Moving with a reluctant teen? - views welcome

[Wendy]

BP I have to say this re: your post from the 24th; all local rural types we know tend to have a rather 'low' opinion of Parisian's at any rate. And we are as far removed from Paris as you can be in France. Not sure why though,  I always thought that 'liberte, egalite, fraternite' existed amongst all the French. Obviously not; so why should those same folk be entirely 'welcoming' to us newcomers?. The locals have, yes; the local education administration, though, were not. And this is why I say to the OP Di; if it ain't broke don't try and fix it.  If she's happy where she is then leave her there. France does not suit everyone, and there is no rule that it should/must, and I stand by that. At least you have some facts now as to 'for' and 'against'.

 

[Tourangelle]

Panda's right, house prices are going down according to newspapers like "les echos".

Although many dismiss Jura as a bit of a whinger, she make a vital point.  School is not obligatory after 16, that is the law, and they don't have to take your child. Especially a child who has GCSEs and therefore has completed a "cycle".  Just as an anecdote, my husband has a new girl in his class, in 3eme, he says no way is she 14, as she claims.  He's really experienced, he'd know, and thinks she is at least 17.  But the family has just moved over from the Ivory Coast, if she is over 16, she'd get no schooling.  So it is an issue here, that people thinking of moving older children over should be aware of.

[Just Katie]

[quote user="Tourangelle"]Panda's right, house prices are going down according to newspapers like "les echos".

Although many dismiss Jura as a bit of a whinger, she make a vital point.  School is not obligatory after 16, that is the law, and they don't have to take your child. Especially a child who has GCSEs and therefore has completed a "cycle".  Just as an anecdote, my husband has a new girl in his class, in 3eme, he says no way is she 14, as she claims.  He's really experienced, he'd know, and thinks she is at least 17.  But the family has just moved over from the Ivory Coast, if she is over 16, she'd get no schooling.  So it is an issue here, that people thinking of moving older children over should be aware of.
[/quote]

If it is an issue, why dont they check her passport?

[Tourangelle]

I guess it says she's 14!  The issue is that at 16, as Jura has pointed out, you will be politely shown the door, and I think that it is really important that the OP with her 16 year old bears that in mind.  I'm not suggesting she should pretend her child is younger!

[woolybanana]

Many years ago I worked birefly at a school for newly arrived immigrants in Brimingham. The number of kids claiming to be under 15 was amazing when it was clear to all that they were not. But they too also had "papers" to "prove" their age.

[Wendy]

They don't check passports on enrolling in schools here. And for the record, girls from African countries can be twelve and yet look 18. Its the equatorial climate you see; they mature at a very young age with many being married off and having babies before they are 15. It's the same with indigenous Australian females. What experience does your husband have to know that a young girl is not 14?.

While school here is not obligatory after the age of 16, that also means that schools are not obliged to accept you after that age. Regardless of what you want. While the UN recognises the rights of all children to an education up until the age of 18, the French do not. This is one more thing you would not have known until you moved here. Like us.

Yep...still whingin'.

 

 

[Tourangelle]

He's been a teacher for nearly 20 years in various suburbs of Paris and Lyon and she's far from being the first pupil he's had who's come from an African nation.  But hey, he could be wrong, what do I know, he told me this the day before yesterday, because she had just arrived and he was looking up the town she had said she came from because he didn't know it (professional pride, he's a geography teacher).  He also said it wasn't his problem, which it isn't, but it is why what you were saying about not being entitled to schooling after 16 hit a chord with me.  I think it is important that people realise this, and especially for the OP who is thinking of coming with a 16 year old.  You're right, they don't check passports, or id cards, because any child of school age (6-16 just to repeat myself) is entitled to go, whatever their nationality.  

[woolybanana]

[quote user="Jura"]

They don't check passports on enrolling in schools here. And for the record, girls from African countries can be twelve and yet look 18. Its the equatorial climate you see; they mature at a very young age with many being married off and having babies before they are 15. It's the same with indigenous Australian females. What experience does your husband have to know that a young girl is not 14?.

While school here is not obligatory after the age of 16, that also means that schools are not obliged to accept you after that age. Regardless of what you want. While the UN recognises the rights of all children to an education up until the age of 18, the French do not. This is one more thing you would not have known until you moved here. Like us.

Yep...still whingin'.

[/quote]

Sorry jura, I've too have experience of forged papers. Your arguement about young African women is really patronizing and racist if you wish. No, they have forged papers to get what they want or need. it is part of a culture to survive in Europe

[Scooby]

OK - maybe I'm being stupid here but...how can saying people of different ethnic backgrounds show their age earlier / later is racially biased whereas accusing certain ethnic groups of forging documentation isn't...?

Confused....

[woolybanana]

Forging documents to get what you want is not a racist thing at all. It is a question of getting something. Like the people who were taught what to say to immigration when claiming asylum, or the groups who added extra kids to their families to get benefits. ... (I speak with some experience). Hell, there are that many Brits in France on the fiddle too... Nothing to do with ethnicity, just criminality really.

[Bones]

And for the record, girls from African countries can be twelve and yet

look 18. Its the equatorial climate you see; they mature at a very

young age with many being married off and having babies before they are

15. It's the same with indigenous Australian females. What experience

does your husband have to know that a young girl is not 14?.

-------------------------------------------------------------

That's very interesting.

You state that your comments are "for the record", perhaps you'd like to provide a source because I'm sure there will be many here who might suspect that you are presenting opinion as fact. I'm pretty sure that any girl/boy can look older/younger than she/he actually is, regardless of their ethnicity or "climate" and I'm sceptical as to whether there exists any reliable studies of geographical anomalies. Are there biological changes following childbirth that grossly affect an adolescent's physical appearance or are we talking general demeanour here; if so could you detail the salient features? Are these effects confined to "indigenous Australian females" and "girls from African countries" or are they apparent also in young girls from other continents/ethnic backgrounds?

[Bones]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Many years ago I worked birefly at a school for newly arrived immigrants in Brimingham. The number of kids claiming to be under 15 was amazing when it was clear to all that they were not. But they too also had "papers" to "prove" their age.[/quote]

Those lousy proof providing papers, eh?!

This is why I'm all for unbridled immigration. Here we have a group of kids whose parents are pushing them to learn, whilst so many of our kids take education for granted and prefer happy slapping their way through adolescence.

A truly heart warming anecdote, must have been a highly rewarding teaching experience for you.

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="Bones"]

This is why I'm all for unbridled immigration. Here we have a group of kids whose parents are pushing them to learn, whilst so many of our kids take education for granted and prefer happy slapping their way through adolescence.

[/quote]

Now that is a good point! During the mid to

late 1980's when I was just but a scruffy little urchin, one of the mottos that

used to appear with high frequency on the banners of assorted student demos was

"Education is a Right Not a Privilege." Actually some of them spelt

it “privilage”, but that’s by-the-by.

I used to go along to meet new people as

most of the most passionate brandishers of said banners were unfamiliar faces

not generally seen in the dull environs of a lecture theatre, and it did rather

occur to me that the motto was complete rot.

Even if it is offered free, offered by

right and offered to all, an education is still a privilege

[raindog]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"][quote user="Bones"]

This is why I'm all for unbridled immigration. Here we have a group of kids whose parents are pushing them to learn, whilst so many of our kids take education for granted and prefer happy slapping their way through adolescence.

[/quote]

Now that is a good point! During the mid to

late 1980's when I was just but a scruffy little urchin, one of the mottos that

used to appear with high frequency on the banners of assorted student demos was

"Education is a Right Not a Privilege." Actually some of them spelt

it “privilage”, but that’s by-the-by.

I used to go along to meet new people as

most of the most passionate brandishers of said banners were unfamiliar faces

not generally seen in the dull environs of a lecture theatre, and it did rather

occur to me that the motto was complete rot.

Even if it is offered free, offered by

right and offered to all, an education is still a privilege

[/quote]

I agree with this - that's why my blood boils when a minority of spoilt French students "go on strike" and block the universities to those who want to get on with their studies.

[Wendy]

Bones, for gods sake, I never used the words 'for the record' in quotes, you did. I never used those words at all. Whats-her-name (Tourangelle?) simply stated earlier that her husband was 'experienced' and could tell if a girl was 14 or not. Personally, as a female I can not guess the correct age of many young females these days!.  My ex-husband, and the father of my three elder sons, is from an African country. I can tell you now that his sisters were all capable of producing babies before the age of eleven. When I first met them they were in their mid-teens but two could have passed for young women over 20. Just do a bit of research; the closer to the equator you are, the earlier puberty strikes. African females are well documented for reaching puberty at an early age.

This is not racist at all, it is simple biology. This also applies to young females from the South American countries. If you prefer, I can outline the 'salient features' identifying a pubescant female...but are you really that ignorant?.

Hmmm[Www].

 

 

[Wendy]

However, this topic should not become an 'underwear' thing. My son was 16, and 6ft 2, when we took him to the local college in 2004 for enrolment. Their argument against his enrolment was not only that he could speak very little French, but that he was 'too tall, had red hair and would not really fit in with the local Catalan teens'. These last words, in quotes, came from a male from the local MLI who came to the college especially to see our son that day. Yep, an Aussie kid, well nourished and raised by the equator. But too mature looking for local French standards. 

If it wasn't all so stupid I would laugh. Maybe one day I will[:-))] But not so far.

[Frenchie]

My son is a French boy, 13 and a half , 1m76 now, looking 16 or 17..

And we don't live near the tropics... [;-)]

[Iceni]

Better not take him to Australia then Frenchie, there might be a reciprocal revenge arrangement particularly if he can't speak Australian.

John

not

[woolybanana]

Probably do him good.[6]

[Frenchie]

Though he loves the Uk, he wouldn't even move there so Australia.....    LOL ....

PS : I have an Australian student in one of my classes, he s the sweetest boy on earth .

[woolybanana]

Why not go to Oz, great place? What is your son scared of losing.

I taught University students in Belgium for twelve years and spent some time trying to find out why some would not move from their patelin. They were always the worst, the most closed, the mindless ones who wanted a soft job with no challenges. I am happy to say that many did get off their backsides and are now round the world. Make your boy see this and he may go somewhere?

[Frenchie]

I agree with you, students are often too " coinçés dans leur patelin" as you said.. Just because they re afraid of the unknown, I assume.

When I was young, I wanted to see the world, and I ve travelled.

I have to admit some people are different.

My son wouldn't move first because his dad is here. ( we re divorced.)

In the UK he would be scared not to be able to make friends cos of the language; he might not be fluent in 6 months, as you well know.......

I guess if I move, Ill wait for him to be independant.

[Simon]

Hi Di,

Thought I might tell you of my experience as I've been on both sides, as a teenager taken to France and as a parent who has thought of moving to France with children.

As a fifteen year old, I moved to France with my Mother and brother and two sisters in 1974 for three years. We moved to Angers and the boys were sent to the local boys school and the girls to the local girls school. Because of our lack of French, we were moved down a year, and what with being tall for our age (over 6ft) we really stood out and found it difficult to make real friends at school. I was lucky in that my French teacher took an interest in me and gave me extra french lessons after school as well as extra homework, which I hated at the time. After 18 months, I moved to the local university which ran French courses as a foreign language for foreign students.  Now I was the baby of the class, and looking back I had a pretty wicked time for the next 18 months, and learnt some more French along the way as well..

However my brother, who was thirteen at the time of the move, spent three years at the school and never really mastered the language. At the time of our departure, his only friend was an elderly gardener who worked nearby and kept bees, my brother spent a lot of time with him and his bees. We used to tease him and ask how they commuicated and whether the old man spoke English. 

One sister had a similar experience to me at school while the other, who was 10 when we moved was fluent in six months, and was always taken to be French.

Looking back over 30 years now, that three years was the best years for our family, we had no television and we spent a lot of time together. My older sister and I often wonder what if....on our return to Scotland, either of us were able to get back into education, perhaps we just use France as an excuse? My younger sister went on to get a degree in languages from Edinburgh Univercity, Spanish and Russian as well as French. My brother never went back to school and is now a wealthy property developper and still keeps bees!!

The moral of the story is that we are all different, one child may love the experience while the other hates it. Personnally, I'm really pleased to have got the opportunity to experience living in a different culture and feel that I benefitted from it greatly. Whether I felt that way at the time is a different matter, I do seem to remember it as one long adventure.

As a parent, I have often considered moving to France with the children, however I would only do it if they were under 10 years old. Having missed that window I am now waiting until they have completed school.  Then much to my wife pleasure, we will make the full time move!

[Just Katie]

Hello Simon,

I think this is the most sensible answer on this thread.  I really enjoyed reading your words.  The snippet you have provided us with reminds me of Darling Buds Of May.  It is of course a very delicate matter and each child must be treated individually.

[Rose]

[quote user="Simon"]

One sister had a similar experience to me at school while the other, who was 10 when we moved was fluent in six months, and was always taken to be French.

... The moral of the story is that we are all different, one child may love the experience while the other hates it. Personnally, I'm really pleased to have got the opportunity to experience living in a different culture and feel that I benefitted from it greatly. Whether I felt that way at the time is a different matter, I do seem to remember it as one long adventure.

[/quote]

Hi Simon... your response moved me!  I moved with an 8 year old in August and I hope he too shares your feelings as he gets older... thank you so much!