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Moving to France with a 13year old girl


Alison
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Even if somebody's research was limited to internet forums it wouldn't seem difficult to find out that the French educational system is pretty traditional and formal, possibly rigid and inflexible even. If you feel that a system like that wouldn't suit your children and you would be out of sympathy with it, then surely that would be a reason not to move to France or to leave it until your children are older? Luck doesn't come into it. For people like you who've been here for a long time, you had to learn by experience; others are now able to learn from you.

When I say "others may feel", I meant that the aspects of the French educational system that you perceive as negative, may be perceived by others as positive. You seem to assume that everybody holds the same view as to what makes a "good education" as you do; that's not necessarily the case.

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I have to say that I agree with everything Miki has said (and I don't always ! sorry Miki).  Daughter started here in CP and is now in Cinquieme.  She did speak French before arriving here, so her situation is somewhat different than some.  I could write out a list of all the negatives and all the positives that we have found in the French Education system, but, it appears no one wants to hear it. 

I am all for a good debate and up to now, I thought this was going pretty well.  I believe when someone takes the time to post their experience, it should be taken as such and not diagnosed or criticised to the bone by people who could have done better by PM'ing the poster and asking them more about how they came to their opinion (in a polite way).

The system has good and bad points.  Some schools are better/worse than others (particularly when dealing with non-French-speaking students) .  Some students will deal with whatever's thrown at them in a positive, go get em way, some won't.  Some regions will accept foreigners, including students, better than others.  You really have to weigh the entire picture.  We can only tell you how our experiences have played out, good, bad or indifferent.  They should all count.

 

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[quote user="KathyC"]As far as replacement teachers are concerned, having seen my husband working as a supply teacher (childminder in reality) in the UK, I would consider that many schools would be better off saving their money. It's also quite common nowadays for unqualified teaching assistants to cover for absent staff, with varying results.[/quote]

In France, there is no replacement (supply ) teacher unless the actual teacher is signed off work for a longer period than 2 weeks. If they are absent for less time other teachers in the school are "encouraged" to cover for them, but they don't have to. If they are absent for more than 2 weeks, then the Inspection might be able to find a replacement teacher (if there is one available and if there is enough money- they once refused to find a maths teacher for a 6 month replacement because they did't have the money) There are two types of replacement teachers but for one of them the only criterium is to have a degree. Not to have any other qualifications or training.

Thinking about being prepared for the system before you move: I've been here for 15 years and been a teacher for 14. I've taught in 8 different secondary schools (from collège to LGT and even LEP) plus a stint at the IUFM. I've got three kids at three different schools; And I'm still not sure I understand the system completely. I know that a lot of born and bred French people don't get it either. I see enough parents who are as lost (if not more so) as many people on the forum.

About the uselessness (or not) of learning french grammar. I used to think that french people (teachers) were far to fussy about it. Until I realised that I was comparing it with what you need to write English correctly. In English, speaking the language well can be enough to be able to write it more or less correctly. In french this just isn't enough. BUT, I have tried and tried and I just can't see the point of some of the things they have to learn. I mean, knowing exactly what kind of subordinate a clause is or knowing the difference between an epithet or qualificatif adjective.

Here's an extract from a French brevet paper (so for 14 year olds) I'm still not too sure what a connecteur temporel is.

 a) Relevez du dĂ©but du texte jusqu'Ă  "Est-ce que j'aurais peur ?" et de "Et un singulier besoin" jusqu'Ă  la fin les connecteurs temporels qui font progresser le rĂ©cit. 
    b) Comment s'explique selon vous la prĂ©sence de nombreux paragraphes ? 
    c) CaractĂ©risez Ă  l'aide d'un adjectif qualificatif le rythme ainsi crĂ©Ă©. 

I'm glad all I have to do is invigilate.  

TU, good to see you back

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We have four children at school here ( three at college and the youngest at primaire)  and so far have been very pleased with the way they have been accepted and helped by both schools. The only thing that really concerns us is the lack of cover for absent teachers whether it's due to sickness , school trips or strikes. This can only hinder the kids chances of passing the brevet but seems to be taken for granted by most parents (the kids themselves obviously don't complain either!).

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[quote user="KathyC"]

Even if somebody's research was limited to internet forums it wouldn't seem difficult to find out that the French educational system is pretty traditional and formal, possibly rigid and inflexible even. If you feel that a system like that wouldn't suit your children and you would be out of sympathy with it, then surely that would be a reason not to move to France or to leave it until your children are older? [/quote]

Sorry Kathy but that just wont wash. No one but no one will know how their kids will react, other than the education in a foreign land is bound to be different. How many times will we read how scared mothers were but then realised that it was unfounded and kiddie loves his new school in France ? And I have to say again, my own experience shows me that many parents bring kids here with fingers crossed that all will be well, whilst one simply knows that they came purely for their own want. I am not saying that is wrong but it certainly means luck will play an enormous part as far as education is concerned.

I simply cannot see a significant percentage of families thinking along those lines you speak of, they are more likely to believe the TV programmes about France, than to believe me and any others. And as has been said a few times already, what use is experience anyway!!

[quote] Luck doesn't come into it. For people like you who've been here for a long time, you had to learn by experience; others are now able to learn from you.[/quote]

Now that is where I have it over you, believe it or not, I do know more about my family's long journey here in France than you. We had so much luck, I honestly thought  the bubble must burst at any time time and as an old golfer once said, the harder we tried (practiced) the luckier we got....believe me, luck played a huge part in any success we, or the kids have had here. As I have said a million times, we had no such thing as a forum or anyone around us to aid us for a long time during the initial perioid. We stumbled and we slipped all over the place, often it fell in to place BUT and here I say it again....luck played its significant part.

[quote] When I say "others may feel", I meant that the aspects of the French educational system that you perceive as negative, may be perceived by others as positive. You seem to assume that everybody holds the same view as to what makes a "good education" as you do; that's not necessarily the case.[/quote]

Whoah, I speak purely from my own experience of life here, I don't assume any more than what I speak of. If you want to attack my experiences as negative, then you do not know about me or my family. Our youngest (Daughter) is doing well, right the way from early Primaire through to this years Bac +2 with 2 redoubles for various reasons, one being a recent change of tack. So, you can see, we have one who thinks and is much more French than British and our youngest Son did as well but when it come down to further education here (that is Lycéee and beyond) he completely rejected the idea and went back to the UK. Now I think it fair to say I see two sides of the coin and that I can only speak, as I find.

The problem here seems to be, some people will be speaking from a very early stage of knowing education here or in fact, some with no experience at all but feel they know something about education, so that will fit the bill here in France as well. Well sorry, read the posts, you will see decent, honest and intelligent people who have been astonished by the system here, even believeing before arriving that they knew what was ahead and that goes for a couple of teachers as well here, who see things first hand but then, that it will mean using that terrible word experience  again.....................

So please don't tell me I know it all to try and belittle my views, I know what I know and have been through and will tell only that.

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Wow. This thread has struck a chord alright! I look forward to tomorrow with dread now as those with kids won't be ferrying them back and forth quite so much as the rest of the week.

We just received the latest report from the college and it has set us thinking a little about some of the marks and whether they are realistic or not.

Frankly, I suspect that for most of the marks, the numbers may as well have been picked out of a hat for their accuracy and I was wondering if others felt the same?

For instance, we have an example from 5e physics class where Allan was able to write out the correct answer (to a very badly worded question) by simply reading the equivalent of blah blah blah interruptor blah blah and answering more or less blah blah interruptor blah blah in effect. All this without knowing that an interruptor was a switch. Is that typical of the dreaful way questions are made up in France?

After a couple of years, Allan is pretty much fluent in French, or is he? Not really because he can chat easily enough in the present tense but is pretty much at sea with the past and future tenses. For all those that consider their children "fluent": have you tried asking them in French what they did yesterday or what they are planning doing tomorrow?

Funnily enough, the english teacher is the only one who seems to have thought about the implications of teaching a native-english speaker. As she correctly says, his english grammar isn't really up to it. Why should it be? After all, it has been almost three years now since he has had the opportunity to interact in english. In fact, I don't know that he has learned any more language structures for english since he came here ie his english isn't progressing.

On the topic of learning French grammar: take care!! I well remember one student who went with me to the Alliance Francaise class whilst we were in the UK. He was miles ahead of me in terms of grammar accuracy which isn't surprising really since he'd been studying it for getting on for 10 years and was finishing off a French degree at the time. Funny thing is that he wasn't fluent. He translated everything from english to prefectly grammatically correct french. He certainly did it very fast but frequently stopped in mid-french phrase and said to himself "how do I say that" (in english). So, 99.99% gramatically correct, yes. Fluent, no.

 

Arnold

 

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This may be slightly off-topic as it is my nearly 13 year old daughter's opinions on her own college.  I thought it might be interesting for some of you.

..   I did enjoy Primary school as with one teacher, it was easier to learn and communicate.  As it was small, they got to know you easily and were normally very patient and nice.

..  As I already know how to speak French, there were no problems due to language.

..  In sixieme, I was in a class of delinquents (her choice of words, but not far off from reality) and they may have been nice to me, but were really nasty most of the other students and really nasty to the teachers.  They would punch and fight at recess all the time.  Some were expelled, but only for a certain amount of days.  Upon return, they would just start over again.  They didn't seem to care about all the detention hours and all the other punishments.  They just wanted to have fun.

..  In general, the surveillantes, weren't enough to calm down all the fighting and pushing in the cour de recre.  But, when they did catch you doing something they sure did yell.

..  In cinquieme, I'm in a better class, but there are still a few delinquents.  In my opinion, they are all over the school and nothing serious gets done about it.  Just today, at lunch, two students were fighting in the cour de recre and one of them (who is in my class), took a knife out.  He didn't verbally threaten the other, but he made sure it was seen.  The student without the knife reported the other one and he may be expelled for two days or a week. 

..  This year I detest my French teacher as she is severe for things that are not at all important in French class as in being two minutes late or other silly things.  I often think that she finds these silly things more important than actually knowing and understanding lessons.

..  Racism is a problem in school as it always is (her words not mine).  It is forever starting fights.  The most common forms of racism I see are against black or Arab students.  As a result of this racism, the Arab students have resorted to bullying and feeling the need to shove everyone else around.

..  Stealing is also a problem in school.  Older students bully younger students and steal their money. 

..  Anyone who is different in the school is bullied and / or laughed at.  Such as kids who don't have any money and therefore can't buy all the trendy "stuff" the others can.

..  I do like the freedom I am given in College.  I like having all my friends around me.  I enjoy taking the bus to and from school.  I like meeting new students every year.

 

This may be slightly off topic as it is from a 13 year old who has lived here for five years and has been in the system all that time (public French schools).  However, I thought it might be interesting to hear another student's point of view.  The above are her words, not mine.

 

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[quote user="Miki"]




So please don't tell me I know it all to try and belittle my views, I know what I know and have been through and will tell only that.




[/quote]

Miki

You've completely misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't trying to belittle your views at all. I genuinely meant that your knowledge comes from experience and is hardly won. I also genuinely meant that people moving over now can benefit from your and others' experience. You don't have to be so cynical as to think that everybody's posts have a snide message underneath.

What I was trying (and obviously failing ) to get across was the fact that someone could honestly describe their experiences and how bad they were and somebody else could think that the description fitted the sort of education they wanted for their child.

eg

Person 1. "The education system is very rigid, they all sit in rows and memorise facts. They're beaten over the head with sharp objects when they're naughty".

Person 2 "That sounds wonderful. That's exactly what I want for my child".

Please see what I mean, I'm about to throw the laptop out of the window!

"

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OK Roz, so your children were educated in Africa. Which means, they were educated using the English language. I also have friends who raised their kids in India and Africa and could say the same thing as both countries use English as almost their first language. So dont use the 'foreign' option in that case. Anyway, I would like to see how your posts would have read had you first moved to an area such as ours. Quite simply you and your kids would have been told to sod off. Or, as a last resort, your kids would have been placed in a one-off class, in a school building that would not have looked out of place in West Beirut,  with illiterates from Algeria, Angola and Morocco. How would that have sat with you?.

France is divided up into, not only provinces, but many different attitudes. 

And frankly, as a professional musician/tutor myself, money can not be an option for you if you can afford your kids to learn several different instruments. Violin teachers, for a start, dont come cheap as I know myself.

Dont brow beat posters here just because your experience has been to your liking. Just because France has beautiful villages, wonderful people, great wine, delicious cheese and sausages, and SOME schools that welcome non-french speaking kids with open arms;  it does not mean that these things exist all over France.  French education is NOT the same all over France.  Many of us have come here and praised what we have found, many of us have come here and lived to regret it. Most of us just make the best of what we have at our doorstep. Trial and error is what it is called.

Where you are seems to be the answer to all our dreams...can we all come and live there with you too?...

 

 

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[quote user="mascamps.com"]

After a couple of years, Allan is pretty

much fluent in French, or is he? Not really because he can chat easily

enough in the present tense but is pretty much at sea with the past and

future tenses. For all those that consider their children "fluent":

have you tried asking them in French what they did yesterday or what

they are planning doing tomorrow?

[/quote]

Not in so many words, but I do listen to them talking. My seven year

old speaks French just like her nasty little friends. They all make

errors (and I'm only aware of the ones I don't make myself, obviously)

but they all use (to some extent) the full range of spoken tenses &

moods - present, imperfect, future, conditional and present subjunctive

plus the associated composit tenses. Actually, I've never heard any of

them use a passé du subjunctive, but maybe I wasn't listening carefully

enough. Of course, they don't necessarily know that they are using this

bewildering mass of grammer any more than a seven year old speaking

English would know. I don't think my children are necessarily genius

material (though I am immensely proud of them), but they came here very

young.

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I am the thirteen year old daughter of Opas ,she has asked me if I would be in england untill now and came to france ,how do I think I would have mannaged in school.

well I would have struggled in all of my lessons,I am sure that I would have got picked on as I would not have been able to speak to any one ,when I arived I was only 9 and made friends through play.3 years on and I can speak with anyone and corect my mum and dad  on there french.

My mum made me read the question that mistral put on as she was confused by what it was asking,and I explained it out,she was very surprised.

 

 

Opas here again, my daughter had always struggled in school in UK and we came here when she was 9, I would not have left it any later for her, when I read that exam question that Mistral put on this afternoon i panicked!  I asked her to read it as she is now in 5em(a year behind her age group) when she explained out all the terminology I was chuffed. OK it was probably easy for the rest of the forum to follow but I was genuinly worried for her. I feel quite relieved now.

My aim now is to get her back on track with her Engish (and the youngest , now 9) as their spelling and grammar is definatly suffering. They read French comics/books and watch french TV/radio

All I can say is that only the parents know their children well enough to move them at a time that is right, it was the right time for us when eldest was 9 .

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[quote]Miki

You've completely misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't trying to belittle your views at all. I genuinely meant that your knowledge comes from experience and is hardly won. I also genuinely meant that people moving over now can benefit from your and others' experience. You don't have to be so cynical as to think that everybody's posts have a snide message underneath.

What I was trying (and obviously failing ) to get across was the fact that someone could honestly describe their experiences and how bad they were and somebody else could think that the description fitted the sort of education they wanted for their child.

eg

Person 1. "The education system is very rigid, they all sit in rows and memorise facts. They're beaten over the head with sharp objects when they're naughty".

Person 2 "That sounds wonderful. That's exactly what I want for my child".

Please see what I mean, I'm about to throw the laptop out of the window!

[/quote]

[:D][:D]

Hold on to the lap top Kathy,

We all know by now, that text can be fraught with poor communication and understanding.

Reading it like you have done there is pretty clear and yes, it can be like that. I am not sure how Tina would have taken to that style though, let alone the kids !!

Someone ? once mentioned serveillants, (school helper!) well they can be like little Hitlers and are simply what we might call snitches, some even being bullies ! The French have grown up with them, so it's just normal school life and then there's the class wotsit (the name escapes me at the moment) who is one of the pupils and sits on discussions etc about her/his fellow pupils, those two  people, I would think,  are unknown to British people coming over and they are hard to actually come to terms with. Not a big thing but another quite different thing for kids and their parents to come to terms with..................there's more differences of course....lots more but....................

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OK, the laptop stays, entente cordiale restored.

Anyway, I'm off to Spain tomorrow for a month ( 3 rounds of E Viva Espagne) where they  push donkeys off towers and no doubt torture 5 year olds 3 times before breakfast. But at least it's warm (at the moment anyway) and we should get some sun in before facing what may well be our final winter on the jolly old Isle of Wight. (Probably a damn sight warmer than in the Dordogne where we hope to be next year.) Adios amigos!

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[quote user="wen"]

OK Roz, so your children were educated in Africa. Which means, they were educated using the English language. I also have friends who raised their kids in India and Africa and could say the same thing as both countries use English as almost their first language.

[/quote]

 

Wen, just a tiny point, but similar to the one  made earlier about the lack of knowledge of world geography in French schools: Africa is a continent, not a country. Approximately half the countries in Africa are Francophone countries, including Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Senegal, Cote d'Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Djibouti, RDC........

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I think that was why I posted the question. I know most collège pupils can do it, that's what they are being trained for. What I don't really understand is the point of that training. You give them a question like that and they all know what a connecteur temporel is, but then when you ask them what a verb is, 27 out of 28 will give you the stock answer of "it's the word in the sentence that  is conjugated" without being able to find one in a simple sentence. I read too many texts written by kids who know all the rules and can do this sort of brevet question but cheerfully make no difference between "Ă©" and "er". I remember one class of second (who logically had their brevet) who refused to accept that the future ending for je was "ai" they all insisted on "ais"

By the way, that question was worth 2 points in the 2003 French brevet. Another 38 to go.....

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

Congratulation to MS Opas - it looks as if she is doing very well!

But Opas, if your eldest daughter had got to 13 would have still have considered the move ?

[/quote]

No, as I said in my post, I would not have left it any later for her.

I would be like a rabbit in the headlights if I was to be put in a college full of kids that spoke a language I did not understand!

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[quote user="opas"][quote user="Russethouse"]

Congratulation to MS Opas - it looks as if she is doing very well!

But Opas, if your eldest daughter had got to 13 would have still have considered the move ?

[/quote]

No, as I said in my post, I would not have left it any later for her.

I would be like a rabbit in the headlights if I was to be put in a college full of kids that spoke a language I did not understand!

[/quote]

[:D][:D]

I felt like that, for the first 3 years at least. All the open nights, where everyone was gabbling away just made me turn off and I tried hard to concentrate on just one conversation. Even now, if the conversation between a few of us, takes a twist and goes miles off subject (Mmm heard that one before....somewhere) I have to ask questions as to, what the hell are they on about !

Back to homework and exams. I guess all of us who have kids go through exams, say from Collège upwards, are surprised at the toughness (to us anyway) of the exam questions. I have no doubt that "helping" the kids through endless nights of homework has rubbed off but even now, I am mostly at a loss when I see much of Daughters work and it's not as if I had bad education.....................just very different [;-)] ..............Well that's my, fairly good, excuse anyway !

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[quote user="mascamps.com"]

Makes you wonder about how poor the teaching of geography is in France, doesn't it?[/quote] 

And if I had a penny for every time I had to explain the difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to a Brit.... (no, we don't use the same currency, no, the laws are different, as are the educational systems, yes you will  have to use an international stamp...). Poor teaching and lack of general knowledge is not just a French trait and kids the world over need to learn what seem like useless facts to pass exams.

On the grammar, having been to various language courses over the years with students from all over the world, it is amazing how a lack of basic knowledge of grammar holds people back in learning how to become fluent (and by that I mean in terms of written as well as oral French - there are many who can communicate fluently but not correctly). In every class, it is the anglophones learning their first language who have the most difficulty in understanding how to construct sentences because they often don't even know what a pronoun is and have no idea of the grammar of their own language let allow how to relate it to a foreign language. 

 

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There are definite highs and lows.  My daughter is 16 and in her first year a lycĂ©e and it's been a real shock after collège.  One would say that she speaks fluently has a good social circle etc.  However,missing out on the early years of a French education are really showing now.  She's a reasonably intelligent girl who I expect would have sat her 'A' levels etc but her she is disadvantaged because her knowledge and expertise in French Grammar is missing. The days are very long and the professeurs unsympathetic.  She ready to pack it in and take an easier option. I have to take responsibility when ends up on minimum wage because she can't complete her education. I have to say I'm impressed by the earlier poster who moved with 15 and 16 year olds who still managed to complete their bacs with flying colours....my daughter's struggling to get anywhere near a moyenne of 10 let alone the heady heights of 18 which would be her English equivalent. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Mod hat on

jpe, Unless I have missed a lot of posts which quite frankly I don't think I have, can I just say it is inappropriate to attack any poster in the way you are attacking Miki here, if you have comments of this nature you should make them via PM or email or use the report button.

The same goes for everyone else in this thread, attacking other forum members does not help answer the question which is about education, this has been a useful discussion, I certainly do not want to end up deleting it.

Everyone comes from a different viewpoint, please all try and be tolerant of that.

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