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Worries for 16 year old settling in France


Tricia
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We have a 16 year old son who has just finished his GCSEs and a 10 year old daughter who is about to do her 11+.  We are considering moving to France and wonder what advice anyone could give who have had similar age children and done the same?  We have not done this spur of the moment, but have been considering for a couple of years now.  My husband would work in England and come home every third weekend for a week and be home for 4 months out of the year during Winter months, so myself and the two children would be in France most of the time by ourselves.  It is very daunting, but we believe that the way of life would be wonderful for the children and give them many opportunities.  England is slowly running out of them!  Are we being realistic or are we being foolish?!  We are learning French here in England  so that we have some knowledge of the language before we go.  Any experience/advice from an independent source would be listened to.  Thank you.Tricia. This is our first time on the Forum so please excuse any errors we may have made.   

 

 

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Sorry Tricia, the "way of life" may be wonderful for the children (if you are considering a move to rural France though, they may be bored to tears), but what opportunities are there for a 16 year old who doesn't speak much French? He wouldn't be able to progress to HE and how would he get a job?

It's harsh, but you may have to wait. It seems to me that there are far more opportunities for 16 year olds in the UK than there are in France.

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What is your time scale on this? Are you planning on moving shortly or in a few years' time? Also, what is your son doing after his GCSEs and how long will he need to do it? I think we need more information to be able to give opinions.
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I think quite a lot of people that leave the UK, because they are fed up with the way things are going, tend to move for the wrong reasons.  If you want to move to France it should be because you love things French and not because you hate things English.

I have lived here with my family for the past year and I still love living in France, however it hasn't been without its problems.

Why have you chosen France to move to?

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[quote user="zeb"]Sorry Tricia, the "way of life" may be wonderful for the children (if you are considering a move to rural France though, they may be bored to tears), but what opportunities are there for a 16 year old who doesn't speak much French? He wouldn't be able to progress to HE and how would he get a job? It's harsh, but you may have to wait. It seems to me that there are far more opportunities for 16 year olds in the UK than there are in France.[/quote]

Zeb is correct, 16 years old with no fluent french in either speaking or writing is not good as the kids are going on to their chosen Lycée and career qualifications at that age and you do need those primaire and collège years to prepare you for that. I posted a thread earlier this year about an english girl being thrown straight into my son's Lycée without so much as bonjour in french and the teachers had no idea what to do with her, the family eventually went back to the UK a few weeks later. In your shoes, I would let the kids finish their UK education and then decide about moving, life here is not easy and unemployment high with emphasis on qualifications passed to get anywhere decent.

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Hi Tricia

I am very interested in this thread and any advice that people might offer because I am in a similar boat (daughter nearly 11 and younger son nearly 15).  My trouble is that all my family want to go to France (apart from the eldest, who's at university) and - as much as I want to live in France myself - I am desperately trying to present to them all the possible disaster scenarios that might happen (not fitting in, boredom and depression, not being able to find a job...).  Both my husband and I love all things French so we would be OK, but my son simply wants to escape from London.  In the last 6 months he was mugged twice and had one of his eyes permanently damaged in an attack at school.  Try explaining to him that living in rural and tranquil place in France might not be better than living in London...

I wonder if there are ANY positive examples out there of teenagers who went to France, liked it, stayed and get on somehow?!  Please, please answer - even if it is to say: Go and get some sense, woman!

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It might be worth remembering at this point that moving to France doesn't necessarily mean moving to the middle of the countryside, despite what most people do. Even if you're fed up with city living and its problems, you don't need to go to the opposite extreme and live in the middle of nowhere. There are many small and medium size towns in France that would enable a family to have a complete change of pace without being bored out of their minds. There are also many other ways of moving out of London, without moving to France. Why do people always want to go to such extremes?

I hope that this hasn't come over as unhelpful; it's really intended to be a different slant on a problem.

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[quote user="KathyC"]

There are also many other ways of moving out of London, without moving to France. Why do people always want to go to such extremes?

I hope that this hasn't come over as unhelpful; it's really intended to be a different slant on a problem.

[/quote]

The only reason why we might want to move to France and not to Darlington, for example, is that we have a house in a lovely village in the South! 

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Hi

We moved to the Charente last August and have 3 children.  We had talked about moving here for several years but my eldest didn't want to come. The eldest finished his GCSEs last year and through discussion with him and internet searching we found that there are about 30 state boarding schools in the UK and therefore you only pay for boarding.  These varied from very preppy to ordinary comprehensives.  My son was very keen to be independant and we liked the idea of him having some independance but still having someone looking after him.  He got a place at the school of his choice in Lincoln and has just finished his AS year.  He's very happy, has matured and is very adept at catching trains and planes.  He comes out every holiday and his train tickets are always more than the airfare.

Our other 2 were 9 and 10 and knew little french but have amazed us with how fast they learnt and how well they have settled. Both have moved forward with their peers and the eldest is off to college in September.

This is a solution that worked for us.  We felt that the younger children had to start a French education whilst still at primary school as I think its much harder to adapt as a teenager.  I definately wouldn't bring a 16 year old as the education system is very dry, career options start at 15, unemployment is high and fluency in french is essential.

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As a parent of twins who have left school this year having completed their 'A' levels, looking back it would not have been feasible to move our children between GSCE and A levels to another country with a different education system and language, without taking an enormous risk to them succesfully completing their education. 

If your son was not planning going on to some form of further education, then the chances of him finding work in France would be slim as youth unemployment is very high. Alternatively, if he wishes to continue in education, if I recall correctly from a previous similar thread on this forum, there is no guarantee you would be able to get him into a suitable French school as he is beyond the age of compulsory state education and therefore the French schools would not be compelled to offer him a place.

Presumably, if your son is staying on for further education he will be going back to school in England shortly and by the time you have planned any move he will be well into the school year, so you would only be delaying by 18months or less if you waited for him to complete in June 2008?

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[quote user="davieszak"][quote user="KathyC"]

There are also many other ways of moving out of London, without moving to France. Why do people always want to go to such extremes?

I hope that this hasn't come over as unhelpful; it's really intended to be a different slant on a problem.

[/quote]

The only reason why we might want to move to France and not to Darlington, for example, is that we have a house in a lovely village in the South! 

[/quote]

Yes, but you could move out of London (preferably not Darlington!) and still have a home in a French village; alternatively you could sell your village home and buy something in a town for permanent living. The comment about extremes wasn't aimed particularly at you, it was more general and meant to encourage the OP to consider all options.

The type of property people buy as a holiday home doesn't always make it suitable as a permanent base. If you had a second home in the UK it might be a pretty cottage in Cornwall where you wouldn't dream of settling permanently. (It also works the other way. We've bought a house to live in permanently that's quite unsuitable as a holiday home. As our move has been delayed by 6/9 months, I'm totally bored with visiting it for holidays, but really looking forward to living in it permanently.)

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On the subject of the difficulty of learning a new language at 16, while it's true that a teenager will not become as easily fluent as a younger child in as short a period of time, it's not by all means impossible. If he's motivated and keen to learn it, then why not?
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I moved out with an almost 14yr old, an 11yr old and a 1yr old 3 and something years ago...and moved from central London to the middle of nowhere...It wasn't always easy for them and they have been held back but they have also 'got there' My eldest is very settled now and finally off to lycee this year. I think we were quite lucky with the school the big children went to as the school went out of their way to provide language classes...that and my kids are soooooo nice that they made friends quite easily and picked up 'real' French that way....we don't have any regrets but only the individual knows how their own particular family will adjust. Interesting challenge for one could be absolute nightmare for another...I have known families for whom it didn't work and they are back in England now. 
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Thank you to everyone who replied to my original post.  Let me tell you about my son. He is 16 and has just achieved a B Grade GCSE in French.  So he is not without some knowledge of the language.  Your comments about getting into school are very interesting to me, it has made me think that it would not be easy to get him into the education system.    We do not live in a big city, we do not live in the country, we are in Lincolnshire.  I do not like the idea of leaving him in England to finish his schooling, though we do have an elder son, 20 and an elder daughter, married and 23, who would still be in England.  We were thinking about moving to France by January 2007.  We have found a house we like, near to schools, which have English pupils and English speaking teachers.  I know priority cannot be in English, we will be in France.  My daughter is 10 and learning French in school.  We are not just "fed up" with English life, but want a life for ourselves and our family.  My son does not know what he wants to do after leaving education.  Are there any positive points about doing such a move that anyone has achieved?  I know that it remains with the individual, and each individual is different.  Tricia    
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[quote user="Tricia"]My son does not know what he wants to do after leaving education.    [/quote]

Sorry to repeat a question but what is your son doing next month? I appreciate he doesn't know what he wants to do after leaving education (whenever that will be) but I assume that he hasn't just left school with no college place, no training place, no job, nothing. If he has no plans at this short notice, he doesn't sound as though he's going to be terribly well motivated to make a go of a new life in a foreign country. Without wanting to belittle his recent exam results, GCSE French (at any grade) doesn't represent any great grasp of the language, either grammatically or as an ability to communicate. He'll be moving to a country where he can't communicate, has missed a year of education and isn't able to take up any opportunities open to French young people. it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Whilst not being an expert on the situation of young people in France, I'm a Careers Adviser here in the UK and , unless I've missed something, your son could be heading for difficulties in either country.

Good luck.

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What does your son want to do in the future?  If he wants to on to

futher or higher education, it's going to put him at a severe

disadvantage to switch educational systems now, never mind the language

difficulties.    Would it not be worth staying in the UK

for another two years and him do his A levels?  At least then he

has a basic level  of education behind him, rather than throwing

him into a completely different system at one of the key stages of his

education.  I'm sure there are happy stories from people who moved

their kids at sixteen, but surely its a bit of a gamble, and your kid

is the one who might ultimately lose.

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Although I agree with the previous posters I'd put it more brutally than that.  I think a 16 year old arriving in France with GCSE French (ie the bare minimum) is going to suffer.  If you get him into school, he wont be able to follow with GCSE French. He wont be able to write French to anywhere near the required standard, so he wont be able to do a general bac, and he wont get into the good training programmes because they fill up quickly.  Nobody will employ him if he can't speak French and he will find it very hard.  Your only option is an international school or leaving him behind, or, I suppose, if he is very bright, seeing if he sinks or swims at school.  But he will lose years that way as they will not put him into premiere - lower sixth, but into seconde- year 11 at the most.

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Hi Tricia,

We came over here just over four years ago with our boys aged 16, 13 and 1.  The 16 year old is very bright indeed, had a B grade GCSE in french (along with 9 other good grade GCSE's) but he just could not hack it here.  He did one year here at a so called bilingual school (no pastoral care, no consideration for english pupils etc) then went back to the UK but did not like it there either.  He IS a difficult boy, and is now back in the UK looking for work because there is NO work here for him.  Total disaster all round.

Second son stuck it out, redoubled 4eme, and went on to Lycée.  He has just done seconde, can go on to Premiere, but has decided not to, as he really does not want to do all the subjects.  He has gone back to the UK to live with his brother and do his A levels.  Not a disaster on his part, but just not suited to him.  He wants to go on to Film School afterwards which requires three grade B A levels in an art subject, a science or maths subject and one other.  So he is doing Art, French in a year, Maths and Physics.  He just would not have got the art here that he needs and is very excited to be starting school in the UK next week.  Fingers crossed for him.

The little one is just going into CP but because he knows his brothers have gone back to the UK, guess what?  He keeps saying he wants to go!  When he gets to sixth form age I may well consider letting him do it if he can stay with one of his brothers or his sister.  They are much older than him and that may well work.  It depends on what he turns out like.

I like the french system as I think it does teach well, but it is very very rigid, and if you don't conform to the norm, you can get severly disadvantaged by it.  They like to tell you what subjects to do, unlike in the UK where you get to choose.  A bit more choice and it would improve greatly and leave the UK standing.  I know the bac is supposed to be so desirable, but a huge number of french kids fail it every year, and my friend's son (french and very bright) is only just starting terminale now after redoubling both seconde and premiere!  How dispiriting can this be?  FIVE years in Lycée and he is not the exception.  His english, for example is brilliant, but he gets bad marks because it is written as he speaks, and not absolutely the way they want.  My own son actually got marked down in english for not replying exactly as the teacher wanted, which was by no means always right!

My advice for your son is let him stay in the UK.  Okay, it will be a wrench for you, but you will RUIN his chances by taking him to France.  There are few opportunities except in factories doing yucky jobs like gutting turkeys and rabbits for unqualified kids, and they will not consider GCSE's as qualifications at all.  And basically, a french GCSE nowadays is not worth the paper it is written on.  It in NO way prepares a kid for french school!  He might just as well have learnt mandarin for all the good it will do him. 

I can tell you that my daughter who is 22 did french A level as well, and then a french degree and NONE of that is anything like daily life in France!  She can talk about ecology, pollution and the environment etc (A level subjects), and medieval french literature (all the essays written in english by the way!) but how would that help her chatting to the locals? 

Don't do it to him.  I speak from experience. 

Sorry to sound so morose about it.  I do like it here, really!

Fil

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Fil,

How awful it all seems to see it in black and white. A few of us for

some years used to warn and warn again, about the exact same problems

that you talk of. But all too often we would get posts back that said

how well little Johnny and Samantha were doing in Primaire and

college...none of it to do, or even resembling, the later school and

work life that would eventually fall upon their kids.

Our second son come over here to try life in France, he did not so much

detest it but really could not find any decent work, if much at all. Our youngest son went almost

all the way through school from Primaire to Lycée, he too could find

nothing suitable for work and so went back to Uni in the UK, where he

finds himself far betteroff  than he ever would have done

here.(It's why so many young French find work in the UK, in fact he has

a few French friends where he lives) We now have just our Daughter with

us here (but living with her boyfriend)  in her Bac + 2 year and

as she is far more French than English. In fact she sees her life here

as quite normal and never thinks about what the UK might or might not

be, regardless of what her Brothers think.

So yes, to anyone, do think twice about bringing kids here, especially

those who have entered teenage years and more especially those that who

don't even want to come to France, they will always hanker for their

friends and the grass is greener syndrome, rather like the parents in reverse in fact.

I think your post should be a sticky, to let any newcomers see, that

there is most certainly another side of the coin,  that really

needs deep and serious thought as to how a family with a similar set up

may well find itself having the very same problems over here. All too

often we hear "well the kids will go where they want to in the end" Yes

they will but will you be able to live with a family split far and wide

and with an education matched mainly to France and in many cases with

damned awful English written, which WILL certainly be a hindrance in

their search for work. That is unless they do go ALL the way through

Uni or Lycée and do indeed have English to match their UK counterpart

and I am afraid that is rare indeed. In fact, you can  probably

count on one hand the number of members on here, whose kids have done

exactly that and now have good jobs here gained through a Bac + 2 or 3 etc.

[
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Miki & Fil - If the original poster isn't able to, I would like to thank you for taking the time to post your experiences - all you others too.  Considering how often this very subject comes up, I wish there was some sub-category under Education where people could immediately go to read past threads (few seem to search).  I have received personal requests for information on this subject too.  I try to offer info. from our own experiences with our daughter, but as has been said, each child is different, each school, each teacher, etc., etc., etc.

We have had a great experience, but our daughter was 7 when she arrived here and had already attended two years in a private French school in California.  When I asked her (she is almost 13 now) what she thought of bringing an older, say 14 or older child - who spoke little or no French here to attend school, a look of horror came over her face. 

Best of luck to the op.  I hope they weigh all their options.

 

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I know the Bac is supposed to be so desirable, but a huge number of french kids fail it every year

Perhaps thats because they are testing knowledge rather than handing out stars for effort. At least the Bac has not sunk to the ridiculous UK level where you can get Grade A with a mark of less than 50%.

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That's a new one on me.

What level of examination are you referring to, and please, a link/reference to where you learnt this?

For Tricia: No, I haven't done what you propose to do. Nor would I ever have done so, no matter how good my french was, or how bright my son was.

I waited until my son was 24 before moving here. He still felt 'orphaned'. That was a surprise to me, and yet strangely it still amazes me when I hear people (not you, Tricia, this is a wider point) say that once a child is 16/17/18 then that's 'it'.  Much  as it used to amaze me when Students parent would ring me, to warn me that they were divorcing in the first year of their son/daughter being at UNI and say 'we waited till s/he had left...'  as if that would be OK for the 'child' then....

This may seem harsh, but I have seen a couple of situations arise here, quite hairy and damaging situations.  People with 15/16/17 year olds who have hated it here, and hated their parents for doing it to them. The whole family has fractured as a result, with much younger siblings taking the part of the older ones, and the whole family have to de-camp back to the UK

I think generally, this is a move for people who are unencumbered, or with children under  (roughly) 10 years old depending on how much intensive private tuition people can afford, or whether they can afford an International School.

.

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