Is there a teacher here??

[Lori]

I am trying to find some answers to a question regarding the French education system.  I'd rather not post the question as it is rather detailed.  If I recall correctly, there are a couple of posters on the forum who teach here (France).  If so, can anyone tell me who they are so I might PM them the question.  They may not have the answer or want to reply, but I'd like to try.  If they could even just point me to the right direction, that would help.

I have sent off  the basic question to the Minstry of Education, but I have no idea when or if they will reply.

Thanks.

[Frenchie]

Hello, I am French and I teach in a high school, you can PM me, no pb !

A bientôt !

[Lori]

I have sent you a PM.  I appreciate any help or avenue you can offer.

[Lori]

I forgot to say, if you wish to reply in French, that is perfectly fine.  I know sometimes it is much faster/easier to type in your own language maternelle.  Please do not hesitate to do that.  I understand French very well, even if my written grasp is somewhat limited.

Here is my post on a French forum.  Forgive my bad French.

http://forum.doctissimo.fr/viepratique/scolarite-education/3eme/question-sujet_5170_1.htm

Thank you for offering to help me.  I am really quite upset.

Lori

[jimbob]

Hi

My friend Isabelle is an ex university teacher, she is french but is fluent in English.  She knows the system very well over her and I am sure she can answer your question.

Please PM or email me for her email address.

Regards

jimbob

 

Post edited by a moderator.  Please do not post personal contact details on the forum.

[Chancer]

Lori

If the situation is unchanged since you posted your question on the French forum I would say that you are worrying unecessarily.

The phrase in the letter that concerned you is fairly standard and is intended to get the attention of those families that dont take their childrens education as seriously as you do.

I thought all the replies were very good and reasonable especially that of Trini29

[Lori]

Yes, J.R., as you could see (from the other forum), you are not the first person to say that I am worrying too much.  However, having dealt with this school for 3 years now, I take everything they say seriously.

The sentence in the letter that most concerned me would concern any parent - IMO.  I just want to know if they can, in fact, refuse her return and at the very last minute too - end of August.  And, if so, under what laws?  If they did refuse her one week prior to the re-starting of school, they are really playing with her head (and mine) as it would be a mad dash to try to find another school and what is to say the other school will accept her???

I find the way this entire situation has been handled extremely wrong.  I should have been told this long before now !

As you can see, my extreme worry is turning into anger...

Sorry.

[Chancer]

"Calm down dear!" as Michael Winner said [:)]

Seriously though being an optimist I dont ever look for the worst scenario in life but I do have a sister that does and it never fails to amaze me how she can create things to worry herself about.

The scenario in the letter would only be invoked as a last resort and after the failure of negotiations between all of you, usually because the parents either dont care, are absent or adversarial towards the school, it is just in the letter to set the scene for the negotiation/mediation to ensure that the parent realises it is considered to be serious - and you clearly do.

There is no suggestion of them doing this without notice and certainly not during or at the end of the summer break, it is to me inconceivable that anyone in education would take time from their summer break to do such a thing, they will be too busy enjoying their holidays which you should do also.

However, if you are like my dear sis then you wont be able to relax until the first day of the new term, I will ask my girlfriend if you like, she works as a chef de la division for the Rectorat (Education Nationale), any such decision would have to go through them for clearance and I can assure you that they will all be on holiday, any skeleton staff remaining will have no authority to agree such a drastic and unprecedented course of action such as is worrying you.

[Lori]

Thank you J.R., the voice of reason.  Yes, I am trying to calm down.  I suppose I may be a bit like your sister, but threat letters do not go down well with me.  I have never liked being threatened and that is not likely to change.

I am finding a few other organizations that exist to help in these types of situations.  I am trying to get appointments with them, but I think many are closed for holidays.  I'll keep trying.

Now, off for a swim.

Thank you.

[Mackyfrance]

Hi Lori

My french neighbour is going through the same with her son who is only 13 but has just finished troisieme. He is highly intelligent but has not been stretched at school leading to behavioural problems. Nothing serious, just asking the profs questions that they can't answer, talking in class because he's invariably the first to finish, that sort of stuff. His notes are good.

He was thrown out of school three weeks before the brevet as the teachers felt they could not handle him anymore. Personally I think it was more a case that they couldn't deal with a pupil who was smarter than they were.

He was not allowed back to school for the revision periods and they even asked for his books back which would have prevented him doing any revision himself at home. His mother refused.

The school has done nothing to help find another school for him and have, in effect, washed their hands of him. The academy did not overrule the decision either although they expressed a bit of surprise that the school should have asked him to leave just before the brevet especially as he had not committed any serious offence.

I'm afraid it appears that this can and does happen.

I have another friend who's friend's daughter (English) was also thrown out of school at 14 as she had behavioural problems. It took several months to find a school that would take her but they asked her to leave within several weeks. She then turned 15 and her mother was informed that the French education system only has to legally educate a child up to the age of 15 and that there would be no places for her at any school. She's currently, I believe, working at McDonalds which is one of the only places in France that will take a student without the brevet.

This may not, of course, be the case with your daughter and I hope you manage to find a solution for her.

[Lori]

Those are terrible stories Macky, but I have to admit, they don't really surprise me.  I've heard similar stories before.  This is one reason I have reacted so seriously to the letter I received.  I have been told that if a school excludes a student THEY must provide the name of another school to send the child.  I have also been told that children MUST be in school up to age 16, not 15. 

Hence the reason for my original question.  Where are the rules/laws for excluding a student from a French public school???  I have always been told any parent who takes their child out of school prior to age 16 is within violation of the law.   I must be a total idiot as I simply cannot find that law.

I still haven't any answers and have gotten rather sick of scouring the web hours on end.  All public education offices seemed to have closed up for the summer now as none of them answer their phones.  So, I guess I'll just have to wait to see what happens at the meeting.  I suppose I will never hear back from the Ministry of Education.  I'll try to phone them Monday morning.  I guess they shut for summer too.  Amazing !

The letter I got wasn't even signed...

[Lori]

Just FYI, with relation to the age in which the state is obligated to take a student.   This statement is from the Ministry of Education's own website.

L'obligation scolaire

Depuis la loi Jules Ferry du 28 mars

1882, l'instruction est obligatoire. Cette obligation s'applique à

partir de 6 ans, pour tous les enfants français ou étrangers résidant

en France. À l'origine, la scolarisation était obligatoire jusqu'à

l'âge de 13 ans, puis 14 ans à partir de la loi du 9 août 1936. Depuis

l'ordonnance n°59-45 du 6 janvier 1959, elle a été prolongée jusqu'à

l'âge de 16 ans révolus.

La famille a deux possibilités : assurer

elle-même l'instruction des enfants (avec déclaration préalable) ou les

scolariser dans un établissement scolaire public ou privé.

[Lori]

Well thanks to a good friend, I have found the laws.  They outline the entire procedure and are very clear.

If anyone wants them, just let me know.  I'm not sure I can post the links here.

Now, I can breathe.

Thanks to all who have tried to help.

[Frenchie]

Good for you Lori, I tried to ring the friend I told you about many times, he called me back this morning when I was in a supermarket, said he would ring back later but heard nothing from him since then..

Now you re sorted out it is OK..

Bonnes vacances!

[Lori]

Thank you Frenchie.  I knew you were working on it too. 

Apparently, there are procedures that MUST take place before any exclusion of one month or more.  I had never even heard of a Conseil de Discipline before and apparently this must take place prior to such exclusions.  I suppose they could still ask for that, but considering we are talking about a simple bad attitude now and then and too much chattering at times in class, I think it might be somewhat hard to get the necessary group together for such a 'crime.'  Who knows.  I'm sure I will find out.

Have a fluent French/English speaker going to the meeting with me too, so I feel better knowing I can convey anything I feel necessary; something I was worried about since these people have a way of making me nervous and on edge.  Something I feel they get pleasure in doing.

[Frenchie]

Is your daughter in a  " college public" or a " college privé" ?

Do you know if this rule of " conseil de discipline " first also applies to  " colleges privés "? because I know a boy who was excluded without even un conseil de discipline, he had some behaviour problems, such as rude words to pupils , being stubborn with teachers etc...

If you have the help of a person , you will feel much better..

Courage, et gardez bon espoir !!

[Lori]

She is in a public college Frenchie.

One of the many laws regarding discipline and / or exclusion state this:

DECRET

Décret n°85-924 du 30 août 1985 relatif aux établissements publics locaux d'enseignement.

version consolidée au 19 mars 2008

So, I take it the law refers to public schools only.  I fear private schools would take not one moment of back talk or rudeness (not that they should either !)..

[Clair]

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006065139&dateTexte=20080718

[Lori]

Yes, that is one of the laws outlining exclusions, etc.  It is fascinating to read all the laws relating to discipline.  There are plenty of them (all accessible by starting with that same link).  I didn't realize a pregnant student can be refused entry too.  I asked daughter if she knew about that and she said no, she hadn't seen a pregnant student at school.  I found the decret on the same legifrance site.

Really fascinating reading.  I'm not kidding.