What's so good about the bac?

[SaligoBay]

Genuine question, I promise.   There's often talk of introducing the bac to the UK, but why?  

 

[Izz.]

It means that A levels students would have to study and take all the subjects under the sun, like they do in France.

[Teamedup]

It would only be in 6 subjects if introduced to the UK as far as I can ever remember hearing mentioned. Why? Got me there, I really haven't got a clue. Is it necessary? doubtful.

[Clarkkent]

Its protagonists believe that it will reduce the narrow scope of A-levels. For example, students who study arts subjects should still study science and mathematics (and vice versa). It will result in people who are "more rounded" than at present. Students enter universities too focussed.

[Pangur]

Coming from a bac style educational background (Ireland) I think the UK desperately needs a similar system.  At the moment, England and Wales chuck out about 40% of students after GCSE, meaning the UK is ranked 22^nd out of 30 OECD countries when it comes to the proportion of adults having completed upper secondary education.    Having worked in employment research, I know that UK employers are extremely concerned about the lack of basic literacy and numeracy skills those leaving after GCSE have.   

 

I don’t know a huge amount about the French system, but in Ireland we must take 7 subjects for the Leaving Certificate, all of which can be taken at higher or ordinary level, depending on what you want to do after school.  This means that upper secondary education is not restricted to those who want to go to university.  English Maths and Irish are compulsory, with most students also doing a modern language.  You can then choose to specialize in science, arts, commerce or mix them up, giving you a decent broad education, which is surely the purpose of secondary school. 

 

Personally, I think it is crazy to encourage only those who want to go to university to stay on in school, and then allow them only study the subjects they like and are good at!  I’ve worked with extremely intelligent English people who have very poor maths skills if they’ve gone the arts route or who have never read a book as the last one they were read was for GCSE and they were allowed just do science for A level.  A bac type exam gives all student a much broader range of knowledge.  They’re trying with the AS levels but have just succeeded in overloading the students.

 

Ah, but what about university, doesn’t an A level mean you do better in your chosen field?  Not necessarily in my experience.  In the university I studied in, there were many English and NI students, all of whom had spent the last two years studying 2 or 3 of their favourite subjects while we had done 7 and sometimes 8.  OK, at the start, their breadth of knowledge in the university subject was a bit wider, but certainly by the end of 4 years there was no difference between A level and Leaving Cert students in terms of

[Russethouse]

I think the present system in the Uk has been tinkered with so much that it has lost a lot of credibility, the bac has remained stable AFAIK.

[Teamedup]

The bac alone in France has little value, in spite of it being in around 12 subjects. And in itself is not sufficient for some university courses either, where further studies have to be done before a university course is started eg, to be a vet, rather than to be a medical doctor.

[SaligoBay]

Thank you for your input, everyone.   But I'm still missing something.   The idea of well-rounded individuals who specialise in the area of their choice/expertise when the time is right for them is a lovely one, but, well, that's just not France!

OTOH, it's maybe not the fault of the bac itself, it is after all only part of the whole system. 

How do you see it changing the employment opportunities of UK school-leavers?   I think it must be very difficult for employers to be faced with a load of people with just "a bac".   At least if they have separate exams, you can see where someone's strong points are.   

As I've never been through the English education system (hey, does it show!), I can't really comment on what it's like, especially now, but I certainly have the impression that at least UK graduates (and perhaps more importantly, non-graduates) have a better chance of making a decent living for themselves.   Is that not the most important thing?       

 

[Pangur]

T, What do you mean by 'value'? 

It's valuable (essential?) as entry into university.  It is valuable in that it is evidence that you have been educated to a particular standard in a wide range of specific subjects.  Of course it doesn't train you for a specific job and further training/study will be required, but that is the same in most countries.  For instance, A levels are only valuable in the same way - perhaps less so as you've followed a much narrower path.  What is less valuable about the bac compared with other final exam systems?

And, as more and more people do something like the bac or A levels, the entry level for jobs has to be raised that bit higher.  In Ireland a good Leaving Cert mean a good job.  Now most jobs want students with a bit more, that's just educational evolution. 

S, can employers not get a breakdown of what grades are achieved in which subjects?  The educational system and the chances of employment are not correlated - the fact that there is higher unemployment in France is not due to the educational system.

 

 

 

[Teamedup]

Yes, but the bac is all or nothing in France. I don't know what it is like in Eire.

I rather like the idea of each exam having a real value put on it at that level. Is there any reason why someone's work should not be valued when well done. After all they fail or get bad grades for all the world to see if the work isn't up to scratch.

[Pangur]

There is a minimum pass level for the Leaving Cert in the republic of Ireland (Eire is a term that jars terribly with Irish people for lots of different reasons  )    I think you need to pass a certain number of subjects, but generally on CVs etc you'd put down Pass maths C1 etc, so employers can differentiate between different strenghts and weaknesses.

No educational system is perfect, and each is designed for its own market but in my opinion, a system where a range of subjects is taught gives a better all round education than one where a large proportion are excluded from  upper secondary education and those included are only educated in their few favourite subjects.

 

[Robbie34]

The International Baccalaureate is now being offered in many UK schools and is accepted for university entrance.

You may find their website useful.

http://www.ibo.org/ibo/index.cfm

[Mistral]

In France there are loads of different bacs. If you take the bac S for example, you will have done 5 hours of maths a week for the last two years and 3 hours of philo in terminal. A bac L has 2 hours of maths in 1ere, none in term and 8 hours of philo in term. Each subject has a different weighting so maths will count for 7 for bac S and for 2 in bac L. Obviously, the exam subjects are differnet for each bac (except possibly philo - I can't remember)

Employers will look at which bac a student took, not just if they have a bac. But any bac is acceptable to go to uni (so technically, you can register for a maths degree with a bac L)

The strong points of the bac are that pupils get more subjects for longer (more well rounded maybe) although you could question how well rounded you become if maths and science are limited to 2 hours a week. What I find a pity is that pupils have to decide at 15 whether they are "literaire" or "scientifique" and can't combine. I mean I took A levels in french, german and Biology but in france I would have been forced to decide if I wanted to take the language route or the science route.

I think the most important thing about the bac, is that it's centuries old and considered to be na inetegral part of French education

 

[SaligoBay]

Thank you, Mistral, a knowledgeable and level-headed reply  -  as always! 

So....... a wider range of subjects, but not all studied to the same level.  Some will be at a higher level than A-level, some at a lower level, depending on which bac you do.

And you have to choose your "path" (lit/sci) at 15, and tant pis if you realise at 16 that you've made a mistake?

Ah well.   It still doesn't sound better to me, it just sounds different!    Have to admit tho, the name "baccalaureat" itself does have an impressive ring to it.   It does make you think of noble students aiming for high intellectual goals, not the smoking, snogging lot you see in "Ma Terminale"!!   

 

[Iceni]

SB - I suspect that the desire for change in UK is simply a desire for change and we all know how much governments love to interfere. Many cynics view the present A level achievement rates as fishy - if so many people "pass" so many subjects at such a high level then it MUST be too easy.

It's a bit like Windscale - bad press so change the name. But when the same lunatics will be in charge of the asylum how would it get better ?

John

not

 

 

[Sassy]

This is all fascinating dialogue about examinations, and a serious fact then is don't play trivial pursuit with an irish person with a school cert! I hate this concept of failure regarding examinations, how totally primieval. We all accept examinations are useful in guiding the child into a structured part of learning, but it is so so only the beginning. As very few individuals remain stationary in their occupations further learning throughout life relating to the changes is fundemental, so education is formated to your development, desire and expectation. School is not just about exams, its about the development of the person, building their confidence...and ha ha the happiest times of your life. Not the way some seem to be coming across! Not all children will do GCSE or A levels lets face it, what of those in Ireland or France? I suggested a "maison familialle" to my daughter, and I thought she was going to cry.....they clearly do not have the same reputation as a further education college in the uk which is non discriminatory between the smarts and the strugglers.

Whether it be bac or A levels, the child that has a desire to follow a certain direction will be aimed at that towards the end of their learning. All the lycees around here seem to have a specialty, and be the desire to study at university in France or the UK, surely it would be far less complicated to phone the desired university and ask if they have a problem with entry with either format?

[Pangur]

School  should definitely not be just about exams - education is valuable and despite the current trends, should not just be about securing employment.  I'm not sure if people realise how out of step the UK is with most of the rest of Europe in terms of keeping children on in basic education.  The figures below are taken from the UK national statistics office and refer to full time education figures (which in the UK includes FE).  Using GCSE as the basic school certificate does mean that non academic kids essentially have to leave school earlier than their European counterparts. 

                              % 16yrs     %  17years
Greece                     90            67
France                     95            90
Netherlands              97            89
Belgium                    94             94
Spain                       88              79
 Germany                  96               92
Finland                     89                  93
United Kingdom          81                 68
Irish Republic            92                 82
Sweden                  98                  97
 Denmark               93                   82
Portugal               84                    84
Italy                   78                   73
Austria                  88                 86

 

 

[SaligoBay]

What about the percentage who get jobs after leaving school in each country for each age group?

Isn't there a law about under-18s working in France?   That might explain why they stay in school for longer?

 

[Teamedup]

Panqur, that would be all very well to compare, but some kids at that age of 17 haven't even finished their first FOUR years of secondary education in France.

Statistics as always are all very well, but are only part of the the picture.

Also full time education isn't always the path some kids want to take. I have friends in the UK, who's kids went into modern apprenticeships and have become highly qualified using day release. There are many options in the UK and people use the education system, because there is an absolutely fantastic adult education system in the UK, with day school and night school available to anyone at all. I don't know how much is available in other countries, but there is nothing like it in France. Changing options later is very very hard.

 

[Pangur]

Saligo, I don't believe comparing employment rates has much to do with educational systems.  The high rate of unemployment in France does not correlate directly with the French educational system. UK kids get jobs because there are jobs, not because they have been educated to a higher standard.  Education is not just about employment, and training for a job. 

What the stats illustrate is merely that the UK is out of step with the rest of Europe, whether it is due to obligatory leaving ages or not (and certainly those in the high 90s are as a result of compulsory education).  They include children in fulltime and partime education and government supported training,.  They patently show that other european countries manage to keep their kids in school longer, which personally I feel is beneficial and raises the educational level of all and not a select few. 

I'm know the UK educational system has a lot to offer, particularly for clever children - but my experience in the UK is that it is far from ideal, and leaves kids badly educated, especially when they leave at 16.  I would not let a child of mine go through that system.  I do have  experience in this field working with employers and they repeatedly told me that their employees leaving school at 16, expect a well paid and interesting job but generally have poor literacy and numeracy skills and a very poor work ethic.  I have personally interviewed those leaving college/FE in the UK and been stunned by their attitude and lack of general knowledge and all-round education.  Because unemployment is low, they get jobs: it doesn't mean that the system has educated them. That is why many people support a bac style exam, which gives a better educational spread.  I know the French style is far from ideal, but I think British people, (like everyone else!) tend to be blinkered about their 'gold standard' A levels etc - good to share and compare, eh?

[Pangur]

Saligo, I don't believe comparing employment rates has much to do with educational systems.  The high rate of unemployment in France does not correlate directly with the French educational system. UK kids get jobs because there are jobs, not because they have been educated to a higher standard.  Education is not just about employment, and training for a job. 

What the stats illustrate is merely that the UK is out of step with the rest of Europe, whether it is due to obligatory leaving ages or not (and certainly those in the high 90s are as a result of compulsory education).  They include children in fulltime and part-time education and government supported training,.  They patently show that other european countries manage to keep their kids in school longer, which personally I feel is beneficial and raises the educational level of all and not a select few. 

I'm know the UK educational system has a lot to offer, particularly for clever children - but my experience in the UK is that it is far from ideal, and leaves kids badly educated, especially when they leave at 16.  I would not let a child of mine go through that system.  I do have  experience in this field working with employers and they repeatedly told me that their employees leaving school at 16, expect a well paid and interesting job but generally have poor literacy and numeracy skills and a very poor work ethic.  I have personally interviewed those leaving college/FE in the UK and been stunned by their attitude and lack of general knowledge and all-round education.  Because unemployment is low, they get jobs: it doesn't mean that the system has educated them. That is why many people support a bac style exam, which gives a better educational spread.  I know the French style is far from ideal, but I think British people, (like everyone else!) tend to be blinkered about their 'gold standard' A levels etc - good to share and compare, eh?

[SaligoBay]

<<Education is not just about employment, and training for a job.<<

But now you're philosophising, Pangur!   Education for education's sake is a luxury, and can only be seriously indulged in if you have enough time and money.  French youngsters don't do all that study because they have an intellectual hunger, they do it to try to get a job!

And before you try to tell me I idealise the A-level system, let me tell you that I have no A-levels (apart from Geology, which I did as an adult at evening classes), so no axe to grind there.  

Any system of exams will have to be at the right academic level to produce a suitable number of passes.   Too hard, more people will leave school before doing it, too easy and it's not worth having, whether it's a bac or A-levels.

French people end up just like the rest of us - some are very clever, most are average, and some are as thick as mince.   There's nothing magic going on! 

    

[Sassy]

I agree that a sixteen year old leaving school may have illusions of grandeur, limited education, and poor work ethos...but I don't see how the education system can be entirely held at fault for this, and I do not see if a child is reluctant to progress how a bac will make a difference to their learning.

 A child is learning by example, and at sixteen surely the parents are still a guiding force as to the path the child takes, we are surely more a commodity than a bank account, a taxi, a cook and alarm clock?  If I have been unhappy about an element of education, it being either the childs fault or the institutions, then if possible one tries to find an alternative or a solution.  The education system at primaire level in france has been supurb, teaching the children self control, focus, and an attention to detail.  The primary in the uk was chaotic and unfocused. Now I feel they have the necessary skills to do very well in secondary education in the uk which I feel offers a wonderful opportunity for learning...if the child is encouraged and motivated....and if of course you can get the school you want!!

[Teamedup]

Panqur,

Keep the kids at school, you betchya they do. Kids can leave at 16 of course, but if they are only in their second year of secondary education when they do this? I know too many kids who have resat two or three years here. Parents usually feel the obligation for their kids to finish at least those first four years of secondary education. Commendable? really.

That is getting this in perspective.

It is nigh on impossible for a kid to get a job in France under 18. Jobs available are usually apprenticeship type things where the kid has to attend classes, either a day a week or week a month and the pay....... around 150 euros a month. And say a boulangerie apprentice has very long hours, you can forget the now redundant 35 hour week.

I know you like your bac education. I have friends in Ireland, (including two teachers) and we have talked about the education system there. One of them went up to Belfast to do her degree, she at least, is not enamoured with the bac as it is in Ireland.

 

[Frenchbrit]

 

'A child is learning by example, and at sixteen surely the parents are still a guiding force as to the path the child takes, .... '

I wish!  Obviously I have a 16 year old.  I feel that I have far less influence than the friends at lycee, and the mates from the neighbourhood, and the t.v./internet/teen society. Whether he takes more notice of me or the profs seems to depend on how much pressure and expert knowledge is involved. Since I regularly show my ignorance of the insider view of life at lycee in the 21st century - I'm often considered equally under informed about life in general! Oh hum!