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A cautionary tale


Experosborn
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Brumble

We live in the Charente (16) and the boys are both making reasonable progress now, particularly the youngest. Any problems we have with the oldest are more to do with his age, almost 13, than the education system.

We have noticed no problems between the English and French kids, although that could be because we have done our best to integrate,  eg attending school functions, etc., ans also because we all speak the language reasonably well now.

AnnHopkins

The differences between the French and English education systems are huge. 

Children take controles (tests) on a regular, sometimes weekly basis, and are expected to achieve good results. We have found that there has been no allowance for our children because they are English, no extra tuition, etc.

Bright children can certainly flourish in the French system, but they must be prepared to work hard, have long days and plenty of homework.

One of the things that the French concentrate on significantly is grammar, it far exceeds what is required in the UK. Being able to understand and speak French is not really enough. The children need to understand all the aspects of grammar and conjugation. This is taught right very early on in the primary schools and continues through secondary education. This area has been one of the hardest for our eldest to cope with because he only had one year in primary education here.

Whilst this may appear to be a cautionary tale, do not let me put you off, only you know the capabilities your children.

Good Luck

 

Jongleur

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One of the major differeces between our two school systems is that in Britain the philosphy of education is very much "show me what you know" whereas here in France the opposite is true. Tests, exams and indeed the whole ethos is "lets see what you don't know."

G.C.S.E and A-level exams compartmentalise different subjects, so a poor performance in one area has no effect on the possibility of obtaining a good result in another.

For both the Brevet and the Bac, the French approach is an all or nothing affair, and herein lies the problem. Your little darlings are expected to be fairly good at everything across the board. And for many pupils, especially at the lycée, this is simply asking too much. Could this be why France has one of the highest teenage suicide rates in Europe?

There are around 200,000 "weakest links" every year who leave French state schooling with nothing. For these youngsters, their various talents go unrewarded and doors to further education are firmly closed.

I've worked as a Modern Languages teacher in all types of school out here and in secondary schools in the UK. In my view, the French primary sector in rural areas offers an excellent foundation to its pupils - it teaches them how to learn and inspires their thirst for knowledge. Small class sizes out here show that size does matter! Pupils get so much more individual attention.

Reverse all of the above when thinking of collège and lycée. 34 kids in a language classroom and its no wonder standards are slipping. Reforms are abound, but for those who move out here with teenagers, I can only say that your courage astounds me. Above average pupils will flourish, strugglers will continue to do just that.

Worth noting that after the age of 11, cerebral receptors involved in language acquisition actually shut down, which makes learning a foreign language more difficult but not impossible.

Hope this helps

Quantum

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[quote]One of the major differeces between our two school systems is that in Britain the philosphy of education is very much "show me what you know" whereas here in France the opposite is true. Tests, exams ...[/quote]

Quantum,

I would certainly second your posting, it is an excellent, educated posting that anyone thinking of coming to France with children, especially teenage kids should read carefully and take on board all that is written. Some of us have often stated posts along these lines in the past but it is good to read an opinion from someone actually in the "thick" of it, so to speak. 

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This is probably a silly and obvious question , but I`ll ask anyway!!Perhaps Quantum could help. We lived in France several years ago , for 17 months,when my daughter was very small she was 2.5 years old when we left. As she was in a creche full time she was speaking mostly french by the time we left.

We are planning moving to france, she will be 11 when we go.

Do you think the fact that she was already exposed to the language will help learn French at school, or was she too young and maybe too long ago? She still has French lessons weekly with La Jolie Ronde but is now getting French at primary school but it is a very basic level.

I have concerns about us returning to France and how she will cope going straight into college.

Joan

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Thanks to Quantum from me too.When I started this thread I didn't intend to worry people, especially those who are on their way here  in the near future. But your post explains the problems with the system very clearly.

It's worth bearing in mind though that even very bright children cannot always cope. As I explained at the start, my 15 year old daughter is now studying for GCSEs at home She is missing people of her own age terribly. but she could not put up any longer with the rigid style of teaching, bare classrooms, lack of any sense of enjoyment in learning,and teachers who showed no interest in the students as people. She's now thinking of returning to the UK next year to study for 'A' levels-certainly not what we envisaged when we moved here 2  and a half years ago.

My younger daughter(13 now) has had that extra two years, and is fairly settled.

Please think very carefully about your teenagers' happiness before placing them in this system.

Jo

 

 

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Thank you for your kind comments about my posting - I normally manage to upset people (perhaps they are not willing to accept a few home truths).

Fin, bon...

To reply to Joan, already your daughter has had more exposure to French than most of her age that I come across. You have done all that you can to ensure that she keeps her French skills up to date, so she has an invaluable foundation which will set her in good stead.

However, most problems for English speaking children are with their written French. Your daughter should come out of education speaking like a native, but perhaps it might be an idea to keep her back in CM1 or CM2 (final years of primary school) just to get her up to speed with the grammatical concepts which will play such a great part in her collège education and beyond.

If not there are some great "homework" books available, answers supplied at the back. If you get the CM1 or CM2 version, this would be very useful.

Amicalement

Quantum
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Thanks for your reply Quantum. I have several of these homework / revision books which are very helpful. I usually try to stock up every time we visit France.We are trying to work through them, she is managing with the maths etc, but struggling with the French ones, they are quite dry. I am going over again in a few weeks and hoping to pick up some CD rom`s which might make it a bit more interesting for her.She has actually started taking an interest in learning recently. Up till now she was dead against the idea of going, but seems to be coming round to the idea after seeing friends house with pool(she wants one too).

I am reluctant to put her into primary (CM2) as she will be going back two years. Her birthday is in late December ,she will be 12 in the Dec , we will be going over in the summer when she is eleven going on 12. I realise it will be a huge upheaval going straight into college and perhaps will consider CM2.Haven`t decided yet.

Joan
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Joan, I just wanted to agree with Qunatum that a year in primary is probably a good idea for your daughter. French primary schools are smaller than collèges and even if your daughter's school doesn't provide FLE help, they will have more possiblitly of helping her adapt to a new country and a new school system.

Starting collège is difficult even for French children. The structures are bigger. They have a different teacher for every subjetc, loads of homework, the cantine, "les grands"  and, although I hate having to say it, secondary teachers are less likely to give time and patience to "needy" children. (When the prof principal only sees them 1.5 hours a week during lesson times, it's not so easy to build up a relationship)

About CD roms: My son (in CM2) like ADI, it's a bit scolaire. But it gives a good grounding in French and maths

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[quote]I thought it might be useful for anyone thinking of moving to France with teenagers to hear about what has happened in our family recently. We moved just over 2 years ago with two daughters of 11 and ...[/quote]

Sorry your kids didn't adjust I suppose France doesn't suit everyone.

We moved over with both our kids (11 & 12) at the time and although they were thrown in the deep end as it where, they have both thrived here especially at school.

I'm not saying that the education system is fabulous here but they still adhere to the old principles of right & wrong and in having respect for other people. These are important things which we feel is now dying out in British schools. 

Also living in France allows the kids to grow up at a slower pace and keeps peer pressure down to a minimum.

Obviously this is just our experience and not everyone will agree but you do have to sit down sometimes and think what do you really want for your kids? Do you want a watered down school system where teachers can't say boo to little johnny?  where you have A+++++ for results? serious peer pressure? Designer gear above respect? or a system where they can learn, teachers have control, a system of making sure they have some education and above all they grow into adults at a reasonable rate!

I know which I prefer..................

 

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Obviously this is just our experience and not everyone will agree but you do have to sit down sometimes and think what do you really want for your kids? Do you want a watered down school system where teachers can't say boo to little johnny?  where you have A+++++ for results? serious peer pressure? Designer gear above respect? or a system where they can learn, teachers have control, a system of making sure they have some education and above all they grow into adults at a reasonable rate!

I know which I prefer..................

I am sorry but that reasoning is only the tip of the iceberg.

Sure we all want good education for our kids in France but as a few of us have said before, one has to look further than their schooling. If parents really are that worried about what happens to their kids, they must look beyond the college, the Lycée then possible Uni years and wonder what job prospects their children will face, or perhaps that is too long in the future, if so, then I am sorry but looking just at school years is too short term to be of any consequence in the reality of wanting to be always living in France

If you come here as a family with long term hopes, then you surely must look beyond those school years. If your kid was leaving Superior education in France now, the minimum requirements to even find a fairly simple job could be a Bac plus 2. That in itself is not easy, dedication over two years plus earning the Bac at Lycée in the first place, is required by a student to obtain that pass and do not make the mistake in thinking little Johnny will get a job because he is billingual, (I would a few bob for every time I have heard that one) so are thousands of French and they will get priority over anyone else.

 

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Yes indeed one does have to look beyond school. But at the end of the day does anyone genuinely belive there will be more job prospects in Britain? I don't and as I said earlier it is only our experience and opinion.

I personaly do not think that our kids will get work just by being multi-lingual but by the same token it wont be a bad thing either as when they finish their education they will have German and Spanish as well (probably not able to speak English though:whistling.

Our kids have already done their weeks stage and have been offered jobs for when (and if) they leave school. Our son has been offered training as a chef and our daughter as a Vet (although she wants to travel after Uni.)

I still belive that the kids our better of here than in Britain, but there you go.

 

 

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 Yes indeed one does have to look beyond school. But at the end of the day does anyone genuinely belive there will be more job prospects in Britain? I don't and as I said earlier it is only our experience and opinion.

But you don't have any experience of after Lycée/Uni life here and work, so I am sorry but I don't think you have any idea what it is like here workwise for kids, especially the British kids that leave school, only hopes and hearsay perhaps?

As for, "does anyone genuinely believe there will be more job prospects in Britain", as it stands now it is a fact that there is a far better chance of finding work in the UK, than there is here and it has been like that for all the years we have been here and, if all things remain equal, will certainly remain so. I notice you are looking for work now, (and genuinely good luck) it will not be easy, even finding a job that pays the SMIC is hard enough to find. Around here work for the Brits (and many of the French) consists of temporary seasonal work or chicken farms, not too much of a choice then is it?

I personally do not think that our kids will get work just by being multi-lingual but by the same token it wont be a bad thing either as when they finish their education they will have German and Spanish as well (probably not able to speak English though) .

Don't joke but we know of many British kids, whose written English is nothing short of absymal, especially those that arrive here at an early age. It is often written phonetically.

Our kids have already done their weeks stage and have been offered jobs for when (and if) they leave school. Our son has been offered training as a chef and our daughter as a Vet (although she wants to travel after Uni.)

A stage is one thing, getting work is another, there is a long time between going to Lycée to learn to be a chef and actually being offered work. All our kids did stage, just as everyone's kids have to do, which is just another thing the education insist on, what it means in actual life, I have never totally understood.

Please don't misunderstand this, I cannot fathom what you have said, you say your daughter has been offered training to be a vet but it sounds like she still has to get through Lycée, she then will have, I believe, around 5-7 years of Uni life etc to train as a vet, so tell me, how can she have been offered this opportunity at this stage of her life?

Sure come to France, for whatever reason but, one has to understand the realities that is France.

 

 

 

 

 

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I do understand a lot of what you say Miki, (I also cannot understand why my daughter was offered anything either!) and after working for the French for nigh on 2 years I do agree its damned hard not only to get work but also to try and mix in their regime.

I myself hope to get on formation for 6 months to aquire the papers for the job (painting) I spent 4 years as an apprentice in Britain and nigh on 30 years working at because its the best way for me to progress here. We are not too badly off because my wife also works for the French.

As I stress again, for us, as a family, it really was and is still the best thing we have ever done moving to France no matter how hard it can be. But that is not for everyone. Our situation was quite unique and I do think that if you are really worried about education, kids getting work afterwards and feel France cannot provide this for them, well then you should possibly stick with what you know and feel safer with ie: stay in the UK (at least until they are up and away:hehe

BUT if you are like me and want them to have a few moral values then I do feel France has something to offer.

Finally I think a lot of Brits need to also know the hours the kids work. Our 2 kids start at about 8:15 am and don't finish until 5pm; and by the time they get home it would be about 5:45pm and then they have homework............ so its a pretty tough schedule.

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Neutralzone said "BUT if you are like me and want them to have a few moral values then I do feel France has something to offer."

Can you explain what you mean, neutralzone?  Yes, there is a surface politeness in France that can be very pleasing, and French people do eat more lettuce than Brits, but underneath that, do you really find them more moral?

I think they're just as sinful as the rest of us.  

 

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I think a lot of Brits need to also know the hours the kids work. Our 2 kids start at about 8:15 am and don't finish until 5pm; and by the time they get home it would be about 5:45pm and then they have homework............ so its a pretty tough schedule

Tough schedule............... those are easy-peasy hours NZ, try our daughters hours for size (but don't let your kids see them).

Leave for school bus at around 07h05 and get home around 18h55 3 days a week and at 17h55 the other 2 days. That is "superieur education" for you, no slouching once you leave Lycée, college hours are for wimps

As SB said, please do not think that morals here, are what one thinks they see around you. The French have pretty poor morals in many issues.  Seperate issue perhaps but what has made my blood boil again lately is this "raping by gangs" in the inner cities and the French police appearing to lose control over it all.  One young lady (once a victim, many times over) died recently of cancer, she has a book out in which she speaks of her despair..................Morals, they come in all shapes, a kiss on both cheeks in the streets can disguise many things......visual etiquette is one thing, moral dilemmas are another. 

Yes bad things happen in the UK but please do not think your children are away from danger here, morally or otherwise.  Drugs, in even the most tiny commune are available. Sure you may quote that you would rather take your chances here but be seriously aware, one must still be on guard as much in France as in the UK.

 

 

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I maybe phrased that wrong.......... what I meant to say that I prefered the way that the school system worked (at least in our area) where they take no nonsense from the kids and do instill *some* values like respect etc. It is difficult to put into words without going into a lengthy story telling mode! 

Never meant to say the French are a wonderful moralist race 'cos I KNOW they will stich you up whilst plying you with Ricard

 

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Yup Miki you are right about the drugs etc. It is even encroaching around some of the very small villages where we are. But this is something that every parent should be aware of no matter where you live. We just find it's better living here than getting blown up all the time!
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Blimey NZ, how many times has that happened to you then? Once would be enough for me

Well...................... it was only once but I lost me 2 shops & me sanity so I'm counting it as 2!

Thing was Kids were with me in when it went off but lucky enough they didn't get hurt. So after a lot of reflection we decided anything must be better than that and headed off to France

 

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Thing was Kids were with me in when it went off but lucky enough they didn't get hurt. So after a lot of reflection we decided anything must be better than that and headed off to France.

Well got to say it, that's a  pretty sensible reason for emigrating, so good luck.

I guess it is nothing like the amount you were facing in Ulster but we had a bomb explode a few years in McDonalds at Dinan, that unfortunately killed a young girl, in front of her sister as well. . It is bad enough when anyone is killed in the "world of terrorism" but when it is children and young persons then..............Dirty rotten B******s.

 

 

 

 

 

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Funny you mention the Bretons. Visited a few pubs up around Dinan when I was working up around there and got talking to a lot of the younger ones (girls as well as boys). I asked what their feelings were on seperatisation and none of them liked the idea. They were happy to be part of France............ BUT they did have a problem with british buying properties. I asked why and they explained that it pushed house prices up and that they couldn't afford to buy themselves.

I did try to say that a lot of British (amongst other nationalities) buy properties that need restoration and which quite frankly the french don't want and perhaps that was a good thing. Of course it fell on deaf ears......

 Also I feel their attitude to us has cooled a bit more due to the Gulf war.

Any other opinions/experiences?

Is it totaly off topic

 

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