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Teenagers in France - again!


Ac50
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AC50, I am sure if you ask your husband about the problems concerning the French University system he will fully aware of the political issues as they formed a cornerstone of President NS election manifesto, as NS sees radical University reform as a key element in creating a competitive and diverse French economy.

Another problem has been years of chronic underfunding other than the two Grand Ecoles, to the point that many French University buildings are in a surprisingly run down state.

The current low world rating of French Universities is not the result of a survey, but several well regarded international rating systems that again I am sure your husband will be familiar with as an academic.

My earlier point was that as an academic family the wonderful success of your children, may not be a realistic comparison for parents whose children have an average academic ability.

 

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I agree with the run down effect here on uni buildings. The fac my daughter has just finished at and to which the boy goes in September is supposed to be a flagship buildings and is actually shaped like a boat, right in the very centre of Brest,even appears on postcards and is extremely tatty with no exterior paintwork been re-done for years by the look of it. I cannot moan about the funding though because the state have paid for everything for my two compared to their cousins in the UK universities where it falls on my siblings to pay thousands.
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  • 2 months later...
Thank you Ac50 for your 'positive' posting.  I not so long ago dared to ask the question on moving a teenager to France and was very disheartened by the negative responses.  But we didn't let it deter us. We have now considered all our options and discussed them with the children and have decided that our eldest will stay in the UK to finish his education, whilst the rest of the family will make the move next Summer.  We have absolutely no doubt that the transition will be diffcult but feel that the benefits far outweigh the problems we may encounter.  And yes some might say that by leaving the 16 yr old behind, we actually payed heed to those negative comments, but we will still be emabarking on this journey with a 14yr old, 12yr old, 10yr old 6yr old and 3yr old, a mammoth task in itself.  I think what I'm trying to say is that I'm glad I posted the question in the first place, because it helped us as a family, to make an informed and considered decision.  I suppose someone had to play Devils Advocate !  But I can't help wondering if the negative responses are also a way of putting people off altogether, perhaps borne out of some, dare I say selfish, albeit unconscious, need to keep what they have to themselves !  Congratulations Ac50 to you and especially to your children, I hope that our journey into the unknown proves to be as succesful.  Perhaps when we have settled I too will let you all know how we are getting along and for those of you who have an aversion to people succeeding in the world, may I suggest you don't read my next posting, just incase it all works out !! 
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[quote user="trumpet"]

Frankly AC50 I am not surprised that you get a bit of flack. I understand you are proud of your children and husband. But it does all come across as a bit of a Round Robin, circular.  [/quote]

Why is it that we British are so averse to people referring to their children's academic success, whether in the UK or, as here. in France? If little Jim or Janet is good at sport or acting or music or almost anything else, no problem - they just become mini-celebrities and everyone applauds.  But let them do well at school/university and somehow it's showing off even to mention it. As the mother of two children (now with children of their own) whose principal ability was and is academic, I learned very early on to keep quiet about their achievements unless to very close friends. It really puzzles me..... 

Really glad your children have done so well ac50. [:D]

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Well done AC50 & children, I have just joined this forum and have been impressed by the positive slant on France.  This thread has proved not quite so positive, and I fail to understand some of the negative comments.

I am a retired teacher, and for me it is hard to say much that is positive about the UK education system, including tertiary education, but French school pupils, students and student teachers,  and I have met & taught quite a few, have all impressed me.

It's lovely to hear of such success, especially after such changes in their young lives.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would agree with your experience, however, yours has not been ours. We moved here in 2004 and my son was 16. No college would accept him because he did not speak French (that was the only reason) and he has received no schooling here at all since, or any assistance in that area. He is returning to Australia on November 7th thoroughly fed up with this country. I would say you made the right move...Normandy, Brittany and the like willingly cater to non-French and non-French speakers. The area we moved to do not and still do not from what we have heard from others we have recently met here.  Our French experience has not been positive and I, for one, cannot wait to be out of it.

Wanting to live in France is not the solution to happiness here; it is WHERE you choose to live in France that decides the outcome. And no matter how much 'homework' or 'research' you do you do not know the full picture until you have signed on the dotted line and actually moved in. In our experience anyway.

Glad you're happy though. Maybe Normandy is where we should have gone to begin with.

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It just highlights the problems people encounter when they arrive and don't know the system.  Unless you know, why would you think that collège stops at 15 and obligatory schooling at 16.  Even though I've lived here for years and work in the school system I still find it quite odd that there is this year from 15-16 where they have to be taught but where there are so many different options available.  It is just because you get so used to the system that you have been through yourself, I think.

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  • 3 months later...

I am new to this forum and am so surprised by some of the lovely positive replies to this topic, we are thinking of moving our 12, 10,6 and 3 year old over to Bretagne this year and posted on another forum for info, much of which was so negative it really made our hearts stop!!! I think if you plan a move to another country whose language is not your native tounge, you must be prepared to work really hard to try to learn as much of the language and culture as you can before and while you are there, you cannot expect to just fly without wings as it were!! You need to try it first and research everything you can first. we are still looking at the feasibility of moving and at least have some positive things to balance the equation. My 12 year old is very positive about the possibility of moving and is currently looking at differnt forums about education, so Thanks for some positive stuff about schooling etc.

Julie 

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I've just read this thread for the first time, having contributed on other 'teenage' threads.  I was so pleased with the first post - AC50 - as it is a great positive story to counterbalance many negative comments on this Forum about bringing teenagers to France.  I have brought 3 non-academic teenagers to study technical qualifications and, apart from teacher and student strikes, am so pleased with what France has to offer non-academic children.  The practical training that my daughters are getting by doing BEPs, despite French being a second language, is wonderful

Incidentally, I understand that the strikes are a protest against the government phasing out of the BEP route, so perhaps I shouldn't complain.

 

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I thought I might share something that my son's head said to me a few months ago.  She said that it is unfair to bring teenage children to France - unfair on them, unfair on the teachers who are not in a position to give them the help they need, unfair on the other children who suffer while the teacher has to give extra help and support to the non-French speakers, and unfair on those other english speaking kids who will be called upon to translate and help them.  She told me I should tell all my friends not to bring their teenagers to school in France but let them finish their education in their own country first. She has said that her college struggles with the 6 or so English children who started with no French and won't be taking any more.  Interesting comment I thought.

As far as universities go, French universities are only the equivalent of FE colleges in the UK. As someone already mentioned, they fared very poorly in the highly regarded Jiao Tong university global league tables, where even Belgium and Switzerland had more universities in the top 100 than France. They didn't fare any better in any of the other less well regarded global university league tables.  France has one of the lowest graduate rates in Europe and the highest drop out rate after Year 1 (approx 80%).

But universities aside, I'm interested in what jobs people's children find when they finish their education.

 

 

 

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I think, at best, it's a huge gamble taking children in their teens to France.  Comments have been made that, if the child is bright / academic, they they may be ok - but what might they have achieved in a school / college where the lessons were in their own language?  My older son is 15 now and is bright and motivated (his teachers expect him to get straight A*'s in his GCSE's this summer).  He may have coped with school life in France, he may have passed his BAC, he may even have passed it reasonably well - but would he have achieved the standard that he is expected to attain here in the UK? 

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Mackyfrance, I have news for your teacher. If said non-french speaking English kids are under the age of 16 then that College MUST accept them if they live in that particular school's  Commune. The French really annoy me in this respect...they started the EU and are very much a part of it, so why should they not be prepared to do their duty and accept those arriving to live here from other countries and cultures under their EU rights?  Other countries, especially those in the UK, have to accept foreign students from other non-English speaking EU countries and cope with them, and so should the French do the same with non-french speaking kids.  They simply do not wish to make the effort, this I have found. I think it is pathetic that a supposedly forward-thinking nation as France maintains an education system that cannot cope with English speaking kids. In the 21st century! I mean we are speaking about English...not Mandarin here. The whole idea of the current EU is no barrier to movement; freedom of movement to all EU citizens everywhere within the EU, including nationality and that has to include language. I suggest that France get out the textbooks and start educating their teachers to speak, at least, the english language to some degree and stop pushing the Republican crap. Don't forget the same EU laws that allow the British to come and live here are the same laws that REQUIRE their children to be educated here. Regardless if they speak French or not.

Why on earth have the EU at all then? Scrap it? so then the  Brits will have to sell up here and go back to old Blighty...so long as the Poles sod off back to Warsaw I suppose.

Personally, this teacher needs to clear her school's refusal to accept local non-French speaking kids with the Mairie first before they really get themselves into trouble.

 

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I was curious to investigate world league table for univeristies & discovered that the THES (Times Higher Education Supplement) one on the BBC sitehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4379738.stm,  lists the top 20 universities

1 (1) Harvard University, US
2 (3) Massachusetts Institute of Technology, US
3 (6) Cambridge University, UK
4 (5) Oxford University, UK
5 (7) Stanford University, US
6 (2) University of California, Berkeley, US
7 (8) Yale University, US
8 (4) California Institute of Technology, US
9 (9) Princeton University, US
10 (27) Ecole Polytechnique, France
11= (52) Duke University, US
11= (11) London School of Economics, UK
13 (14) Imperial College London, UK
14 (23) Cornell University, US
15 (17) Beijing University, China
16 (12) Tokyo University, Japan
17= (20) University of California, San Francisco, US
17= (13) University of Chicago, US
19 (22) Melbourne University, Australia
20 (19) Columbia University, US

Drop out rate is probably high in many of these universities,  I often wonder how many of the new crop going to 'uni' in the UK pass university exams as many are very average, and often well below average these days.  Having taught teenagers for decades & seeing the declining standards & increasing passes with A & A* marks I am constantly amazed!  

 Perhaps the French are less tolerant of medicre university  students which might explain the high drop-out rate.   The UK universities, many of which should be called FE/Technical colleges,  but want the status of being a university, & yet admit students with poor grades. Many offer 'degrees' in various trades & crafts or  even worthless topics,  & many graduating from such places have no employment prospects & have wasted money & years of their lives.  So many end up in 'Mcjobs'.   An apprenticeship or college course would make more sense.

The French, at least , seem to be training engineers & scientists to deal with manufacturing,  transport & etc in the modern world - not much is manufactured in the UK these days,  & few serious engineering projects are undertaken in the UK compared with France.    I recently bought a new(bog standard) trailer here in the UK  (best quality/price) - sadly many of which sold in the UK are now made in France.

In fact, serious reform is needed here, but it's unlikely to happen with a Labour government.

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Mackyfrance, the reason there is a high drop out rate from French universities is because everyone with the bac in his pocket has the right to a place.  Insofar as one can scrape through on 'ratrappage' or sail through with a 'mention' they all have the same right to a place.  The government hopes to introduce selection into universities but  is meeting with resistance. As far as my children are concerned, my older daughter left university and returned to england to join the army as a linguist (she has english/french/spanish/arabic). My second daughter did applied foreign languages (english/french/spanish) but after her masters degree has gone on to train as an educatrice specialisée. My son is currently at university reading maths/physics/chemistry.   This might look like a middle class success story but for the record, I am a single mother and had no financial help from my ex-husband and my children all had 100% grants.  They all worked their way through university stacking supermarket shelves or picking fruit. If they hadn't gone to university and gone the 'professional' route at least there are courses and apprenticeships available.  Jen

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Jura - yes I know that what they are doing is not right but they'll do it nonetheless.  This is France.....! I doubt the Maire would have much to say about it anyway. There is also a primary school in the neighbouring departement which won't take English kids either for the same reason. The Maire hates the English, Dutch and Belgians and is happy to say so even in print and just hopes we'll all go home so he's supporting the teacher.

Geronimo - yes, I know that's why drop out rate is high. I've also been told that pastoral care is non-existant and as most French children have spent their whole school life being spoonfed that they can't cope with the demands of having to motivate themselves.  Personally I think that selection will go against the French idea of egalite so I don't give it much chance. Well done to your children too.

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Mackyfrance; if I was those people I would be going to the Prefecture and reporting that Maire's activities and attitudes. Otherwise they could always threaten their Maire, and Prefect, with a rendezvous in Strasbourg. And actually do it! The French, and France, are part of the European Union and so are subject to European laws whether they like it or not, just as the UK, Germany, Spain et al...unless more people take them to task on this they will never pull their socks up and act accordingly.  If France wants to make it's own rules and apply them then she should withdraw completely. But you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
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I really dont see any smugness in the opening post whatsoever.  It is obvious that the post is intended to give positive encouragement to those thinking about moving with teenagers.  Congratulations on the achievements of your children AC50.

However, you seem to be an academic family and, your children would have enjoyed sound guidance throughout their childhood from you and your husband.  What concerns me, is that posts often appear where the parents are optimistic, rather than realistic with regards to moving to France with teenagers.  In the ideal world, a parent would know whether their child is capable of uprooting and moving to a foreign land.  A child may be the brightest crayon in the box, but knowing their position in their own hierachy could be more important to them.  On the other hand, there could be a child with far less ability who could see the move as a great adventure.

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[quote user="Mackyfrance"]Tegwini - you need to look at the Jiao Tong league tables, not the Times as the JT one is considered the benchmark with the Times being the pretender to the throne![/quote]

 

The JT league table concentrates on the performance of universities in the natural sciences and mathematics. Its weightings include the number of Nobel Prizes and Field Medals and papers published in Nature and Science. The JT's reliance on a relatively narrow spectrum of university activity reduces its usefulness and one should not forget that its purpose is primarily political.

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[quote user="Just Katie"]

In the ideal world, a parent would know whether their child is capable of uprooting and moving to a foreign land.  A child may be the brightest crayon in the box, but knowing their position in their own hierachy could be more important to them.  On the other hand, there could be a child with far less ability who could see the move as a great adventure.

[/quote]

My experience of bringing my four children here has been that most parents encourage their children to engage with my children because they are English.  So my 8 year old gets invited to other boys' houses so that their offspring can pick up some English.  One of my teenage daughters has a lovely friend, whose mother is angling for her daughter to have a holday with us when we go back to the UK.  It's good for my children's self-esteem to be wanted.

Do others have similar experiences?

 

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