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2nd trimester reports


Wendy
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My son's report arrived in the post last week. Once again I note the absence of any praise or positive comments at all. He has had to redouble 6eme and this time round is now speaking french quite confidently. He is enjoying school much more than last year, has made friends, is much more involved and his marks are above the class average. But still only remarks in the negative as to how he could do better. Also, strangely, Ive noticed that he has been marked down for 20 1/2 day absences for each Tuesday that there are no classes after lunch and Ive had to go and collect him and sign him out. On approaching the school I've discovered that all the local 'walk homes'  for Tuesday afternoons are not  marked absent, only my son who has to be collected as we live 12 km's from the school and they refuse him permission to get the bus home before 5.pm. My son has seen his report and he's quite discouraged. Has anyone else noted this sort of thing?. Do the French have a word for 'encouragement'!!?. What a depressing bunch they are.
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Wen, that's very sad.

In my son's collège the top few (the exact number differs from class to class) will get a "félicitations" from the Conseil de Classe.

True, it's not much in itself, but it means a whole lot to my son!

Maybe you could suggest something similar to your son's class representative? 

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We're not actually supposed to give either "encouragements" (I mean the official term on the bulletin) or "felicitations" any more. This came from some parents going to court a few years back complaining that an "avertissment" on their son's bulletin was permemantly there and could count against him even years later. So now we can't put any comments like that, either negative or positive. Most schools get round it by using "nous vous félictons....." in their comments, but some cheerfully ignore the law. My new headmistress has decided to allow the positive comments but put an avertissment on a separate sheet. In some schools, the are calculated on the moyenne general, so you get fel for above 15 and enc for above 13. I don't mind for fel, but I feel that enc should be for any noticable efforts whether work, attitude whatever.

Wen, it's a pity that the teachers haven't taken your son's progress with the language and integration into account. We try to do that with our primos. If he is above class average, I think I would certainly have suggested "encouragements" at least if he was in my class.

We are supposed to have three parts to the bulletin comments (and at one point they were supposed to split into three boxes) first we are supposed to describe the situation, then we should expalin why and last say what the child should do to improve. Being positive isn't in the rules.  This is consistant with how the thinking works in france; you are always on the look for what can be improved.

For the 1/2 days. I'm a bit confused. If he's been signed out than he shouldn't be counted as absent (I'll check with our CPE tomorrow on that one when I sign my own son out at 1.30) or I suppose it counts as a  absence justifié.

Are you sure he's on the right regime de sortie? In my school there are three; (1) they have to stay until the end of the day whatever their timetable says or even if teachers are absent (2) they have to be in collège according to their timetable even if a teacher is absent (3) they can leave once they have no more lessons.  So as an example; If a class has french from 2.30 to 3.30 and then nothing,  The first group will stay until 4.30, the second and third groups will leave at 3.30. If the french teacher is absent, group (1) still stays until 4.30, group (2)still stays until  3.30 and group (3) can go home at 2.30

 

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What is all this about class average, and top of the class? Our kids are too young for college, so I don't know how it works. Is it true that children are placed in order within each class? Is that order made public? If you have a 'class average', then by definition 50% of the children will be classed as 'below average'. How does that make that 50% feel? What about the 25% who are, by definition, in the bottom 25% of the average? How do they feel about themselves?

If I understand it correctly it seems a very discouraging system for half of all children. Is there no acknowledgement of other factors, like effort, attitude to work, social skills?

Jo

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Yes, there is a moyen for everything.

Each student has a personal moyen for each subject, calculated from the contrôles that they do throughout the term.

These moyens then go to make the class moyen for that subject.

And then there's your overall moyen, which is calculated from the moyens of each subject.  So you could have a moyen of 20 in Maths, French, and German, but a moyen of 5 in Sport and Art would bring your overall moyen down.

Lists of who got what aren't made public, but other pupils will probably know them.  Or they'll at least know who the best and worst are!    According to son, individual teachers when giving back contrôle results will often say who got what, in front of the class.

Now I'm hoping Mistral is hanging around, to give us the real story!  Mistral's good.  [:D]

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Sounds a fairly normal sort of report.  Our daughters report is often full of demotivating  and negative coments -I am not sure the French teachers actually know how to write objectively - not surprising since thay have all come from the same system  [^o)] In the last couple I have added some large circles around some entries  and added some complementary remarks in red pen[:D]

regs

 

Richard

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Joe53, the moyenne is how many marks they get for their work based on 20 being the highest.

So if your child in primary has a math test of forty questions and gets 27 right then the moyenne for that subject will be 13.5. Each subject will be marked like that and then all these marks added together and divided by the number of subjects. All parents usually know their own child's moyenne, even in primary school.

And any moyenne under 12 is considered poor around here.

Also they don't count 'negative' marks here. Although will happily give say a -15 for dictee. It would just get classed as zero for the moyenne. And it is easy to get a negative result as two points are taken off for each mistake. I think the worst I head of was a -26. That kid was delighted one day when they really did get zero.

 

Felicitations and encouragements were only ever given to the elite in my eldest son's college class. I remember being at a class council and a boy had gone from something like 11.5 to 13. So the lad had made real progress. No 'encouragement' though, he got, something like 'some improvement but could do better'. Sadly and all these class council meetings were the same, not one teacher suggested that this lad should have had and 'encouragement' either on that occassion or for any other child who had a poor moyenne and had improved. In fact not one kid in that class who had a moyenne of under 16 ever got a 'felicitation' or 'encouragement'

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SB, part of the problem is that I only know what happens in my own class. Personally, I don't call out grades as I give copies back, nor do I give them back in grade order (that sounds like hard work to me, you need to sort them! Mine go back in the order they came in) But from what pupils say, quite a lot of teachers do one or the other. I announce the best and worse grades before (without names of course) and the best grade gets a special stamp so they don't spend all hour asking everybody what they got to find out if they were best. (but then I have effort stamps and progress stamps as well- to my pupils' delight and my colleagues confusion)

How moyennes are used and veiwed depends on each teacher and on the overall attitude in the school. Even if schools can't build a "school ethic" in the same way as the UK, some things can permeate. I spend a fair amount of time explaining to pupils that the word "moyenne" as used here, is almost impossible to translate into English. Who wants to be average?

As SB and TU have said, everything is graded out of 20 (or 10 or 40 .... and then recalculated) and then you average it out to work out what the pupil's moyenne for the term is. There is no "effort" grade, just what they got in their tests. People here comment on the number of tests pupils have, well one of the reasons is that the more tests they have, the more accurate the moyenne will be. Something like education civique which is an hour every fortnight, may only have one test all term. If a particular pupil doesn't manage that test, then that's the only grade he has. I cope OK with the moyene idea (maybe I've been here too long) but I HATE the moyenne general, where you make a moyenne out of all the subject moyennes. It doesn't anything, I mean a pupil ends up with ten when he has 1 in maths and 19 in education civique. But since the moyenne general is used for the brevet and the bac it's difficult to avoid.

During conseils de classe there is usually a table with all the moyennes and the class moyenne in every subject. but quite honestly most people have got better things to do that work out who did best. I know that it's the first thing the pupils (and unfortunately most of the parents) do. I just check that their grades in english are frighteningly worse than in other subjects! Some schools don't print the moyenne gen, which I think is a good idea. My previous school used to have a M4 as well which was french, maths, english and Hist:géo. That's really putting the other subjects in their place!

A "good" moyenne depends on the level. For example in primary you would expect around 15 whereas in 2nde 15 would be extrememly good. Then you get useless teachers who over grade pupls to keep them quiet (did I really say that?) and others who have very high levels of expectation. (me apparently)

The magic number is 10! Having "la moyenne" is what it's all about. 9.5 is just not good enough! This is an old idea that comes from the era (which I'm not sure ever really existed) when if you had 10 you went on to the next class and less than 10 you stayed down another year.

Things are developing slowly. In the years I've been going to conseils I've noticed that comments are less about how a pupil  who has got 8 could do better and more discussions on if this is the best he can do. There are many more comments on what we think a pupil is capable of and if he is fulfuilling his potential. this is quite radical and some of the old guard have trouble with it (it means they actually have to think about individual personalities) it means that conseils take longer but they are maybe slightly more human.

 

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[quote user="Mistral"]

I HATE the moyenne general, where you make a moyenne out of all the subject moyennes. It doesn't anything, I mean a pupil ends up with ten when he has 1 in maths and 19 in education civique. [/quote]

Not exactly - firstly, making a moyenne générale out of all the other moyennes is mathematically flawed as some teachers give out more tests than others. You can't make a moyenne générale by taking the moyenne of a subject where a student has only been tested twice, and adding it on to a moyenne where he has been tested ten times, and then just divide by two. You'd have to divide by 12.

Secondly, different subjects are weighted differently, according to their general importance within the educational system and their relevence to the section a pupil has chosen to be in. For instance a pupil in 1ère Scientifique will have more emphasis placed on maths, biology and physics than litterature and languages, so his/her marks in the former subjects will have higher co-efficients than the latter ones. So if the co-efficient in maths is say 5, it will be about 2 in litterature, meaning that all marks obtained in maths will be weighted 2 and a half times more.

At the lycée level this generally priviliges the subjects in which a pupil is better at, because a kid who tends to get better marks in scientific subjects will probably choose to pass a bac scientifique.

Therefore if a student, in his first two tests of the school year, were to get a 13 in maths at co-efficient 5, and a 7 in literature at co-efficient 2, his moyenne at that point would be (13x5) + (7x2) / 7 = 11.3. Not 13 + 7 / 2 = 10. And so on with all the marks that would ensue.

Sorry to be pedantic, but just wanted to say that marks aren't as arbitrary as they appear and some students can even use the different co-efficients to their advantage, particularly when it comes to obtaining the bac and optional subjects can be taken by students if they wish to do so, some of which carry co-efficients which will boost the overall final mark.

 

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[quote user="tmto"]

Not exactly - firstly, making a moyenne générale out of all the other moyennes is mathematically flawed as some teachers give out more tests than others. You can't make a moyenne générale by taking the moyenne of a subject where a student has only been tested twice, and adding it on to a moyenne where he has been tested ten times, and then just divide by two. You'd have to divide by 12.

[/quote]

tmto, are you saying that this doesn't happen, or that it shouldn't happen?

My son is in 5ème, and it certainly seems to happen there, you can calculate the moyenne générale directly from the other moyennes.   Being not so good in sport and art brings his moyenne down to just under 16, when his "academic" marks tend to be 17-20.

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Thanks for your comments tmto. Of course you're right, in the bacs there are different coéfs. 

But we were talking about bulletins trimestriels in collège and all the way through collège and at least for the 2nde general at lycée, all subjects have the same coéficiant. All subjects also have the same weighting for the control commune at the brevet.

[quote user="tmto"] Not exactly - firstly, making a moyenne générale out of all the other moyennes is mathematically flawed as some teachers give out more tests than others. You can't make a moyenne générale by taking the moyenne of a subject where a student has only been tested twice, and adding it on to a moyenne where he has been tested ten times, and then just divide by two. [/quote]

Unfortunately this is exactly what happens, both on the bulletins and for the brevet. Which is another reason I dislike it.

[quote]At the lycée level this generally priviliges the subjects in which a pupil is better at, because a kid who tends to get better marks in scientific subjects will probably choose to pass a bac scientifique.[/quote]

Thanks for that info, I'll be sure to pass it on to my 3emes while I discuss the relative merits of a bac STL over a STG and whether it is better to do ISI+ISP or ISI+LV2.

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[quote user="tmto"]

At the lycée level this generally priviliges the subjects in

which a pupil is better at, because a kid who tends to get better marks

in scientific subjects will probably choose to pass a bac scientifique.

[/quote]

well if we are being pedantic, a kid who has good enough marks to take a bac S will often do

so even if they do better none scientific subjects.  It is mad, but they

all want to do S, it drives me up the wall, but it is a question of

"prestige"

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Regarding the "moyenne"... 10 doesn't mean "average" although that's what it translates as... it means "met the basic standards". Kind of like a B or a C (depending how difficult your school is.) The higher you go, the harder it is to get grades of 16 and above. So for example, "good" would be  18-15 in Primary, 14 in Sixieme and Cinquieme, 13 in quatrieme and Troisieme, 12 in Seconde, 10-11 in Premiere and Terminale (it also depends on subjects: in France, humanities teachers are notoriously harder than science teachers. On the "French literature" exam of the bac, I think they calculated that the median mark was 8.3!!!! In philosophy, 3/4 of the students get marks under 8.) 20 can only be attained in math, if results, problem solving, and 'style' are PERFECT.

As to why "sports" and "education civique" and "French" all count the same in the collège, here's the reasoning: kids who aren't good at "core" subjects often have decent marks in "minor" subjects (often because music, sports, art... tend to give points for effort, too). Therefore, by adding everything up together, the school gives a chance to pupils whose academic performance isn't too good, but who made some effort.  As for kids who are good at French, math, English, and history-geography, but not sports or art or technology, the reasoning goes: it keeps them from being too cocky by bringing their 'moyenne' down and ultimately it doesn't affect them negatively, because "orientation' decisions are never made based on the moyenne generale, but based on the "core subject" average.

If your son got comments like "peut mieux faire", it means... a compliment in the teachers' minds! They're saying "you've got potential, we know we can expect more from you, and your progress shows that you're able to do it, so go for it, show us, and get the 14 we KNOW you're able to get!!" Except French teachers don't write like that. :-)

The best you can hope for is "bien" with no other comments.

The "negative" comments are meant to show where your son is supposed to improve. The "positive" comments are there underneath: where there's no negative comment, it means he's doing well and his teachers are thinking "good job!" or "kudos!" For example if the teacher comments on learning lessons and 'redaction', it means spelling and conjugation have improved, that the child IS learning is lessons just not regularly enough, that the compositions are coming into their own but lacking compared to his native classmates...

Perhaps you can "re-read" the bulletin de 2e trimestre with your son, using these "keys", it may cheer him up. ;-)

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[quote user="Tourangelle"]
well if we are being pedantic, a kid who has good enough marks to take a bac S will often do so even if they do better none scientific subjects.  It is mad, but they all want to do S, it drives me up the wall, but it is a question of "prestige"
[/quote]

I've got a case of that at the moment. An excellent pupil who actually prefers the "L" subjects but no-one wants to hear that. Her parents and nearly all the teachers are pushing her to take an "S" option next year. The logic being that if at the end of 2nde she wants to switch from ISI to theatre, she can, but the reverse would be difficult. The attitude seems to be if you can do "S" then you ought to, even if you don't actually want to. It's always been like that, the old bac C had far more prestige compared to A.

 

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Thanks everyone, very interesting, although my head is going round and round a bit. Glad we're not into all that yet. But hearing people talk about their children being 'in the top 3 in their class' or whatever made me wonder whether children are given a class ranking (like you are 15th in the class, or whatever)? I think that would be motivating for the top ones and demotivating for the bottom ones.

The thing about moyennes doesn't seem as bad as I thought - it's an average score, rather than a question of being 'above average' or 'below average'.

All sounds rather a grind though. Is there any room for the joy of learning? People in the UK are complaining about over-assessment and test-driven learning - is that a criticism that should apply to France too?

Jo

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Here's an example to mull over, I know I can't get my head around it !

Daughter and another class member forgot a book last Friday for one of

the days lessons and the teacher (I say that but seriously wonder what

other word would be more appropiate) gave them 20 lines, she said to

ensure that they did not do so again. Fair enough you might think ? The

other girl has never done such a thing before and you can write on one

hand the number of times our girl has done the same, still not good

enough perhaps ?

Well just to say that our daughter is 21 and soon to be 22 and in her

Bac +2 year, those that worry now about their younger kids now, will

have no comfort in knowing that it does not get any easier or somewhat

more mature later on.

Judge this against our son who went back to the UK for Uni and who

meets up now and again with one of his lecturers on Friday nights and

like the other kids, is generally on first names with the other tutors

they have. Treat mature students like children and all respect is lost,

why those teachers that act like that and think it to be correct is

beyond my comprehension.

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[quote user="Jo53"]

 Is there any room for the joy of learning? People in the UK are complaining about over-assessment and test-driven learning - is that a criticism that should apply to France too?

[/quote]

I think the joy of learning isn't a widely-known concept in French education.  The teachers teach.  The children learn.  It's really quite clinical. 

Yes, everything is down to tests (contrôles), which are regular and often, and the marks of which are used to calculate the child's moyenne.  

And you know, the days are just too long.  I know, French people say "but it prepares them for adult life and working", but, you know, that'll arrive soon enough, and it would be nice for them to have a bit of fun beforehand!   I know my son is just soooooo tired after a few weeks at school, there's just no letup at all.

Never mind, eh?  Worse things happen in C. 

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You me and miki live in France,and we all know that the french way,ie schooling until the age of 24 and more is a load ...now add to that the CPE,the first chance and I will send my kids back to the UK once they reach 16(or if I could the USA)Today as just made that much easier,the french could save the world if they stopped using so much paper.
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[quote user="le bouffon"]You me and miki live in France,and we all know

that the french way,ie schooling until the age of 24 and more is a load

...now add to that the CPE,the first chance and I will send my kids

back to the UK once they reach 16(or if I could the USA)Today as just

made that much easier,the french could save the world if they stopped

using so much paper.[/quote]

Yes we do but joy of joys, not all together eh  [:D]

The alternative is what, to send them back to the UK you say, isn't

that the place that you two can't stand the sight of but it now seems

it might be OK to send the kids back....cruel or what ! Daughter stays

on in education, living with her boyfriend, so claims the bourse

herself, happy that she can avoid work for as long as possible, whilst

working towards the necessary qualifications and all to avoid working

with chickens, pigs or aagggghhhh, manning the tills. Can't see

anything wrong with that really !

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Having just read through all of the posts on this subject I would like to offer my bit.  I have 3 kids at school in France.  So far the system seems to be working.  My two youngest would both be about to take their SATS had they been in the UK.  From earlier experiences with my daughter its all a bit of a stressful time.  I think taking regular controles is good.  It means the kids can be monitored, ie checking they have actually understood what they have been doing for the past couple of weeks.  Also, as they are so frequent its not such a 'big thing'.  Some kids in the UK and parents have sleepless nights before the tests.  I know which I prefer.

And as for the day being too long, well compared to the UK I don't think its any different.  When you take into consideration the 90 min lunch break and the 3 rest periods, is about the same.  Perhaps from leaving the house to returning home is longer, but as for actual classroom time I think its comparable.

Dotty

Dotty

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[quote user="Dotty0"]

And as for the day being too long, well compared to the UK I don't think its any different.  When you take into consideration the 90 min lunch break and the 3 rest periods, is about the same.  Perhaps from leaving the house to returning home is longer, but as for actual classroom time I think its comparable.

[/quote]

What 3 rest periods!   They get one 10-minute break in the morning, and one 10-minute break in the afternoon.  It's hardly enough time find your friends in a courtyard with 800 other pupils!

It's a long day.  It's a working day!  Children have things called attention spans, beyond which study is not effective.  But it's the way the system is, and I think it definitely knocks something out of them (like independent thinking), so they stay conservative in dress and everything else, so it serves a larger, societal purpose. 

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3 rest periods sounds good. Is this primary or secondary?

My kids just have the two standard breaks, in primary/maternelle it's at least 20 minutes but in collège it's 15 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the afternoon (not long enough to cool your coffee down) The primary/maternelle two have 2 hours at lunchtime and the collège one has 1 hour 20. I once worked in a collège with a 2 hour lunch break. it was sooo long (the reason was it gave kids who lived a long way from the school time to walk home, have lunch and then walk back- the idea that they might have to stay to lunch wasn't considered) The day started at 8 and ended at 5pm, then they had to go home and start on their homework.

The working time may not be any longer than in the UK calculated over a week (especially if you take Wednesday/Saturday half days into account) But the days are long. For those who stay to the cantine they can mean 10 hours out of the house.

 

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My two youngest go to Primary school.  The start at 9.00am and finish 4.30pm.  They only have school 4 days a week, having all day Wednesday off.  So their time at school works out to 30 hours per week.  In the UK they had a 6 hour day, 5 days a week, so its exactly the same.  They have one 20 min breadk in the morning and two 10 min breaks in the afternoon.  I think they are for leg stretching and a bit of fresh air.

My daughter is at college her day is 8.5 hours long.  I have since found out she has two rest periods and not three.  Two 15 mins morning and afternoon with a 95 min lunch break.  She only attends school for half a day on Wednesdays.  However, most of Thursday afternoon is spent partaking in soprts clubs.  They have a choice of Judo and rugby at the moment. 

None of my children have complained or even commented on the length of the day.  Fortunately we only live 4 km from the school, so don't have a long commute.  We know some kids though that are out for 10 hours a day.  But it just seems the norm and don't appear to mind.

Dotty

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