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Disabled and VERY confused indeed!


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First post so PLEASE spare me the time to allow me to air my problem before you ALL jump down on me like a tonne of bricks please?(Poor speller!)

Anyway I am an (OLD) 55 years old Ex. RN CPO. And I am also a War Pensioner for my sins! I am assessed at around 48/49% as far as I can ascertain so am officially 40%. I receive my War Pension and a loss of or lowered standard of occupation benefit. This brings me in around £1000 per month and this is what myself and my wife of 56 years live on Sorry, exist on! Now as far as I am concerned we are also entitled to a benefit which should reduce our taxes as we receive well under the minimum we should as a French Couple.? Yet anyone I ask seems to give a different reply.

I recently had occasion to visit the local Tresorie where there was some consternation as I was showing as owing some €3600+ in taxes to the Government since 2009. (Deliberately NOT paid) I have had one Tax return since I came to France in deember 24th 2007. Thsi was wrong and so a visit to the correct place in Chateau Gontier and a VERY pleasant interview with a well spoken and frindlt person resulted in him saying "You owe NOTHING to the French Government Mr Goddard as you do NOT earn enough" Something I have taken this person at his word (And I also have this in writing) So I have ignored ANY and ALL requisitions for TAX. And have had NO threatening letters but many look sfrom the counter staff and CERTAINLY some RASCIST comments from the Chateaubriand lady!!! I only wish I had a good enough command of the French to answer here back despite knowing 99% of what she said (I was that angry!)

However I digress somewhat, My intention was to ask if ANYONE can point me in the right direction to get this question of WHAT I due to pay and to whom as it is never going to get better? And ultimately worse? I have amongst others tried the SSAFA - NO REPLY. The War Pensioners Welfare service. Certain air of "Couldn't give a toss what your problem is!!! and the British Embassy, that would be the embassy I am still awaiting a return call from some 2/3 years after my last one?

So ANYONE able offer me any help at all please? Just sorry I am NOT in a position I can offer payment for this! But WILL help out if I am able in other ways be assured!

Thank you and sorry for rambling so much! (I blame the Morphine I take regularly!)

Chris Goddard

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We would need things to be a bit clearer to be able to be helpful.

For example I presume that your military pension has already been taxed in the UK

When you speak of £1000 a month is this made up of just your pension or are there other allowances?

Have you any income that might attract French tax?

If all your income is sourced from the UK I calculate that you shouldn't have any tax to pay in France, even under the new system.

On the other hand the usual rule of thumb over here is that you have to pay  a tax bill if possible then claim back...

It is never a good idea to ignore letters from the tax office, but even here I am not clear whether you have had demands that you have ignored or whether you are simply speaking about comments made by counter staff...

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Just to be clear Chris - have you filled in your French tax return every year? You will need to do this even if you have paid tax on your military pension in the UK. This should result in nothing to pay, but still needs to be done. I don't know about disability pension, but once you reach 60 and are below the tax threshold, this should also result in reduction / elimination of your taxe dhabitation.
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Chris, I would get in touch with the Royal British Legion: http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/can-we-help/overseas-support who I'm sure, will be able to provide some assistance through their network within France.

In addition, the following links may be useful:

http://www.rnrmc.org.uk/

http://www.seafarersupport.org/self-help/

http://www.veterans-uk.info/welfaresupportcontact.htm

http://www.forcespensionsociety.org/

Best of luck mate.

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Emily seems to me to have hit the nail on the head here.  You probably don't owe any tax and may indeed be entitled to some social security help (after 5 years of LEGAL residency, you get the same entitlement as a French person in a similar position.)  But to be legal, you must fill in a tax return for the period from the day your residency began because otherwise, how do you suppose the authorities here know how to calculate any entitlements, let alone anything you may or may not owe?

AFAIK, you also need to be assessed as disabled here in order to claim here (there's a thread on this subject elsewhere on this board from a chap trying to claim a taxe d'hab' rebate for a similar reason - I'll try to find it for you.)

In your shoes, I would certainly try all of Salty Sam's ideas, and also your assistante sociale (they usually hold a clinic on a regular basis around all the mairies,  so pop in to your local one to find out when these are held in your commune.)  Whatever you try, put your hands up, show the tax office your letter from the advisor who told you you didn't need to do a tax return, then start again from scratch.  Usually, if you are open and honest then you will get a positive result.  You may also want to take along somebody who does speak French well, just to reinforce your arguments and help you to get what you need.

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The OP states that he is a War Pensioner. A war pension is not taxed in the UK (full title is "war disability pension") and if you read the paperwork for a French tax return, should not be entered on that. he may also have a military pension, which is different and that is taxed in the UK and should be entered on the French tax return.

He will have to pay some property taxes, but at that level of income, no income tax.

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Chris

Your query appears to be what are you liable to pay in tax and to whom, and whether you are entitled to a benefit that will reduce your taxes as your earnings are below the minimum for a couple.

As far as income tax liability is concerned, whilst it must be declared here, your war pension is not taxable in France.  However, even if you had entered it in the wrong place on your French tax declaration resulting in it being assessed as being taxable in France, the amount you receive falls far below the actual tax threshold so your French tax bill would be zero. That is basically what your Chateau Gontier tax man has already confirmed to you.

As far as obtaining exemption from tax d'habitation is concerned, you would need to be in receipt of the allocation aux adultes handicapés. However, your current disability assessment is insufficient to qualify for the allocation.

Finally, it is not clear what the "€3600+ in taxes owing to the Government since 2009" refers to, so it would help if you could clarify this.

 

 

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SD, I have just looked on a 2041-K (from 2008 admittedly), and it says under "Pensions, retraites et pensions", "Sommes a ne pas declarer" - les pensions militaires d'invalidite et le victime de guerre. I have assumed that to mean that War Disability Pensions should not be declared. Am I reading it wrong?

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[quote user="Bob T"]The OP states that he is a War Pensioner. A war pension is not taxed in the UK (full title is "war disability pension") and if you read the paperwork for a French tax return, should not be entered on that. he may also have a military pension, which is different and that is taxed in the UK and should be entered on the French tax return.
[/quote]You may very well be correct - you probably are.  But does that also imply that you don't fill in a tax return in France even if all the boxes will have 0 in them?
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[quote user="Bob T"]The OP states that he is a War Pensioner. A war pension is not taxed in the UK (full title is "war disability pension") and if you read the paperwork for a French tax return, should not be entered on that. he may also have a military pension, which is different and that is taxed in the UK and should be entered on the French tax return. [/quote]I doubt that, Bob, as if he has a WDP then his military pension will more than likely be of the SAP kind, because his injuries will be 'attributable' to his service and the service attributable military pension will be exempt from tax in both the UK and France. 

Is your pension a SAP, Chris?  If so, it is quite clearly detailed in the tax treaty that it is exempt and I can point you to the relevant bits of law if you need it.  You should fill out a tax return though, even though you have been correctly told that you would owe no tax (assuming that is income tax) and have it in writing.  You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

Are you sure the tax bill you mention isn't for tax fonciere (no way of getting out of that as far as I know) and tax d'habitation? 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

Thanks, S/D, that is just as I thought. 

I think that it is, whatever the circumstances, a mistake to ignore letters from officials in France, even if you are sure they are wrong! 

[/quote]Not too clever to ignore letters from HMRC either
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[quote user="Debra"]You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

[/quote]

Sorry debra, thats not quite correct. I am in the same position as the OP with regard to disability and income and I was specifically told that I would not get an automatic reduction in tax d`habitation via the details in my tax return, but have to apply and submit ALL documentary evidence, ie bank statements, disability pension certificates (all translated etc) in order for that to be considered.

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[quote user="Debra"][quote user="Bob T"]The OP states that he is a War Pensioner. A war pension is not taxed in the UK (full title is "war disability pension") and if you read the paperwork for a French tax return, should not be entered on that. he may also have a military pension, which is different and that is taxed in the UK and should be entered on the French tax return. [/quote]I doubt that, Bob, as if he has a WDP then his military pension will more than likely be of the SAP kind, because his injuries will be 'attributable' to his service and the service attributable military pension will be exempt from tax in both the UK and France. 

Is your pension a SAP, Chris?  If so, it is quite clearly detailed in the tax treaty that it is exempt and I can point you to the relevant bits of law if you need it.  You should fill out a tax return though, even though you have been correctly told that you would owe no tax (assuming that is income tax) and have it in writing.  You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

Are you sure the tax bill you mention isn't for tax fonciere (no way of getting out of that as far as I know) and tax d'habitation? 
[/quote]

Exoneration at 75 on low income

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[quote user="stan"][quote user="Debra"]You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

[/quote]

Sorry debra, thats not quite correct. I am in the same position as the OP with regard to disability and income and I was specifically told that I would not get an automatic reduction in tax d`habitation via the details in my tax return, but have to apply and submit ALL documentary evidence, ie bank statements, disability pension certificates (all translated etc) in order for that to be considered.

[/quote]It is correct.  Perhaps that is a special reduction you are applying for due to disability rather than low income? 

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

[quote user="Debra"][quote user="Bob T"]The OP states that he is a War Pensioner. A war pension is not taxed in the UK (full title is "war disability pension") and if you read the paperwork for a French tax return, should not be entered on that. he may also have a military pension, which is different and that is taxed in the UK and should be entered on the French tax return. [/quote]I doubt that, Bob, as if he has a WDP then his military pension will more than likely be of the SAP kind, because his injuries will be 'attributable' to his service and the service attributable military pension will be exempt from tax in both the UK and France. 

Is your pension a SAP, Chris?  If so, it is quite clearly detailed in the tax treaty that it is exempt and I can point you to the relevant bits of law if you need it.  You should fill out a tax return though, even though you have been correctly told that you would owe no tax (assuming that is income tax) and have it in writing.  You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

Are you sure the tax bill you mention isn't for tax fonciere (no way of getting out of that as far as I know) and tax d'habitation? 

[/quote]

Exoneration at 75 on low income

[/quote]Nice of 'em!

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[quote user="Debra"][quote user="stan"][quote user="Debra"]You won't be liable to income tax but that is the only way you will get a reduction in tax d'habitation due to low income - its done automatically via the details from your tax return.

[/quote]

Sorry debra, thats not quite correct. I am in the same position as the OP with regard to disability and income and I was specifically told that I would not get an automatic reduction in tax d`habitation via the details in my tax return, but have to apply and submit ALL documentary evidence, ie bank statements, disability pension certificates (all translated etc) in order for that to be considered.

[/quote]It is correct.  Perhaps that is a special reduction you are applying for due to disability rather than low income? 

[/quote]I should have said it is correct if it is your maison principale and you have a low income on your tax return.  I'm not sure that the OP's income is 'low' though.

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Stan - note this bit and that you come under the 'above groups' which is why you will need to provide proof:

[quote]

If you do not fall into one of the above groups but your income is no

higher than certain thresholds (which depend on family composition) then

you receive a reduction in the amount of tax that you need to pay.

The formula for calculating the reduction is complex but to

benefit in 2011 your income for 2010 cannot exceed €23,572 per year for a

single person and €34,586 for a couple, with further increases for

children

Broadly speaking, the tax authority will take your net income (revenu fiscal de référence) and then reduce this sum by an amount per 'household part', and the level of your taxe d'habitation is capped at 3.44% of this final reference figure.

Example: A couple with a net income of €15,000 and a local tax

liability before reduction of €500. Their net income figure receives an

abatement of €8,069 (for a couple), giving a figure of €6,931 as the

basis for determining the tax payable. The tax payable would then be

€6,931 x 3.44% = €238, giving a reduction of €262.

Normally, the above reductions and exemptions are

granted automatically by the tax authority on the basis of

information obtained from you annual income tax return. So you do not

need to apply to receive entitlement.

Those in receipt of Revenu de Solidarité Active (RSA) also normally receive complete exoneration from the both the taxe d'habitation and la redevance audiovisuelle.

Separately from the general rebates, local authorities also have

discretion to grant a rebate up to 15% to those on modest incomes,

provided the applicant meets the income limits above, and that the

rateable value of their home is not greater than 130% of the average for

the area.

[/quote]

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stan has previously posted about his situation on an extensive thread where it was clear that he wishes to claim exoneration on the grounds of disability, but that the way of proving that was not automatic

Exoneration from taxe d'habitation is automatic if your fulfill the conditions.

It is so automatic that a number of British people with low or nil income from France, but a reasonable UK sourced income used to find themselves not having to pay taxe d'habitation, because a glitch in the old way of filling in the déclaration on-line meant that it looked as if their revenu fiscal de référence was under the limit (the UK income hadn't been included)

Many of those have found themselves paying taxe d'habitation this year.

For the  taxe foncière    on your main house you can claim a reduction in certain circumstances, for example handicap

Les titulaires de l'allocation supplémentaire versée par

le Fonds spécial vieillesse ou invalidité sont exonérés de la taxe

foncière pour leur habitation principale. Ils doivent y habiter : soit

seul ou avec leur conjoint, soit avec des personnes fiscalement à leur

charge, soit avec d'autres personnes titulaires de la même allocation.

After 75 handicapped people getting an 'allocation aux adultes handicapés' can be exonerated

Les

personnes âgées de plus de 75 ans (au 1er janvier de l'année

considérée) et les titulaires de l'allocation aux adultes handicapés

peuvent être exonérés de taxe foncière pour leur habitation principale

sous certaines conditions.

Les intéressés doivent respecter les conditions d'habitation ci-dessus et les plafonds de revenus exigés en matière de taxe foncière

Over 65 it might be possible to claim a 100€ reduction, depending on income as shown in the link above

Les personnes âgées de plus de 65 ans mais de

moins de 75 (au 1er janvier de l'année considérée) qui satisfont aux

conditions d'habitation et de ressources définies ci-dessus bénéficient

d'un dégrèvement forfaitaire de 100 euros sur le montant de la taxe

foncière.

http://droit-finances.commentcamarche.net/contents/immobilier-impots/f220-taxe-fonciere-les-exonerations.php3

I repeat my usual plea to go to French sources rather than amateur British journalistic sources, especially those financed by magazines who wish to sell you something

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OK - I didn't read the previous extensive postings by Stan but I guessed that, which was why I said he was probably one of the 'above cases' - I got the link via the most recent post on the subject on this forum ('another' posted it) and I did have a quick read through and thought it was accurate.

The thing is with the OP, if his income is exempt then his RFR would not include his €1000 per month income and so would be very low and he would have got the reductions anyway because of low income, wouldn't he Norman?  It may not be necessary to go via the disabled route for that - though there are probably other reasons to do so (like the tax fonciere, which I didn't know about).

I'm not an expert - I was just trying to help.  Hopefully I added something to the discussion.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Sorry debra I came over as pompous and rude

You were very helpful[:)]

I suspect the OP is talking about income tax, but as you said we can't be sure

[/quote]Its ok - I'm not in a vulnerable moment so I didn't go hide and cry or anything (this time!)

If its income tax then this is what is relevant (from the HRMC website, no journalists involved!):

Article 19 Paragraph 4 of the tax convention ( http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/in-force/france.pdf ) says:

[quote]

4. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Convention:

(a) the pensions referred to in paragraph (4) of Article 81 of the French tax code (code général des impôts) shall be exempt from United Kingdom tax, regardless of the nationality of the pensioner, so long as they are exempt from French tax;

(b) the pensions referred to in section 641(1)(a) to (g) of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 and benefits paid by reason of illness or injury following the termination of service in the armed forces or reserve forces referred to in section 641(1)(h) of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 and injury and disablement pensions payable under any scheme made under the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act 1939 shall be exempt from French tax, regardless of the nationality of the pensioner, so long as they are exempt from United Kingdom tax. However, paragraph 2 shall apply to such part of any income from those pensions as is not exempted from United Kingdom tax.[/quote]

and section 641 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/1/section/641 ) specifies:

[quote]

641 Wounds and disability pensions

(1)No liability to income tax arises on—

(a)a wounds pension granted to a member of the armed forces of the Crown;

(b)retired pay of a disabled officer granted on account of medical unfitness attributable to or aggravated by service in the armed forces of the Crown;

(c)a disablement or disability pension granted to a member of the armed forces of the Crown, other than a commissioned officer, on account of medical unfitness attributable to or aggravated by service in the armed forces of the Crown;

(d)a disablement pension granted to a person who has been employed in the nursing services of any of the armed forces of the Crown on account of medical unfitness attributable to or aggravated by service in the armed forces of the Crown;

(e)an injury or disablement pension payable under any scheme made under—

   (i)the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act 1914 (c. 30), or

   (ii)the Injuries in War (Compensation) Act 1914 (Session 2) (5 & 6 Geo. 5 c. 18);

(f)an injury or disablement pension payable under any War Risks Compensation Scheme for the Mercantile marine;

(g)a pension—

   (i)granted to a person on account of disablement, and

   (ii)payable under any scheme made under section 3, 4 or 5 of the Pensions (Navy, Army, Air Force and Mercantile Marine) Act 1939 (c. 83).

(2) But if the Secretary of State certifies that a pension or retired pay of a kind listed in subsection (1) is only partly attributable to disablement or disability, that subsection applies only to the part attributable to disablement or disability.

[/quote]

(h) of 641 hasn't been updated on that site yet but can be found here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/7/section/19#section-19-6  :

[quote] (6)In section 641 (exemption from income tax for armed forces disability pensions etc), after paragraph (g) of subsection (1) insert

—“(h)a benefit under a scheme established by an order under section 1(2) of the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Act 2004 payable to a person by reason of his illness or injury—

   (i)by way of a lump sum, or

   (ii)following the termination of the person's service in the armed forces or reserve forces.”.[/quote]

Note that there is also an update saying that 641 paragraph (e) has been repealed, in case that is relevant.

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