Who is to blame?

[le bouffon]

I do not think all is lost for the young girl,I left school at 15 with very basic gce,s and now have two houses in france and at one point three  houses,if the girl is smart as opposed to being bright in an educational way there is hope even in france.Our kids are much better here in france than they ever were in uk,I feel that the standard of education over here is far better than they ever received or would receive in the uk,the standard of teaching they received was appalling,even to point where the eldest was assaulted by a teacher(she was 7 at the time,I took a day off work to go down to the school and yes I did complain and the teacher never went back to that school again).Not every one can afford a second home indeed most people cannot so that option  is not available to them.

[Russethouse]

In many ways I agree, Bouffon, not all is lost for this girl even if she is not academically bright she could still prosper, however I think the culture to do this is much more prevelent in the Uk and I doubt whether it would be so easy for French kids without qualifications to 'get on'.

As far as I am concerned when you have kids, doing your best for them and giving them every opportunity to thrive, goes with the territory. As children get older, and if a move is avoidable, I believe the harder parents should think,  moving to France maybe your dream, is it theirs ?

 

 

[Miki]

Bouffon, surely you have, by now, seen the huge difference in the way kids find

jobs in France ? It is of no use whatsoever for anyone to say "left

school at 15 and I had 3 houses in France, so anyone else can do that".

You did not earn any of that money from a standing start here in France.

 The way work and entrepreneurial efforts are rewarded in the UK,

can in no way happen here, e.g I was dealing in scrap whilst as school,

later on whilst only slightly older was doing some window cleaning

and  getting a few bob in the boot for playing soccer, I run for a bookie and earned a few bob like that, and always made a few shillings, here there and everywhere, whilst still at school....you

can totally forget doing anything like that here in France. Left school

and I was still earning a few quid on the side as well as working.

Again, that is something that one simply could not do in France, well

for sure a Brit couldn't !

I have mates who left school, who were not too educated, well in so

much as they left school at the first opportunity and for the most

part, they have done very well indeed but, that is in England. You harp

on

about

France being above the UK in just about everything but believe me, Bush

had it pretty near the mark, any enterprising kid leaving school here

without going the course, will be up against it from day one. That's a

fact, no good dreaming that without education, any British kid in

France

is going to be OK. As you have said before, then your kids will

move away to find something, well sadly perhaps, that is going to have

to be the case

if they don't want to carry on their education, cause there is little

or nothing here of any good, for those that leave work without making

an

effort to gain some kind of pass. Ask anyone on here with kids that

have done the distance in education and see how they feel about the

chances of their kids in the work place if they hadn't taken a course.

Just interested Gay but what are the many ways you agree ?

If the girl prospers here in any way, it will be through marriage (very

rare) or the loto, I truly cannot see any other chance the poor girl

would have and I don't say that lightly.

[tmto]

Just to reply to some of Wen's comments: the French educational system isn't completely as "rigid and inflexible" as you imply. I came here aged 12 and every school out of the three I went to (from CM2 to Terminale) had in place a system where foreign pupils were given extra lessons in French - basically catch-up lessons given by the French teacher, in addition to all the other usual lessons. Obviously I suppose this depends on each individual school and whether they have enough teachers available to be able to squeeze a few hours a week extra.

For older kids who do not speak French there are international schools (mainly in big cities and areas where international organisations are based). It would not be very cost-effective to have similar international structures in every school in France, where for some there may be only a handful of foreign pupils. So I can't agree with Wen's comment that "the French simply have to change some aspects of the way they do things here", because I certainly have no regrets about the way I was educated.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

Most of the Britons who settle in France choose to do so. There

are, of course, those who may be "forced" by work or by other

circumstances (though in the case of a company relocation, schooling is

usually taken care of as part of the package) but most of us take

advantage of our status as European citizens to make an unsponsored

move. With choice comes responsibilities, not least to those in our

care. To move by here by choice, to assume that the children will just

get on with it and adapt, without planning and prepartion to be as

certain as one can be that they will, in fact, benefit from the move is

simply negligent.

It is all well and good to suggest that the French authorities should

provide the necessary additional schooling to assist children in the

process of integration, but in practical terms rural areas (where, I

would suggest, most of us end up) are not always well equipped to

provide such services. Ultimately, parents are responsible for their

children's wellbeing. Whilst a move to France may look very attractive

to many adults, they should take care to remember that their desires

are very much a lower priority than the needs of their offspring, and

the two may not necessarily coincide.

[le bouffon]

Miki I do agree one hundred percent about France not being the most easy of places for anyone to start up/off in but should that stop anyone trying?no I do not think it should.For me I take for granted that the kids will move away one day,(if they do not, we will move away from them!)the thing that matters most to me is that they themselves feel that they want to come back and see us,and no matter what they do/are in the way life achievements, they are our kids,I would say that they should be happy in life not up to the eyeballs in debt with some mortgage on an over priced house and a second car shool fee,s etc in a way of life that was "forced" on them.There are many ways to live a life,the country does not need more edution it needs more enterpriners.

[Russethouse]

Just interested Gay but what are the many ways you agree ? If the girl prospers here in any way, it will be through marriage (very rare) or the loto, I truly cannot see any other chance the poor girl would have and I don't say that lightly.

How I agree is that I don't believe that academic qualification is a necessary for success in life in the UK, however I agree with you, in France its a whole different matter.

I agree with jond, who has put it a whole lot better than I would !

[Miki]

Aha, we agree on something, I am also with you 100%, that France needs more

and more entrepreneurs BUT the system is stacked against them. Recently

there have been abattements for some set against the usual cotisations

but they are just the tip of the iceberg. All work tends to be button

holed and nearly everything must be registered either at the C de Com

or Met, you do have the alternative route but all will still cost in

the end. Hardly surprising then that so many ditch it all in within 3

years.

People do try, we have known some people with great ideas, sadly most have

simply failed through the whole cost of the enterprise, others tend to

struggle alone, due again to the costs of hiring. I know some Brits who

have had some good ideas but tradionalism here has more or less kicked

them down again. France needs a hefty shove to enable all the ideas

that kids have to come to fruition but things are so tied up with costs

that very few can survive in to making it grow and pay, it is

frustrating and sad to see kids (and adults of course) full of what

they plan, only to hear their sad dstorty some while,later. There are

exceptions, of course there are but, you know, orthers know and I know,

just how many have made it through to become succesful people in the UK

and on a head count I wouldn't pout Fraqnce anywhere near the same

numbers as in the UK.

But a country MUST have education, first and foremost. One thing many

friends have told me, is just how much they wished they had stayed on

in education and learned more. It is OK being well off and/or rich but

not being able to speak with many more, than those on ones own minor

level and not on many other levels, they feel, means they miss out on

conversations they would like to take part in, a very fair point indeed.

One can be too busy earning in the early days and of course in later

days, to even try to learn more, something quite a few hold their hands

up to.

[HLG]

For the sake of anyone who might be in this girl's situation or in her

parents', teachers', or classmates', here are a few solutions:

1) students in the 14-15 age range should enroll in Troisieme; in the

15-17 age range, in Seconde, regardless of French skills, UNLESS they

want to pursue vocational education (mechanics, cooking, etc) in which

case they should enroll directly into the BEP the schoolyear when they

are 16, regardless of results in "Troisieme". If your child has studied

another foreign language (I., Spanish, German), see if there is a

"German LV1" or "Spanish LV1" track where they won't have to bear the

drag of three hours repeating "where is John? John is at the

supermarket. Where is Keisha? Keisha is at at school" AND where they'll

be on part with other students. Sometimes this scheme is called

"bilangue" (not to be confused with "bilingue"). If your LV1 of choice

isn't offered, youve got the right to register your child to the CNED

(www.cned.fr)  where for a small fee you'll get instruction in LV1

such as Hebrew, Arabic, Portuguese, Finish, or whatever isn't offered

at your school!

2) in parrallel, arrange for private tuition in French, either by

reputable co,panies like Acadomia, Sylvan, etc., or simply by asking your baker

whether a local student (enrolled in a FLE program at Uni) is

available. If you pay "above board" using a special "cheque emploi",

you get a 50% discount on  the fee. Don't skimp on this for the

first few months. EVEN IF YOUR KID IS KICKING AND SCREAMING!!!!

3) if your child is under 12, remember that the MAJORITY of schools in

the Western part of France have fewer than 4 classes and just as few

teachers, with many 2-room schoolhouses. The teachers may not be able

to help your child but if you ask politely and express thanks, they

will likely offer one-on-one free tutoring or suggest people who can

help as a start before you find the tutors described above. If your

child is 11, enroll him/her in CM2 unless they're bright or/and make

friends easily. If your child is 12 or above, s/he'll have to enroll at

the local "collège". Avoid "English LV1" as much as possible - pick

"Sixième bilangue" if it's offered or "Sixième européenne" even... (3

hours each of English and Spanish, with upper school classes

progressively taught in these languages; not sure what the difference

is, except that "européenne" has a special curriculum and is

selective). If only "anglais LV1" is offered, offer that your child not

attend the classes and instead attend "FLE" lessons (paid by yourself).

FLE= French as a Foreign Language or Francais langue étrangère. Before

registering your child at the collège, meet the principal and ask a)

what percentage of students pass the "brevet" (quel pourcentage des

élèves réussit le brevet?) - anything below 70% is bad news; 2) what

percentage of students are sent to a lycée (quel pourcentage des élèves

est orienté en lycée général et technologique?) If your child is

bright, indicate that your child plans to become "cadre" and "faire une

prepa apres le bac ES" ; if she's good at math, indicate that she plans

on being an engineer and "faire une prepa scientifique apres un bac

S-maths" - and say that you want to make sure she is enrolled in a

class that will allow her to achieve this.

4) Okay, for this girl, I highly doubt she "learned no FRench". She's

simply pretending so that her parents will send her back to England.

It's physically impossible not to pick up French when living in France,

especially when you attend school and are fairly young. Obviously she

hates being in France... but in all likelihood, she won't find the

England of her dreams when she returns. This has happened several times

to kids I know. A good way for any kid to enjoy French is to have them

register for activities they enjoy: basketball, rock-climbing,

photography, bird-watching, hang-gliding... The list available should

be presented at the mairie, at the maison pour tous, at the MJC, at the

CIDJ, at the CIO, at the office du tourisme... of your area.

5) Since your son's friend  wants to go back to England, unless

she plans to take root upon her grandmother's couch, she'd better make

herself employable. Now, if she returns to England and says she can't

speak French, what do you think the employer will say? (lazy/stupid

come to mind... Unable to seize an opportunity, not a risk taker would

be the mildest...) Ie., her best bet to return to England is to learn

the language as fast as possible and make it work in her favor there.

Watching "friends" in French can be hilarious. Sports and activities

are another way (see above). Anything will work. :)

Then, she should pick a vocational scheme that will be an added point

when she returns to England, one "traditionally" expected to be better

in France. One comes to mind: cooking. Now, there are excellent co-ops

("apprentissage", "alternance") in cooking. The student has 13 hours in

basic general classes and 26 weeks working in a restaurant, gaining

experience and getting about 800 euros a month. This leads to the BEP (

kind of vocational Olevels) and then there are several choices: direct

employment (in cooking, this is usually not a problem); specialization

in pastry, meat, chocolate, in one year; "seconde hoteliere" in a

special "lycee hotelier" (very selective but a garanteed job at the end

of the 3-year scheme); Bac Pro in 3 years with a specialty in cooking

(also possible "en alternance", as an apprentice, and also garanteeing

a job at the end.) NOw, a pastry chef returning with a French degree

would find "reinsertion" to England much easier than a

non-French-speaking girl, wouldn't you say?

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="HLG"]Avoid "English LV1" as much as possible - pick "Sixième bilangue" if it's offered or "Sixième européenne" even... (3 hours each of English and Spanish, [/quote]

But if you really do want Spanish, check the collège first.  Ours doesn't do Spanish till 4ème.  In 6ème and 5ème it's English and German.   They know that Spanish is easier for French children, so it's a way of "encouraging" them to do German!

[Wendy]

Okay, so, to move here and settle, one must have the permission of one's children...right? I'll ignore that. Also, France should not be expected to adapt to outsiders?? Lets take a look at England. What is the number one food eaten in England? Indian. Who brought Indian food to England? and who accepted it?.  ALL countries have to adapt to new arrivals, if not, there would be no Indian, Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, etc, restaurants in the UK or anywhere else. That is just one example. Why, on earth, should France not adapt to people from other cultures arriving here and introducing new things? It's happened in so many other countries. Or is it too threatening to the Brits, some of whom, who have moved here to escape those other cultures in their own country?.  France is not utopia and there are a lot of things that need changing here. It needs new blood. Learn all the french you like but it will not make this place a better and modern country for everyone else. And it's not just here to serve the British looking for a better lifestyle.

[Dick Smith]

I didn't say you have to have the permission of your children. I said that I was unprepared to do something which would make them very unhappy.

How weak of me, I should have forced them, I suppose.

[Viv]

"Why, on earth, should France not adapt to people from other cultures arriving here and introducing new things? It's happened in so many other countries".

In my [limited] experience France expects its immigrants to become French, yes it will embrace some foriegn culture but not at the expense of losing its Frenchness.

"Or is it too threatening to the Brits, some of whom, who have moved here to escape those other cultures in their own country?.  France is not utopia and there are a lot of things that need changing here. It needs new blood. Learn all the french you like but it will not make this place a better and modern country for everyone else"

France is not Utopia ...fully agree but if I was to move to outer Mongolia I would try and learn the language , how else can anyone even hope to get on? and what is your solution to making France a 'better and modern country"?

. "And it's not just here to serve the British looking for a better lifestyle" ...erm and your point here is what exactly??? You say France should adapt but then say its not here to serve the British , the latter bit I fully agree with.

[Teamedup]

Wen you made some good points in your post which as far as I was concerned were spot on as generalities.

But saying that, I still feel you have missed the point about education in France. It isn't a matter of adapting to foreigners.  It is the whole system which is inflexible and all the other points you made and they apply equally to french pupils. They find themselves up against exactly what you and I do not like. It really isn't any 'easier' for french kids than our own.

It was reformed in the 1880's.

 

It doesn't need to adapt to foreigners it needs to adapt itself to the needs of all pupils. How on earth they will ever manage that, I have no idea. Those that go into teaching have been through this rigid system. They will have seen how it works and favours people like themselves and believe it to be good and to work, (I would imagine) as it worked for them. Those that have some notion of improvement and hope to change the system in some way are firmly put in their place and disillusioned of new fangled ideas by their colleagues very early in their careers. So where does change come in.

Change will come when the french people want it. And as yet  the proposed reforms I have seen so far would make the system worse as far as I am concerned.

 

 

I was once told when my children were very small that the Education Nationale was a dinosaur that refuses to die and it took me a further 12 odd years to work out what this lady had meant.

We foreigners are for nothing in the grand scheme of things. The french need to do it.

 

 

[Tourangelle]

I feel France does adapt to foreigners who come into the education

system, especially if they arrive at an age to go to college or

younger.  But I am surprised by attitudes on this site (not

everybody of course) which express shock that in rural backwaters there

is not the support they would like.  In cities, there are classes

for children who arrive with little knowledge of the language and for

those who arrive and have difficulties, but obviously the resources

can't be everywhere, and most people arriving in France move to cities

rather than rural areas. 

TU, aren't you exagerating a little, I think the last major educational reform dates back to the collège unique, in 1975[:)]

[HLG]

Wen, you can't compare food with schools!!! First of all, France has

adapted very well to food imports... to the point most French people

don't even consider them as imports. When asked what their favorite

French foods were, the survey found that the top 3 answers were...

Couscous, pizza, and Paella! Except for the group of French people over

50 who chose "steak frites" and "blanquette de veau". "Quiche" was

ranked 4 in all groups (coming from Lorraine, which is borderline

German...)

But do you SERIOUSLY believe that a country should change its ENTIRE

educational system to fit to British people who have chosen to move

there? The French educational system prepares children to fit in and

live in France. Granted, it's got many downsides (rigidity and

disregard for children's creative needs come to mind) but... you can't

move to France and expect the country to revolve around your ideas and

values. Furthermore, if the French system were to become "like" the

British system, seriously.. it'd be chaos. [:P]

Finally, the department of Dordogne has set up two special "school

intendents" whose position is entirely devoted to working with primary

school teachers whose classes include British children. Where in

England do you know of such a position to help teachers deal with

Somali or Bengali children? There's even a website for parents and

teachers, to help kids settle in, including a picture dictionary in

half a dozen languages that can be printed out for free by any parent

before their child is sent to school.

[Wendy]

I don't expect the french to adapt entirely to the British - far from it - what I'm saying is that, for example, in our region, and obviously in that family's region, the system was unable to cope with just one non-french speaking pupil. That's not good. What will happen when/if  Turkey enters the EU? What if a drove of non-french speaking Turkish kids come here wanting to go to school?. If they cannot cope with one pupil speaking the number one european language-english- what on earth will they do otherwise?. I speak very highly of the education my 12 year old has received  here so far. There are some areas where the teachers do fall short though...when we arrived for inscription day the Principal actually had to look in the atlas for where Australia was, then she wanted to know why we spoke english if we were from Australia...what do the french think we speak there?. This was from a Principal. Also, after 18 months of trying to get my 18 year old into a school here - he was 16 on arrival- we have finally found a Lycee this week that has accepted him. And they are offering him 2 hours a week of french lessons, plus sitting in on classes, in the school, to gear him up for September, thats on top of the lessons he has already been taking. Now after many repeated visits to Inspection Academique and countless other schools, not one of them seemed to know that this particular Lycee actually takes 'foreign' students. And this school is only ten minutes walk from Inspection Academique. Why was it never suggested to us in the first place?. When I think of all the time wasted it makes me angry that my son could have been in this school to begin with. Anyway, my son is over the moon as other kids from the village go there. But why did IA not even know that one of its own schools accepted, and catered specifically for, foreign, and, non-french speaking kids?. Very bad admin indeed.

[HLG]

The "inspecteur" is named by the minister. He probably doesn't really know what's going on...

it's like any political nominee, you know. I bet it's the same in Australia.

The school probably accepts foreign students without telling... so if you mentioned it to the "inspecteur"

you might have gotten the principal there in trouble!

"systeme D" is essential in French education. A lot of things are told but done differently; a lot of

things aren't told... in order to get things smoothed out and all easy for you, you need to use "sesame" words.

For the principal, I can help you here... He thought you were saying "austria". I'm not kidding. :)

(ost- rah-lee is how Australia's pronounced in French, otherwise it sounds like Austria for them.)

Yes I agree there are big problem but "English" expectations about schooling simply don't apply.

No matter what we do, it saves us frustration and time to rad up about education in France.

I can prepare a list of books about schools if some parents are interested.

The lycee's already specialized, like colleges in Australi -

when you're above the "seconde" level, it's truly a nightmare because your child is supposed to

have chosen his "major" (like, he's reading math or literature or political science or engineering...)

and be placed in the correct track. It's easier if you pretend the kid is an "AFS" type "exchange student,

as most principals have dealt with those. :) Once your kid's enrolled in the right track, then it doesn't

matter. :)

The main resource is the CIO or the CIDJ. The CIO contains all the schools with all the tracks; languages,

and specialites. The CIDJ is more teen-friendly.

One of the difficulties is that official documents try to uphold ideals and the reality is kind of different.

Like, if there's a mention stating "the following course does not require students to enroll in track x"

implies that 99.9% students in the course are sent to track x.

I can try and answer your son's questions directly too, if it helps.

[tmto]

I find it odd that people are suggesting that countries should adapt to new arrivals. Personally I think it is far more logical (and easier) for new arrivals to adapt to the country. Locals will adapt  to foreign influences only if they like them or have a use for them (British people don't eat curry because they want to be nice to Indians - they eat it because it tastes nice. French people took up rugby because they enjoyed playing it, not because they felt they had to make the British feel at home).

[Mistral]

[quote user="HLG"] There's even a website for parents and teachers, to help kids settle in, including a picture dictionary in half a dozen languages that can be printed out for free by any parent before their child is sent to school.[/quote]

Could you post the link if you have it?

[HLG]

sure:

http://crdp.ac-bordeaux.fr/cddp24/enaf/une.htm

beside the picture-dictionary, there's also a test that can be

presented to teachers, to estimate what class the child should be

placed in; vocabulary most likely encountered in school (such as common

oral directions), math vocab, etc. Plus a list of teacher-approved

methods for children learning French.

The Cavillam has excellent stuff too but I don't know the website.

I think an article in "Monde de l'education" sums it up well: If the

child had a "normal" time at school in England and if the parents have

actual plans, problems are solved within 3 months. If parents just "up

and go", without any idea of what they'll do in France, without

learning French, without preparing children... then it spells disaster

for the children. (article is int he september 2005 issue - shoudl eb

available at your local public library or if there's a "CDDP" around. A

"CDDP" is a kind of pedagogical library.)

Another factor is finding French friends for one's children. British

kids need to have "fellow expats" who can relate but also "local

friends" who can introduce them to French childhood lore, games, etc...

Anything that will speed their socialization process will help them

cope with school (what TV shows MUST be watched? What games MUST one

play? What color must one wear - for girls-...) As far as I can tell

"Didle" toys are big with 7-10 year old girls and "totally spies" is

the cartoon of choice.... It may make the transition easier for your

children!

[Tourangelle]

I am absolutely stunned by the statistics on that site, I would never

have thought that the majority of immigrant children was British, even

in an académie like Bordeaux.  I can't find any statistics for

where I live (Lyon), but it is certainly not like that!

[Teamedup]

But look where the people on this board have moved to.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the statistics are so high and I am sure that they will be equally high in many other academies too.

[Tourangelle]

I was surprised at the proportions rather than the actual numbers as such. I didn't think the British would outnumber other nationalities to such

a great extent.  I've looked, but failed to find comparative

statistics for the whole of France, I would be interested to see if the

hotspots compare to my expectations![^o)]

[Mistral]

I agree that the percentage of British pupils is surprising but it was only for primo-arrivants (aren't they ENAF's now? makes me think of paté) so it's only pupils who have been there for less than a year.

I recently came across the2000 figures for the whole of france (of course I can't find them now) and the UK isn't even mentioned, it's just grouped in with  autres pays UE. Italie, portugal and spain all have their own catagory.