cover end

date

date

Yearl

04/05 carers

credits 52

Yearl

04/05 Incap credits

Year 2

05/06 as above

Year 2

05/06 as above

Year3

06/07 as above

Year 3

06/07 as above

2007/2008 as

07/08 as above

above

Current Year

Current Year

End Date

02/01/2010

End Date

02/01/2010
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  • 2 months later...

Hi Everyone,

Well we have received a bit of good news today. This letter arrived from the Decision Makers Team in Castle Court Belfast.

Copy of letter below (names and reference numbers deleted):-

--------------------------------------------------

If you get in touch with us tell us this reference number * * * * * * * * *

Mrs Bloggs

SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY

Disability and Carers Service, Castle Court, Royal Avenue, Belfast, BT1 1HR

Our phone number: (028) 9090 6186 Our fax number: (028) 9049 0220 Website: www.nidirect.gov.uk

Case Reference Date

**- ****** 16/11/2010

Dear Mrs Bloggs

I am writing to you with regard to your recent appeal application regarding the decision to disallow you entitlement to Carers Allowance from 4/1/2010.

Upon receipt of your appeal, your case was once again referred to our Decision Making Services team for advice. Having looked again at the details of your case and after considering the guidance and instruction issued by our Great Britain counterparts, Decision Making Services have instructed us that their previous guidance to disallow your claim was in fact incorrect and accordingly they have instructed us to revise our decision to re-instate your entitlement to Carers Allowance.

Accordingly we will shortly re-instate payment to you again and you are due arrears of Carers Allowance from 2/8/2010. Your entitlement to Carers Allowance will continue to be exported provided all other entitlement conditions are satisfied eg DLA continuing to be paid to your husband etc.

I can only apologise to you on behalf of the department for the confusion and de!ay in reaching this decision. Given our revised decision your appeal.request will now lapse but if you require any further information with regard to this matter you can contact me on 02890 490052.

Yours sincerely John Thompson

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It's their error so write a letter, make sure you add a copy to your file, asking for interest and compensation for their maladministration which is clearly is because the second decision  over rode an incorrect first decision.  There is a system in place to do this, they will say no but if you put it into the process, you will get it eventually.  There is an HMG website for this, can't find the link atm, but it's all explained on there.  I know of another person who hit them on this a few years ago (and is battling the same arguments again after the ECJ decision) who was awarded an equivalent amount as the benefit unlawfully witheld in compensation so it may be worth a bit of an administrative struggle.
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