Moving with a reluctant teen? - views welcome

[Eos]

I asked my teenage daughter about this post.

She too would be a reluctant teen if we were to move ANYWHERE right now.

She's a bright girl who speaks French quite well and, as is common with most of us, understands a little more than she might be able to say. We have many French friends so that wouldn't be an issue and she's also very familiar with our area of the country and would know some of the teachers in the local secondary school.

She's about to do her first set of public exams next summer and therein lies the problem as she sees it. If we were to move, she would never know how far she could have gone with this system in which she has invested so heavily. Education is a bit of a game for her and she enjoys the whole process.

We have three years til she goes to uni, wherever that journey might take her. We missed the boat perhaps when we decided against a permanent move when we first bought our house in France five years ago. As those five years have passed so quickly though, we have three years til she goes to uni, wherever that journey might take us!!

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

We first considered moving to France when our eldest was 14. We decided not to disrupt his education at a fairly critical stage and then his brothers followed on so we decided to stay in the UK until our youngest was completely off our hands.

Language wasn't a problem -- my wife was French, all the boys fluent to bilingual and my French is good enough for work. If our circumstances had allowed us to move even two years earlier then it would have been very different.

[Wendy]

My sons were of school age when we came here, yet they were denied access to schooling when actually going to school would have helped them improve their french.  My son chooses to stay here and work at it; he wants to be with his family and continue trying to integrate here. He is learning French, he is looking for work. My other son hated France so chose to leave.

I support them both.

Di, take heed. Your daughter will have no future here going by the way she feels. And unless you profess a profound love of this country, no expat wherever you live will accept you either.

 

 

 

[Wendy]

Raindog, one other thing. We live just north of the Spanish border where the people prefer to speak english, catalan and french rather than Spanish. In Sweden the people in the majority learn a second langauge...english. And can function in such without any ill feeling. In Italy...well, they don't use their langauge as a tool to isolate newcomers like the French do. As we have found.

I can find a host of things to 'whinge' about France without bringing language into it. I pay a fortune in taxes here so I am entitled to express my opinions about France as a taxpayer in France[:)].

[Rose]

[quote user="Di"]

We are seriously considering moving to south-west France with a reluctant teen, when she finishes GCSE's at 16.

[/quote]

Hi Di - your questions seems to have prompted a rather heated exchange of views!  I've been watching with interest and usually just watch from the sidelines and say nothing rather than enter someone else's fight but... then I thought perhaps I would give you our view of France? [:)]

We've been here just 3 months and I have to say we have been surprised by the welcome we have received from neighbours, in our local village and our son's school.  We spoke enough French to get by when we arrived and it has improved 10 fold over the last 12 weeks!  We've been invited for drinks at each of our neighbours house, I've made a few friends at the school - even been for coffee with one mum and just this weekend we've been invited to a dinner party being organised by all 3 sets of our neighbours to welcome us to France... we've been overwhelmed by how kind everyone has been.   I'm sad to hear that Jura has had other experiences but I have to say we haven't found this?  maybe we're lucky?

My question to you would be... what does your daughter honestly feel about moving to France?  I think only you and she can decide what is right but if you're asking what others would do... I would wait.   Our son was 8 when we moved and we felt this was as old as he could be if we were to make the move... it we hadn't done it when we did we would have waited for retirement.  Some people would question if 8 was too old but thankfully he seems to be flourishing and we are confident we made the right decision.

Perhaps you should sit down with the family and make a big list of what you would gain from moving to France and what you would lose... I suspect at 16 your daughter would be losing quite a lot... but only she can tell you...

Finally, we started planning our move 18 months in advance and the time flew by... maybe waiting just a few more years wouldn't be so bad? [:$]

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="pale pink specs"][quote user="Di"]

We are seriously considering moving to south-west France with a reluctant teen, when she finishes GCSE's at 16.

[/quote]

Hi Di - your questions seems to have prompted a rather heated exchange of views! 

[/quote]

Only because Jura stuck her nose in..............................again.

[Rose]

[quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="pale pink specs"][quote user="Di"]

We are seriously considering moving to south-west France with a reluctant teen, when she finishes GCSE's at 16.

[/quote]

Hi Di - your questions seems to have prompted a rather heated exchange of views! 

[/quote]

Only because Jura stuck her nose in..............................again.

[/quote]

[:D] [:D] [:D]

[Eos]

[quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="pale pink specs"][quote user="Di"]

We are seriously considering moving to south-west France with a reluctant teen, when she finishes GCSE's at 16.

[/quote]

Hi Di - your questions seems to have prompted a rather heated exchange of views! 

[/quote]

Only because Jura stuck her nose in..............................again.

[/quote]

I know now, after posting in another thread and getting beaten about the head, that some of you seem to have had an unpleasant history with Jura. However, I feel that she is, like all the rest of us on this forum new or old, entitled to an opinion, especially as in this case views were asked for and her comments, extreme or otherwise, have a validity.

Right, I'm hitting post now having dithered for a good ten minutes or so!!

[raindog]

[quote user="Eos"][quote user="Bugbear"][quote user="pale pink specs"][quote user="Di"]

We are seriously considering moving to south-west France with a reluctant teen, when she finishes GCSE's at 16.

[/quote]

Hi Di - your questions seems to have prompted a rather heated exchange of views! 

[/quote]

Only because Jura stuck her nose in..............................again.

[/quote]

I know now, after posting in another thread and getting beaten about the head, that some of you seem to have had an unpleasant history with Jura. However, I feel that she is, like all the rest of us on this forum new or old, entitled to an opinion, especially as in this case views were asked for and her comments, extreme or otherwise, have a validity.

Right, I'm hitting post now having dithered for a good ten minutes or so!!

[/quote]

I've only been here a few weeks and i'm still getting to know the place (i've only really settled in on the rugby thread [:D]) But i've noticed that whenever jura's around she seems to rub people up the wrong way and sparks fly. I suspect there must have been some sort of altercation in the past that we newcomers aren't aware of.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Jura"]

Raindog, one other thing. We live just north of the Spanish border where the people prefer to speak english, catalan and french rather than Spanish. In Sweden the people in the majority learn a second langauge...english. And can function in such without any ill feeling. In Italy...well, they don't use their langauge as a tool to isolate newcomers like the French do. As we have found.

I can find a host of things to 'whinge' about France without bringing language into it. I pay a fortune in taxes here so I am entitled to express my opinions about France as a taxpayer in France[:)].

[/quote]

 

Jura

you are of course right there are many areas of Europe that are less progressive when it comes to speaking a foreign language.  12 years of living in Germany has taught me that many of the people I come across professionally not only can but want to speak English.  12 years of living in Germany has also taught me that once I break out of the "inteligencia", there is a vast raft of German people who speak no English at all - despite it having been taught in school.  And now I find France exactly the same, you can find many professional people who can and want to speak English, but out in the sticks (where we live) it's a struggle for any of them.  We did not expect any different and maybe that's why (despite our still appalling French) we seem to be accepted and folk take time out to explain things simply and slowly, maybe occasionally throwing in a half forgotten English word to help.

You have to go at least half way, and having no French and expecting the whole of France to come to your beck and call is not realistic.

 

But if you want the real sinner with regards shutting out foreigners wth their langauge - Try the UK.  Everyone learns at least one foreign language at school and how many can speak it later - even when they emigate??

 

 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="andyh4"]

you are of course right there are many areas of Europe that are less progressive when it comes to speaking a foreign language.  12 years of living in Germany has taught me that many of the people I come across professionally not only can but want to speak English.  12 years of living in Germany has also taught me that once I break out of the "inteligencia", there is a vast raft of German people who speak no English at all - despite it having been taught in school.  And now I find France exactly the same, you can find many professional people who can and want to speak English, but out in the sticks (where we live) it's a struggle for any of them. 

[/quote]

Seconded!

Once you're off the beaten track in Sweden (ie outside of the big towns) the number of people speaking English with any degree of fluency plumets. For the simple reason, of course, that they may have been pretty good when they were 18 but after 20 years where they've had little or no practice they forget it all. Just like France.

I was told that the Dutch "all speak English" when I moved there a few years ago. And professionals and those in service industries are pretty good. But try finding a plumber or mechanic who is fluent. They learn it, they don't practice it, they forget it.

[samdebretagne]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

For the simple reason, of course, that they may have been pretty good when they were 18 but after 20 years where they've had little or no practice they forget it all. Just like France.

[/quote]

Actually it's not really like in France at all since there aren't even very many young people that can speak passable English.

An example from an 18 year old lycée student I had today:

"  'ello, my name Philippe. I 'ave dix-neuf ans. I lie-vuh (city name).   I 'ave got one brothers, he name Pierre.  My 'obbies is foot and surf."

And that was from a kid who's been learning English for at least the past 8 years...

[Clair]

Sadly, I have to agree with Samdebretagne [:(]

I have been approached by several parents whose children are in dire need of help with their English studies.

They are due to sit their Bac next year. The level of fluency is very poor and they really struggle to string sentences together. Very very sad situation... [:(]

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="samdebretagne"][quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

For the simple reason, of course, that they may have been pretty good when they were 18 but after 20 years where they've had little or no practice they forget it all. Just like France.

[/quote]

Actually it's not really like in France at all since there aren't even very many young people that can speak passable English.

An example from an 18 year old lycée student I had today:

"  'ello, my name Philippe. I 'ave dix-neuf ans. I lie-vuh (city name).   I 'ave got one brothers, he name Pierre.  My 'obbies is foot and surf."

And that was from a kid who's been learning English for at least the past 8 years...

[/quote]

Fair point. But some of my nine-year-olds are stormin', so there may still be hope!

It's the same in the UK from what I hear - trying to find young people able to speak passable English can be pretty tough there too [;-)]

But I stand by what I say: I spent two years in Holland during which time I spoke Dutch pretty much all the time at work and outside. 15 years later I reckon I could just about order coffee in that language. I didn't use it and it evaporated.

Whatever help might be given in the UK to incomers is by-the-by: if you move to a different land you have got to expect to have to speak the local language.

[raindog]

[quote user="The Riff-Raff Element"]

Whatever help might be given in the UK to incomers is by-the-by: if you move to a different land you have got to expect to have to speak the local language.

[/quote]

Exactly. Or if you don't you're going to miss out on so much it would be a pretty miserable existance. Unless you only hang out with people from your own country, but then, what's the point of moving abroad?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Clair"]Sadly, I have to agree with Samdebretagne [:(]
I have been approached by several parents whose children are in dire need of help with their English studies.
They are due to sit their Bac next year. The level of fluency is very poor and they really struggle to string sentences together. Very very sad situation... [:(]
[/quote]I was asked to spend a few hours with the nephew of my neighbour opposite when he was sitting his bac' last year.  It was scary how utterly appalling his English was, given that at that stage he only had a couple of weeks to go before taking the exam'.  I had been under the impression that the bac' was A level standard but he certainly spoke English far worse than I spoke French at that age.  I do think rural areas have the most problems as there are so few people to converse with properly in other languages.  It's great for French learners here because it's sink or swim - but must be pretty tough the other way around.

[Kitty]

Di

I have moved to France with 4 children, 3 of whom were teenagers.  The older ones were not sure of the move. So what I did was this:

I rented a house for 4 months in the winter months (very cheap if you rent outside the holiday season) and I found places at a private school.  I did this using the internet.  For the house, I took a 2 week deal with an option to extend to 4 months if I liked the place.  I arrived, found the internet pictures did not live up to the reality and so moved house, again with a good deal as I was on the spot.

All the children enjoyed their time at the school - we found that they made friends easily as lots of young people want to learn English and their parents were encouraging the friendships.  So we house-hunted in the last month, found something and bought it. 

The teenagers now go to a technical school (ecole professionnel).  They will have bilingual qualifications.  We return to the UK every school holiday.  They have kept their best friends in the UK and, indeed, their friends are coming out to see us as they are now doing French 'A' levels and need language experience.

I would recommend this approach for everyone.  Rent somewhere for 4 months (or more) and try it first, with or without reluctant participants.

[Sigognac]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Clair"]Sadly, I have to agree with Samdebretagne [:(]
I have been approached by several parents whose children are in dire need of help with their English studies.
They are due to sit their Bac next year. The level of fluency is very poor and they really struggle to string sentences together. Very very sad situation... [:(]
[/quote]I was asked to spend a few hours with the nephew of my neighbour opposite when he was sitting his bac' last year.  It was scary how utterly appalling his English was, given that at that stage he only had a couple of weeks to go before taking the exam'.  I had been under the impression that the bac' was A level standard but he certainly spoke English far worse than I spoke French at that age.  I do think rural areas have the most problems as there are so few people to converse with properly in other languages.  It's great for French learners here because it's sink or swim - but must be pretty tough the other way around.[/quote]

 

There is quite a lot in this:

- English is compulsory for all, whereas I understand A levels are on a voluntary basis. I also think there are far too many subjects taught for the Bac, but that's another story.

- The French system does not encourage you to speak (bit of a hurdle for a foreign language...), and class numbers can reach 40 or more. In an ideal world, there should be language labs, and a native speaker somewhere, but in practice, there's rarely enough money. Therefore many will come out of the Lycée or even University with only a shaky grasp of spoken English, but might be able to discuss Shakespeare or some obscure grammatical point. All in all a problem of mass production rather than location. If it is any consolation, the teaching of German is even worse.

- I worked as a French language assistant for a couple of years in the UK, and the A Levels do vary greatly from one school to the other. Some were very good, others... I then taught adults and had the same problem.

[sunny]

Hello,

I must say I agree with Jura on this one - I come from a country where most expats/foreigners don't know the national language.  They, however, find jobs in the tourist industry, or in university/school settings teaching English.

I have been to many countries where I don't know the language - France is one of the few places where I have had locals give me attitude about not knowing their language.  I don't feel apologetic (as a lot of Brits seem to do).  I have met French people living in my country and they don't know my language - but I don't give them a hard time for that...

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[sunny]

and as a follow-up on my previous post, where i realize I didn't answer Di's question at all...

Di,  have you considered moving to a big city where they have an international school?  That way your daughter can be taught in English with expat/diplomat kids.  And I assume the top universities will have programs in English...? I am not being arrogant, but I have a friend's dad who is professor at one of the well-know French university and he speaks very little French....

And as for jobs, she could hop over to London if she can't find a decent one in France...not such a big deal is it...?

My advice is to move to a fairly big city, so your daughter has opportunities to mix with an international, cosmopolitan group...that way she can get used to the French lifestyle in small doses... 

[caramac]

[quote user="BP"]

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[/quote]

Extraordinary...[:(]

[raindog]

[quote user="caramac"][quote user="BP"]

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[/quote]

Extraordinary...[:(]

[/quote]

[:D][:D]

[Scooby]

[quote user="caramac"][quote user="BP"]

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[/quote]

Extraordinary...[:(]

[/quote]

Nope just a good business head - oops sorry, the french don't do good business head / customer service do they......?

[Rose]

[quote user="BP"]

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[/quote]

OMG - where do you live... I'll make a point of not going there!  [:-))]  dare I ask... do you have a sweet smile? [blink]

[raindog]

[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="caramac"][quote user="BP"]

And I especially do not allow shopkeepers in France to have a superior sneering attitude - I am the customer and I can speak gobbley-dook if I want to, if they want my money, they earn it by understanding what I need...most people back down pretty soon and start being helpful (I think it is my no-nonsense attitude but the OH says it is my sweet smile)

[/quote]

Extraordinary...[:(]

[/quote]

Nope just a good business head - oops sorry, the french don't do good business head / customer service do they......?

[/quote]

I thought caramac was being sarcastic......