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To keep child in French school or move to International school?


Jammy
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Hi, we have a 4-yr old daughter who has spent the last year and a bit at the village school (she is the first English child they’ve had) and appears to have a mental block when it comes to communicating what she wants to say in French.

 

Her behaviour has been less than exemplary in class – has resorted to pushing/kicking her fellow pupils or shouting during sit-down time when the teacher is trying to teach them something.  Her teacher thinks it’s down to her frustration at not being able to communicate effectively with her peers and the fact that that she is “very intelligent” (his words, not ours).  He is convinced she understands what is being asked of her as she is often the first finished on any tasks given, sometimes doing them twice over.  The school didn’t seem to be too concerned as they thought she would pick up the French (being so young) like the little Portuguese boy who started at the same time as her, but it just hasn’t happened.

 

We have a very difficult decision to make in the next couple of weeks – whether to keep her where she is or to move her to the Intl School of Bearn.  We’d love for her to be bilingual but she moves into the Maternelle Moyenne section next year (22 children in class) and as the school offers no French tuition for non-French pupils we’re worried that she will stop wanting to learn at all.

 

Has anyone had children who have found it difficult in a French school and what did they do?

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Hi Jammy,

I have not put children through any school in France but as a parent, it is most likely that the teacher is correct in saying that your daughter is frustrated.  This teacher seems to understand her behaviour and recognise her intelligence which is a good thing. 

I think this problem will come right in time although (as you no doubt know), you will need to join a group during the holidays to ensure she keeps her level of french.

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She's had 3 teachers since starting last April - and all have experienced these "behavioural issues" with her.  After the summer she'll be onto her 4th teacher with a new classroom assistant - and we're wondering whether we should take the risk of leaving her another year or bite the bullet and move her now.

She will be joining a french loisirs group for a couple of days a week during the summer and she will be spending time with her friends from school too.

Tomorrow we're going to spend the morning at the Intl School - just to see if she shows any interest in what they do there.  It looks like the Intl school has a more varied structure than her current school would offer next year too - which could prove to be a winning factor.

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My daughter arrived aged 4 and was the first in our family to be able to chatter away in French, but some years later when she started at College, her French teacher told us that actually her vocabulary was non-existent - she was just a good actress! So she had private French lessons after that, and each year her teachers suggested that she redouble as they said she was "très fragile" academically - but in the end she got her Bac L with good marks. Oh, and she had hearing problems when young too, with 4 operations by the time she was 8 for grommets. So she did a few years with a French orthophoniste as well.

My younger son was just a baby when we arrived, but never really heard much French until he started at Maternelle. In fact he didn't speak much in English either, except to say things like "no likey French". His behaviour was fine - he thought the toys in the classroom were very exciting, and was always pleased to go to school in the morning. But he never did a single thing that the teacher wanted - I know because she used to moan at me every day. In year 4 when he started CP I was waiting for him to learn to read (I'd tried myself to teach him to read in English but he wasn't interested) but the whole year went by and he couldn't read at all at the start of CE1.

Luckily the next teacher was very organised, and assured me it often took 2 years to learn to read, and in fact things improved very rapidly after that. I had no other options though because there isn't an International School near us - so I just hoped that things would work out in the end, which they did !
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Our daughter was 9 when she started at a local primary school.  She is a bright girl but was very slow to pick up the language.  We arranged private French lessons for her but she still had real problems.  I am glad to say that the problems she had did not manifest themselves in the sort of bahavior your child seems to exhibit.  She was desperately unhappy but not disruptive.  Even so we did seriously consider going back to England because of how upsetting it was for her.  It took a good year and a half for her to really settle.

The catalyst I think was that after 9 months we changed schools and within a few weeks she started to settled, started to speak French and we have never looked back.  I think in part it was the change which made her realise we, her parents, took her problems seriously.  I think many parents tend to think 'Oh kids... they soon pick up the lingo'  In fact it is not at all easy for them.  (I am not suggesting you think like this, it is apparent you are very concerned).

Obviously all cases are different but for us it was importanmt she went to a local French school.  This is not just about language but also about culture.  She is now indistinguishable from a French Child.  Apart from the fact that she is well behaved of course. [:)]

It is hard to tell sometimes if the language issue is causing the problem or concealing one.  Have you considered a change of school locally?  Maybe for you this is not possible. 

I did notice by the way that our child seemed to absorb the language for a long time before venturing to speak it, when she finally did there was no stopping her.  I have heard other parents say this too.

Good luck.

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Hmmm; our son (6) has been in ecole maternelle for two years now and is only just starting to communicate in French with his little friends but is doing well all the same. We have never pushed him to speak French in all this time, we have allowed him to progress at his own rate. I think this is important. However whenever we previously asked him questions in French he would react in a negative way as if he did not want to be bothered with speaking French. We decided to leave it and let him do it on his own.

You say you would 'love' your child to be 'bi-lingual'...how much an issue has this been made in your home and is your child feeling overly pressured by you to be 'bi-lingual' ?

Otherwise your child might have a behavioural problem which might not be connected with any language skills...it happens.

 

 

 

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Hi,

Are you sure she is not following the behaviour of the rest of the class?   I have a CE2 class on a Monday who all behave like that!!!  There are differences between town and village schools which  I couldnt believe until I  started working in primary schools last year.   Are there any children in the class with behavioural problems who perhaps receive more attention, whether it be negative attention or not?   Remember though, she is only 4,  years ahead of her to learn.

Lollie    44

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[quote user="Jammy"]

Hi, we have a 4-yr old daughter who has spent the last year and a bit at the village school (she is the first English child they’ve had) and appears to have a mental block when it comes to communicating what she wants to say in French.

 

Her behaviour has been less than exemplary in class – has resorted to pushing/kicking her fellow pupils or shouting during sit-down time when the teacher is trying to teach them something.  [/quote]

 

Well, I have no direct experience (of my own, I mean) but my friends' 4 year old reacted that way when he still wasn't quite sure what was going on, and other kids were whispering insults at him (in their own little ways). It seemed to the teacher as though he was just shouting out for nothing/at random.  This took a while to identify, and yes, this boy's behaviour seemed 'odd' to others, but in the end, when careful observations had been made, it seemed quite a rational response to what he was experiencing.

 

This boy also didn't speak, but he definitely knew what was being said to him - I picked him up from school a few times and the conversations we had about his day and what people said while I was picking him up indicated that.

 

I think, without knowing all the details, that I agree with Jura on this. I suspect your child doesn't have a 'mental block' but is just biding her time as far as using the language goes, and perhaps getting into scrapes because of it. It may not be the same problem as my little friend had, but still I would be wary of judging, faulting, or negatively labelling a child of that age on their coping strategy in this situation.

 

Can I ask, do you have French TV/Radio on at home when your daughter is there?

 

If I were you, and intent on living in France with a child that age, I would stick it out in 'normal' schools, even if it meant changing school.

 

ETA The weird spacing is out of my control. I have tried....

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Tressy I agree with you. I think some people place too many demands on very young children when they move here; just because a child is very young does not necessarily mean they will instantly integrate and both understand and speak the language within that magical, and often impractical, 'six months'. It happens for some, it does not happen for many others and I think it would help if we read about more people experiencing regarding the latter rather than those flowery stories about those whose kids are 'fluent' after just several months here - they are not the norm and should not be presented as such.

Children deal with frustration in many ways and lashing out at others is just one of them. If you were placed in an environment where everyone went 'blah blah blah' at you all day and everyday for months on end I am sure you'd get pretty pissed about it too...

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Hi Jammy,

It's a tricky one. You know your child better than anyone but it's so hard to know what is the best way to go when they are so young. If it were me, I would stick it out because changing schools can aggravate the problem. Your daughter may well have reacted in this way to an english-speaking school too, you just don't know. If it helps to hear other people's experiences, our son started in petite section just before his 3rd birthday. He was barely speaking in english and had no french really. He rarely spoke in french at school although the teacher felt he understood. I told him on the first day that if he didn't understand he must say 'Je ne comprends pas' which he promptly did - to everything - for months...The teacher told us that whilst he wasn't exactly naughty she had never heard a child just say 'non' to her or completley ignore her like he did. He did not sit still and never napped in the afternoon which they just thought was weird. They called in someone to 'evaluate' him - the guy just said he was immature but no problems as such.

It wasn't really until the start of grande section that he really picked up the language a bit more (he's 5 now and still not perfect, but very comfortable). He does get teased (ginger, glasses AND british poor love!) but unfortunately that's school and kids everywhere. Work wise, he is doing fine at school and although I hated dragging him to school on the days he didn't want to go, the days he runs in himself make up for it. I think the routine of it all helped and had he changed schools it could have been harder. But that's him, as I say, and everyone is different. Four years old is young and not the easiest of ages so good luck and stick with it! You may well find that as the temptation to make friends with the other girls grows, so does her ability or desire to speak french.

Jane

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Hello Jammy

I have been educating 4 children at French schools.  The first year is decidedly the hardest.  They take a while to adjust, understanding first, speaking later and eventually writing.

Can you help your daughter learn French quicker by only allowing her to watch French TV programmes (I did this with my children)?  Perhaps she could have extra conversation lessons (not too tough as she is only 4)?  Does she stay at school during lunch breaks and for the after school clubs?

How did you find the International School?

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We'd always accepted that the the first year at school would always be the hardest - going to school being the biggest change, because she'd already been exposed to French for a couple of years through child-care.

We play her "Dora the Explorer" DVDs in French and the BBC's Muzzy programmes (which she loves) but to be honest I don't let her watch kids' TV on the french TV channels as it's just rubbish (apologies if I offend anyone)! We play English/French songs in the car which she can sing to her heart's content.  But for everyday conversation she is really struggling.

With regard to the International School, she spent a morning there and she seemed to enjoy herself.  From what I saw, she was eager to get in the thick of things and first to put her hand up when the teacher asked a question.  They do have a couple of lessons in French a week which increases in frequency the older they get, and the idea is that if a child was to move to another country, be it English-speaking or French-speaking they are much more easily integrated.  This element appeals to us as we may move in 2-3years time due to my husband's job.

I've read other peoples' experiences with their children on this forum and it's been really informative and helpful, and we will be discussing all our options in the next week and finally make a decision (as both schools need to know our decision pretty soon)!

So, thanks to all of you who wrote in response to my post - it is very much appreciated.

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  • 2 weeks later...
How much French do you and your partner speak? Have you taken lessons and made a genuine effort to learn? do you try and speak French together at home. I know writing this is going to raise a storm - but let's imagine the scenario with a Bengali or a Polish child here in the UK. I personally think it is wrong of anybody from any nation to go anywhere without really trying to integrate- and that means learning the language, as a family and practising it at home- this is first rule of respect for the host nation and community. I have some friends who have bought a house in France and want to go and live there asap. they have all been taking lessons here, including the very young children - and speak French together when they go and spend the summer in F. They are waiting another year for the move so children will be able to integrate into school quickly, and the whole family into the new community.

Certainly I would try and find somebody who would give her speaking/communication skills in a fun way, going on to improving reading then writing skills later. But unless the whole family works at it genuinely together....

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an interesting story on the subject. my godmother was born in 1910 in Alsace. Aged 4, she came down for breakfast and father told the family 'from today onwards, you must never speak French anymore. You must speak German. children replied that they couldn't! so father replied simply 'shut up until you can!. 4 years later, children came down for breakfast- chatting fluently in German, and father said 'from today onwards, the war is over, you must never speak German, you must speak French'. But they said, we've forgotten French. Reply 'shut up till you remember'.  They all became fully bilingual of course, the very hard way, in very hard times.

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I have been told by several professionals not to speak French to my children at home as they will pick up my accent.  They have said that it is better for them to learn French at school with native speakers.  At home, we all speak English - they need it as they losing the ability to recall several English words.

A stagiere comes to the house to give them French conversation lessons.

 

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does that mean I shouldn't have spoken to my children in English as they grew up because my 'th' often turn out as 'f' or 'v'. Or that Pakistanis parents shouldn't speak to their children in English, or Italian ones, or whatever? A language is for communicating- first and foremost. And what about parents with a Geordie or Scouse accent, should they never speak to their children at all- and leave it to the teachers. How sad ... and I feel, a cop out. sorry. And what if their teacher has a Toulouse or Vosges or Dordogne accent?

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an International school will be full of German, American, Chinese, etc, children - and they will all have different accents anyway - should they stop playing together? Most Brits in France live in rural communities where the natives are likely to have strong 'non standard' (whatever that means) accents - so best not to talk to them, just in case...

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Hi Jammy,

I would definatly keep your child in a French school as she is so young, you say shes has been in the school since April this year? If that is the case then that is no time at all to give her adequate chance, she will go through various stages of learning her new  language including showing her frustration but that will pass, bear with it and she will have a new language  very quickly be patient. My personal feeling is that by sending her to a Int school at this stage will halt her progress and it will be yet another change and what a waste, submersion is at her age the best method.

If you speak a good level of French ie: Gramaticaly correct, its not an accent thing, then by all means talk to her at home but if not then leave it to her school and friends. At her age perhaps use every day during the holidays a DVD in French that you are happy for her to watch, Aristocats, tick & tac (Chip & Dale!!) that sort of thing and have the radio on so that she hears general chatter even if she does'nt understand it subliminaly she will pick up language and of course if you can have playmates over all the better.

We have used all these methods ( and a lot more!) as our children were older when they came here,  it took a year or so at their age but you will find that she will settle and become truly bi lingual very quickly by quickly I mean a 6 months you will see a significant increase in her vocabulary with a correct accent and pronunsiation and after that fast progress.

I hope this helps good luck

 

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[quote user="odile"]does that mean I shouldn't have spoken to my children in English as they grew up because my 'th' often turn out as 'f' or 'v'. Or that Pakistanis parents shouldn't speak to their children in English, or Italian ones, or whatever? A language is for communicating- first and foremost. And what about parents with a Geordie or Scouse accent, should they never speak to their children at all- and leave it to the teachers. How sad ... and I feel, a cop out. sorry. And what if their teacher has a Toulouse or Vosges or Dordogne accent?
[/quote]

Actually you will find that most Pakistani's speak exclusively their mother tongue at home (and follow traditions, eat traditional food etc. etc.) and we too were advised to speak in English to our son at home to ensure he does not lose his English (by a french speech specialist).  It's not about accents at all, I speak well in french and on occasion explain things to my son in french when needed but the majority of conversations in our household are in english unless a french friend is here when we all revert to a common language to make things easier for all.

So not a cop out at all, most of the parents I've met recognise the importance of being able to speak english to their childs future and speaking at home is key to this.

As to the OP my son was 3 when we moved here and was one of the lucky ones and picked up the language very quickly, I studied here too (at Uni, FLE) and we learnt together, some kids and adults have more problems with language than others and I;m sure she will come through it well.  Having said all of that I would consider an international school if I were in your position and able to afford it especially if there is any chance you will move in the next few years to an english speaking country.

As for the television, I let my son watch french childrens telly, all childrens TV is pretty dire (in any country) but at least the language is going in!

Panda

 

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My children who are both perfect bilinguals (as far as that is possible) have an English father and Belgian (French speaking) mother. Mother never ever spoke to them in English, father never in French. Even today when both kids are in their thirties they dont like their parents speaking the 'wrong language to them.

In your case, it is essential you do NOT speak French to them at home, thus setting up a barrier between the two languages which is essential for bilingualism. Otherwise they will end up with no complete language and be a mess.

This could be one danger of the International School. Another danger is that they are dumping grounds for kids who are a mess (I speak of Switzerland here) or are linguistically confused, which means that they speak a sort of mixed linguistic patois and have single complete language, which is a recipe for total disaster in the future (seen it too often)

The downside is that your kids will always have better French than you.

(I taught languages for 35 years)

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Hi Woolybanana, where are you in Switzerland? I'm originally from Neuchatel area.

You are so lucky to have brought up your children in a naturally bilingual setting. I do envy you.  When my children were little, their father didn;'t speak French at all- and we made the decision that therefore we would speak English as a family. I knew 2 French families near us - the children started school hardly speaking a word of English - were laughed at and bullied to some extent.  Yes they eventually became bilingual, but at a high social cost. And I agree that if a family is in France for a short time because of job, etc, with a possible move back to an English speaking country, than speaking English only at home is essential. However, I feel that if a family makes a voluntary, permanent move to another country, then priority should be given to acquiring the host language, rather than nurturing the 'old' one. If children hear their parents shouting louder and louder at local tradesmen, shop assistants, etc. rather than make a true effort to learn and adapt, it's a bad example.  English people do constantly complain at the drain on the education system of absorbing children with different languages. When Somali families arrive from their war torn country, or Bengaldeshis families from flooded or extremely poor countries, often unable to read or write, they have a good excuse (proving they do make the effort to learn as quickly as poss!) - but families making a voluntary move to sunnier climes should know better.

I've taught French and German in Leicester for more than 20 years. We have 3 generations here and children now mostly speak English at home with siblings and parents, and only speak Pakistani with grandparents.

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[quote user="Cathy"]

I have been told by several professionals not to speak French to my children at home as they will pick up my accent.  They have said that it is better for them to learn French at school with native speakers.  At home, we all speak English - they need it as they losing the ability to recall several English words.

A stagiere comes to the house to give them French conversation lessons.

[/quote]

I need to qualify what I said.  I'm good at speaking French but I have an accent and have various grammatical errors, which I try to correct but not always successfully.  When we arrived here in France, it was linguistic experts that suggested that I stick to speaking English in the home.  However, I do speak French in front of the children to other people.

Having done this, I feel that I took the right course of action and, given my time all over again, I would do the same.  Now that all the children are fluent in French, I can speak French directly to them more often, especially when French people are present.  They have got to a stage where they correct my accent and my errors, which is great for me and funny for them.

Accents are not a problem.  But I think that it is better for children when they arrive here to learn their French from native speakers, if they can.

When they get through the pain barrier of the first 6 months, they start to feel really excited at being bilingual and it does their self esteem a power of good.

 

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dear Cathy - I'm so glad to hear you make the effort to speak French and that your children hear you speak French with neighbours, etc. and fantastic to hear they now correct you - yes being bilingual is wonderful. I was playing devil's advocate, and sorry if I ruffled a few feathers. I know so many Brits who have moved to France because, quote 'country going to the dogs. foreigners coming over and expecting to change to their culture and language, etc, etc... then going over to France or Spain to do exactly the same. I'm so glad to hear you have the right attitude. I recently heard of a village in the Dordogne where the village shop and cafe are now owned by Brits who can;t speak French- so locals feel totally alleniated. It's wrong in the UK, and it's wrong in France or spain, or wherever.  Meilleures salutations

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[quote user="odile"]. I was playing devil's advocate, and sorry if I ruffled a few feathers. I know so many Brits who have moved to France because, quote 'country going to the dogs. foreigners coming over and expecting to change to their culture and language, etc, etc... then going over to France or Spain to do exactly the same. [/quote]

You might try to get to know a few people on here before making sweeping statements about 'copping  out', to give you a start Woolly lives in France, hence being a regular poster on a forum of the same name!!!

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Odile - no offence was taken.

I just hope that Jammy finds the advice everyone has offered is helpful.  We all go through the angst of thinking 'should we have brought our children here? and all mothers beat themselves up about all sorts of minor things, let alone making a brave decision to give a child the gift of fluency in two languages.

Sharing this angst on an open Forum is always challenging because there are people on here who are very negative and probably make any poster feel even worse.  Thank goodness, there are enough of us on here to give a balanced view and offer, hopefully, constructive advice.

Sharing a problem is a good idea because it shows that you care.  Seeking advice is a Good Thing.

I find that motherhood is incredibly hard (and I'm a mother of 4 and a guardian of 3 more).  I was a successful professional before becoming a mother and people paid to hear my advice - and listened to it without criticism.  But as a mother, everyone puts in their two pennies' worth about what you should do and what you shouldn't do etc and it reeks havoc with your self-worth.  It gets worse when you do anything radical, like home education (which is what I did originally) or educating your children in France (which is what I do now).  Shock horror, you've done something that others don't do.

The only thing that you can say is 'do what you feel is best'.

Good luck, Jammy.  Let us know how you get on, even if it is by PM (Private Message).

 

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