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Teenagers in France - again!


Ac50
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Cambridge tourist board wants to ban coach parties of french students from visiting them because they apparently run riot with green silly string around the town, oh and they only make an average of £10 per head from them per visit.

Good to see where their priorities lie.   [:)]

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Thank you ClarkKent for reminding us the statistics can be  - 'lies, damn lies and statistics..."

And Mackyfrance, who says the JT list is the one to believe in?

I can only comment on what I see here-  & since it is possible to go to a university with what would have been mediocre/poor results then one must assume standards have declined.  Perhaps the French are doing similar, but I don't hear of them planning to send  50% of school leavers to university,  nor of no or few facilities to learn a trade in France as it seems to be in the UK.

Tegwini

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[quote user="tegwini"]

Thank you ClarkKent for reminding us the statistics can be  - 'lies, damn lies and statistics..."

And Mackyfrance, who says the JT list is the one to believe in?

I can only comment on what I see here-  & since it is possible to go to a university with what would have been mediocre/poor results then one must assume standards have declined.  Perhaps the French are doing similar, but I don't hear of them planning to send  50% of school leavers to university,  nor of no or few facilities to learn a trade in France as it seems to be in the UK.

Tegwini

[/quote]

It probably depends on what you think a university is for. Is a university a finishing school for people with high scores in tightly defined school subjects, or is it a place where people go to learn how to think and to evaluate information and how to construct a new understanding of that information? If the latter, then any country needs all the graduates it can produce. And it should not matter what subject is studied because it is the core learning, the transferrable skills learning, that is important (mind you, I wonder whether that applies to universities that offer degrees in homeopathy).

One of the factors which has been fuelling UK governments' policies on university access has been the number of people entering universities in countries like France where anyone with a Bac is entiltled to a university place. The UK hopes that it can do this without the large French dropout rate. As for entry qualifications? I can only speak for myself, I left school at 16 with four mediocre "O" levels. I entered university at the age of 30 with no further qualifications and stayed in the HE sector until I retired.

As for facilities to learn a trade? I don't know what trades you are thinking of. From my observation, France is not as well equipped as Britain to provide life-long learning or to permit training for job change in mid-life.

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We are also undertaking a feasibility study, with a view to moving to France. We have 3 children aged 12, 7 and 2. Like yourself we were very dismayed at the amount of negative comment we found and whilst we accept that there will obviously be difficulties, not just for the children but for us as well, we feel that the possible advantages outweigh the negative. At times you have to go with your instinct , you know your children better than anyone else and what is right for one family might not be right for another.

 

My wife and I have spoken in great detail in why we want to move to France, we have discussed it with the children and they know that whatever happens we will always be there for them.

 

All the best

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Hi Paul,

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your plans. Could I please make one suggestion before you start posting on other topics?  Your choice of grey print on the cream background makes your post very difficult to read for some one like me with less than perfect eyesight.  Good old black is always much easier.  Hope you don't mind me mentioning it.

Kathy

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I have put my tin hat on, and I'm about to duck, as I'm about to give you my 2 cents worth.

We have no children, but my french wife was 5 years a CAPES language teacher teacher in a big town in Brittany, moved to the UK, qualified there, and taught languages in UK comprehensives for 10 years. She reckons, that the French education system is generally lower quality than the UK, and the unversities are considerably lower than the Uk, apart from les grand ecoles.

Now, having said that, after 3 years living in Barcelona we are back living in France, as we go where my job takes me, and she's teaching here again! So it's Gueret (23) at the moment, but to head office in Germany after that.

Certainly having lived in other countries and then moved back to the UK, I find it amazing how lowly the Brits regard everything in their own country. France, Spain, Germany, the media mainly tell only good things. Why do the British hate their country so much?

By the way Dominique started at Brest Uni, but transferred to Rennes as she just hated Brest, miserable apparently in the winter!

If anyone knows L'Express, Bd Clemenceau, Guingamp (22), say hello to ma belle mere.

 

 

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[quote user="breizh"]

We have no children, but my french wife was 5 years a CAPES language teacher teacher in a big town in Brittany, moved to the UK, qualified there, and taught languages in UK comprehensives for 10 years. She reckons, that the French education system is generally lower quality than the UK, and the unversities are considerably lower than the Uk, apart from les grand ecoles.

Certainly having lived in other countries and then moved back to the UK, I find it amazing how lowly the Brits regard everything in their own country. France, Spain, Germany, the media mainly tell only good things. Why do the British hate their country so much?

[/quote]

 

My french friends tell me that University (not including the Grande Ecoles) is only considered on the same level as say a FE College.  I couldn't agree more about the French education system. Knowing what I know after 4 years here, I wish we'd kept our children in the UK system. I think we've seriously compromised their futures by putting them through the system here.

Your last comment is a whole other argument.  The British press is hell bent on telling us that the UK is going down the toilet and sadly too many British people believe what they read in the papers. Life according to the Daily Mail seems to be the commonly held view.

Scratch below the surface in France and EXACTLY the same problems exist here - youth crime, rising prices, violence, illegal immigrants but the foreign community largely seems to live in blissful ignorance!  However, the French press are, at the moment, far more loyal to their countrymen. For my part, I love the UK and I'm proud to be English.

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Forget this 'great adventure' business here in France Katie-poo; great problems lie in store in France for the unsuspecting. It is not Utopia, it is not the be-all and end-all of everything in life. Unless you are retired, self-sufficient, or have toddlers.

The grass is not always greener...in other words.

If it is for some, then fine. It ain't for many others.

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[quote user="Mackyfrance"]

ClarkKent, regardless of which league tables you look at French Universities don't fare well. Look at all the others - it's the same story more or less.  That is why the education minister is so determined to do something about them. 

[/quote]

Yes, I agree.

I agree wholeheartedly with you in your following post, as well. I was discussing Britain with a Daily Mail reader the other day. (Well, defending Britain, really.) He was astonished to learn that MRSA is a world-wide phenomenon and that there are more people dying from MRSA related problems than AIDS in the USA. He was convinced that we have the filthiest hospitals in the world and that MRSA was a purely local problem!

I like France, and am very happy to have a holiday home there, but I think that England is a wonderful place to live.

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I can only describe what I see & have knowledge of after teaching for over 30 yrs.  It is now common knowledge amongst teachers that standards have declined.    It is now possible to pass with only 20%  with some examination boards.  Recently a pass with the Edexel examination board C grade in Maths only needed 16%, and AQA 20% .  Somehow A level has followed this trend- A* grades now so commonplace that the universities are starting to arrange their own assessments.   And yet some 'universities'  are admitting students with D grades and lower.

A university degree is not only to enable a student to acquire a professional qualification, but also to learn a discipline-  coherent thinking etc.   It is doubtful that 50% of the population has the necessary IQ to cope with a university education. 

And, what's wrong with techical colleges training those wanting to learn a trade?  Not many plumbers around here - perhaps we should look forward to more Poles arriving in this part of the UK?   I don't hear of Polish plumbers in France - or a shortage  in France as in the UK.  And, ironically we have lots of young people in the UK - with 'degrees' ending up with  'Mcjobs', disillusioned & with university loans & debts after years wasted.

I realise that many young people in France cannot find work, and that French education has its problems too.  However, the BAC is admired here and many top & independent schools now offer  the International Bac instead of A level & top UK universities now welcome it. 

 

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The league table comparisons are comparing the best universities in each country.  The UK universities offering degrees in burger flipping and Beckham studies don't feature in these tables - presumably like the numerous mediocre French educational establishments that didn't make the league table either.  I take your point about the number of students with A grades now.  However, even though the current UK exam structure has skewed the measure of academic ability; intellect and ability within a population will still follow a normal distribution.  A poor exam structure doesn't eliminate academic achievement and intelligence - it has just made it more difficult to seperate the bright from the extremely bright.  It also doesn't change the fact that the UK has a lot more world class universities than France.  

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[quote user="tegwini"]I realise that many young people in France cannot find work, and that French education has its problems too.  However, the BAC is admired here and many top & independent schools now offer  the International Bac instead of A level & top UK universities now welcome it. [/quote]

 

I wouldn't argue at all that marking in the UK has got lower.When I took my A levels only the very brainiest got As and now every other person seems to get them.

However, the French Bac and the International Bac are two different things and shouldn't be confused. It is the International Baccalaureate which is widely regarded throughout the world not the French one. The IB was developed  by the IBO in Switzerland and it can only be taught at IBO accredited schools. It is only taught in a handful of international schools in France. While is is available in about 100 schools in the UK most of the top schools in the UK have rejected it.  It also has it's critics who say that the syllabus is too broad and that is doesn't adequately cater for people with certain skills. For example, a student who wasn't good at maths would be forced to study it for 5 years, while a linguist could only study one foreign language. That's why  many top schools, including Harrow and Winchester, have rejected it.

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I've been watching and reading this thread with great interest and I'm still not entirely convinced that entering these murky waters is such a good idea... but I’m coming in regardless! [Www]

I'm a parent who has recently moved a child to France.  As a family we spent years dreaming about and then planning our move to France.  For us we knew we had to move before our son was 8. For us that felt like the latest we should leave it.  Others make the decision to move and bring older children and some of those children flourish and others may not.  One of the reasons behind this is perhaps that all children are different, they all learn in different ways and at their own speed.  Some children will adapt easily and others may find the changes a little more difficult?  The arguments that are often made can perhaps at times be a little generalised? 

In recent years there has been great debate about the ability of our children in the UK; are standards lower?  I don't know.  I was lucky enough to go to Grammar School so it's difficult for me to compare.  I know that my OH moved to Australia when he was 10… his parents never settled and came home within the year.  He missed about a year of schooling but took his 11+ on returning to the UK, passed and went of to Grammar School… and is now a Chartered Accountant.  His time out of they system didn’t do him (or his brother) any harm, they came back to the UK on the ‘slow boat’ and got to visit some amazing places… did losing a year mean a lot in the general scheme of things or did the adventure make up for the loss?  I guess we’ll never know.

In the UK I worked at the other end of the learning cycle, with children in their Early Years.  There has been a huge amount of research in this area and we are told now that the two biggest factors in a child’s future success lie not with the choice of school but by their parent’s affluence and by the amount of time a parent is prepared to invest in their child.

 

So… perhaps deciding which country has the best universities or the best education system isn’t the most relevant?  Perhaps we should just allow parents to decide which offers the best opportunity for their child… and whilst there will always be exceptions to the rule (Like Jura difficulties in trying to get into the system)… perhaps most parents know what’s right for their family and many of those that embark on a big adventure state having more time with the family as one of the reasons why they moved?

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The IB is being taught at many schools including some top ones.  I am not convinced that Harrow & Winchester are top schools when one looks at their results.  Dozens of LEA grammar schools have better A level results- with fewer resources, and kids needing to have some type of job.   Reluctance by many good schools,  mine including,   is more about cost than doubt over the broad range of subjects needed for the BAC/IB.   Many teachers,  myself included,  think that children are being forced to choose subjects & hence careers far too young. A broad syllabus is a major advantage & allows students to choose careers at  17/18 rather than at 15 /16.  Around the world few countries test school leavers at 18 in such a narrow range of subjects.

The National Curriculum now insists that all have to do Maths, Science & English for 5 years at secondary school and this is an improvement from the past when some kids dropped maths for example, as young as 13,  only to regret it later.  You can study more than one language at many schools these days - but generally it is the brighter kids that do that.

This is a topic that many disagree on,  but clearly change is happening & for once the UK is starting to look elsewhere & is starting to consider that perhaps  its educational  'gold standard'   (A levels)  is becoming a mite tarnished.

regards

tegwini

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[quote user="tegwini"]

The IB is being taught at many schools including some top ones.  I am not convinced that Harrow & Winchester are top schools when one looks at their results.  Dozens of LEA grammar schools have better A level results- with fewer resources,

Many teachers,  myself included,  think that children are being forced to choose subjects & hence careers far too young. A broad syllabus is a major advantage & allows students to choose careers at  17/18 rather than at 15 /16.  Around the world few countries test school leavers at 18 in such a narrow range of subjects.

The National Curriculum now insists that all have to do Maths, Science & English for 5 years at secondary school and this is an improvement from the past when some kids dropped maths for example, as young as 13,  only to regret it later.  You can study more than one language at many schools these days - but generally it is the brighter kids that do that.

This is a topic that many disagree on,  but clearly change is happening & for once the UK is starting to look elsewhere & is starting to consider that perhaps  its educational  'gold standard'   (A levels)  is becoming a mite tarnished.

regards

tegwini

[/quote]

I think that sums up the education system in France very well too. Narrow subject choice, forced to specialise from 15. Interestingly, while people in the UK knock the education system, it is one of the models that the Education Minister in France is looking at, along with Germany. As for Winchester, we'll have to agree to differ. It was ranked 13th in the Times League tables and had more passes at A/B grade than the top state school and Harrow was only outclassed by a couple of them.

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[quote user="Gemonimo"]Macky, if the level of a french university (faculté) is the same as a college of further education, does that mean that medical students at the fac de medicine are being taught at the equivalent of the local tech.....?[/quote]

 

If what my friend, who is a retired University prof tells me is true, then yes.  Medicine in France is apparently not that difficult to get in to and requires much lower grades than to study in the UK.

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Yes it is a doddle to start in medicine here, you just have to have the bac, any bac.  However you spend a year preparing for a competitive exam.  Most are then eliminated, those at the top can choose to do medicine or dentistry.  The numbers are fixed each year and many people do the year twice only to fail the second time.

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Hello

A slightly different angle but I studied French as a foreign language at Uni here in France and had to attend for 24 hours a week and had on average 1.5 hours of homework per day.  This was the norm in the language fac so I assume this is the norm across the board (can someone confirm).  My niece, who is studying in the UK, attends for 12 hours a week which I think is ridiculously low.  Perhaps the long hours contribute to the drop out rate in France, in the UK also there is much more of a culture of enjoying Uni life, which mainly means getting drunk every night, Uni in France seemed a lot more serious and perhaps less 'fun' again the hours may contribute to this.  Thoughts?

Another interesting point with regard to exam pass levels, I have two friends who have returned to Uni in England later in life (late 30's) both failed Maths and English O levels first time around so had to do an access course before applying to Uni.  They have both just achieved a first, that to me seems odd, great for them but shows surely a dumbing down of results over the 25 years between their exam taking.  They didn't get remarkably brighter in between times, one was a postman the other worked in a hotel. 

 

Panda

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/a_level_gcse_results/

Bonjour Mackyfrance

Do have a look at link-  many changes(list is for 2007) in 'top schools' & I believe that in the next decade or so many more schools will offer the IB/Bac.  And it is significant that a larger % are in fee-paying schools in the UK, and I do not compare the ecole prive which charge a tiny amt. The average school fee these days is £2000- £3000,    per term, and more, and, day only.                                       Winchester over £25 K pa !   I have met a couple of Wykhamists - nothing special - except rich parents. 

 So many state schools in the UK are appalling. Yes, likewise in  French banlieu, but appalling here in the shires, leafy suburbs & expensive to live in county towns. 

It's not perfect here, that's why this ex-pat forum exists!

regards

Tegwini

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