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A'Levels or BAC?


odile
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having been born and bred in France and Switzerland - and after 38 years in the UK, including 25 years teaching in several schools in the 10-19 age range- the main differences are at Post 15/16. A friend of mine who teaches design in Berlin, and another from an art school in Prague- both asked why in the UK we have so many talented young musicians, designers, artists, etc - and they were amazed to hear that in the UK students on do 2 years at A'Level, and only 4 subjects in year 12 (3 until v. recently) and 3 for A'Level. that means that students who are not scientific or linguists, can continue to study post 15/16 in only their favourite, or 'best at' subjects. In no other country I know of can students specialise so early - and chose only art subjects, or only sciences, or only languages- or so called 'soft options' like psychology, sociology, Business, etc (I personally don;t believe these are actually soft options - results are often very poor as students just do not have the maturity to understand those subjects in depth). There are great advantages in the UK system - as an inability to grasp physics or German for instance, does not prevent you from going into further Ed. A friend's daughter in Switzerland is currently in total crisis- she is an extemely talented violinist and singer, but she needs the BAC to enter the Conservatoire - failed twice by 1/2 point in maths one year, and 1/2 in German the next. When I was on a teacher exchange in East Berlin, 2 students from the Gymnasium (6th form college) did a Thelma and Louise from the top of the high rise school as they had failed their first year. i shall never forget that. On the other hand, we are creating scientists who never study anything but science from the age of 16 - and perhaps have little empathy with others. For the past 8 years I have been hosting small groups of students for English language courses from all over Europe. All of them were shocked that students here only study 4 then 3 subjects at A'Level. A couple of them decided to take a year out to come and study here for one year so they could become bi-lingual and really enjoy studying only subjects they like. As my last (state) school has a boarding house, this was possible- parents only paying for the boarding and not for the schooling. They both really enjoyed the experience. In France, Germany, and all other European countries - it is just not possible to go on to Uni without a pass in all subjects. If you gave me a post stamp to write on, I wouldn't be able to remember one thing from chemistry or physics- but I would have loved the opportunity to study Spanish or Italian instead, or indeed one of the soft options mentionned above. How do you feel your children will fare with the full BAC system?

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I was talking to two of my (French) ESOL students only a couple of days ago at our end-of-term  drinks in the local pub. One of them was saying that, of course, in England it was stupid that kids were "forced" to specialise so young, and that the BAC was better as it made students continue with a broader range of subjects until they were older and more able to make decisions about their future. When I explained that students in English schools (I'm being careful to say "English" as it's all I'm familiar with) were taught subjects like cookery, carpentry, music and art right the way from age 11, and therefore had much more of an opportunity to "experience" these before having to make their minds up whether to pursue them and possibly choose one of these as a career path, she began to see things in a slightly different light. It was interesting, because the 2 French girls involved in this discussion were very different: one (who is also dyslexic) had been considered a "failure" at school, told not to bother redoubling, and told by her teachers to "just get out and get a job", whereas the other went on from the BAC to further studies and has an accountancy qualification - but was bemoaning the fact that now she'll always have to work in that field. This was doubly frustrating for her, as her brother ( not really the academic type) had gone on from school at 16 to train as a painter and decorator and was not only loving it, but has just won a national prize for his skills. She sees her brother loving what he's chosen to do, and having the chance to possibly start his own business, and she feels trapped on a career path that she doesn't really enjoy. Yet he was considered the "failure" by his teachers for not being at all academic, and she, by the same standards, was the "success".

My own children, wholly educated in the UK, would probably have struggled with the BAC. One's at Uni studying sculpture and did two art subjects and English at A2 level and History at AS level, the other is awaiting his A2 results having done Double Applied Science and Business Studies to A2, and having completed an NVQ Level 2 in catering during his first year at 6th form college. As both of them KNEW, really, really KNEW what they wanted to do from the age of about 14 or 15, I think they would have struggled with the BAC, and indeed the French system. My two French students were amazed that access to University in the UK is now dependent (in many, if not most cases) on a "points" system, and that success in AS  and A2 levels is crucial in order to obtain a University place for most subjects. They seemed to think this a more equitable system than in France.

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if only we could take the best of both systems - and actually manage to help all students achieve the best of what they have got to offer! What a great thing students in the Uk can continue to achieve great things even if they are not academic in the traditional sense. but what a shame our talented linguists who want ot do medicine or vet. med. etc, have to drop languages at 15/16. they don;t even date continue for AS, as they worry languages are such a hard subject that this would take too much time away form sciences, where they have to achieve very high grades to get into Uni. And such a shame too that subjects like history and geography struggle to get numbers - when these subjects would really help understand the world we live in better.

Fascinating too that philosophy or even Latin are such an important subjects in France, and yet unknown in the UK (bar a couple of 'public' schools).

And what a shame (i feel) that so many 'unis' in France are totally private and only acessible to the rich - like Engineering schools and Business Schools. At least in the UK students who work hard and who are talented do have access to all unis, including Oxbridge (even if they often don;t apply!)

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Yes, we had the conversation about the value of philosophy as a "key" subject in France, as well. "But it makes us able to think for ourselves" was the argument of one of the French girls. Tongue in cheek, I wonder when that ability is drummed out of people, because in many of my business dealings with France I find "thinking for yourself" is a skill which, if acquired, is either lost or used sparingly[Www].

Long before starting to worry about the need for students to abandon the study of MFL at 16, we should have been worrying about a Government decision to allow secondary school students to drop MFL altogether before GCSE, and the lack of any real impetus to develop linguists (or people with abilities in other disciplines AND a language). I was talking to a French guy who works in the college I teach at, and he was preparing students for AS and A2 French oral exams. He was horrified that most don't even know how which verbs take etre and which avoir in the past tense, and baffled as to how on earth they would manage if and when they were ever introduced to subjunctives. When I was at at school, I'm certain I'd done subjunctives by the time I did "A" Level French.

It IS a shame that students can't study more subjects (to GCSE, never mind "A" Level - both my kids were restricted as to the number of humanities subjects they could take up to GCSE). On the other hand, there is probably a happy medium between that situation, and one which forces students to continue studying subjects in which they have no interest, and for which they have no aptitude.

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quite true though that the French system is much better (!) at piling knowledge is students' brains followed by 'regurgitation' - whereas the UK system places more (intelligent) emphasis on getting students to think and analyse (but perhaps at the detriment of basic essential knowledge) for themselves. Certainly as a child the UK system would have suited me much better. I had a student from rouen university recently whose only oral exam at the end of the first year was to read a text in phonetics. No conversation, no text analysis, no opinion or debate skills!

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Hi all

This is really interesting because the school i work at in England is introducing the IBAC next year as an option for our new 6th form.  It has already been said by some of thestaff who have been on the training that it will be a strugle for our less academically gifted pupils, and that the Btecs , NVQs and aprentice ships will cover those.  Does seem a good compromise?

Judith

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I think that this is a fascinating subject.

I have no experience of the French educational system, but as a (now retired) lecturer in the lower reaches of the UK university sector did come across French students from time to time. They reported that the essential differences between an English university and a French was that in England their opinions and views were respected, they were not just being spoonfed but taking part in a dialogue. (They also thought, from a student perspective, that our university was better resourced than a French university would be.) From what I recall in discussions with French people, "philosophy" in schools is really "history of ideas" rather than "learning to think".

Although government action makes it difficult, in Britain there is a sense that learning is for life and opportunities for changing one's own career path are readily available. I don't know if it is still going but I recall a scheme at St George's Medical School, Tooting to accept non-traditionally qualified applicants for medical training (ie applicants with arts degrees etc). I entered university at the age of 30 with no qualification beyond "O" level and developed sufficiently to stay in higher education for the rest of my working life.

My own view is that the real purpose of university is to develop lifelong skills of analysis, research, presentation, synthesis and so on within a specific subject based context. No-one can see how any discipline or profession will change in the future, to have the skills to cope with change is what is important.

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[quote user="Mme poivre"]

Hi all

This is really interesting because the school i work at in England is introducing the IBAC next year as an option for our new 6th form.  It has already been said by some of thestaff who have been on the training that it will be a strugle for our less academically gifted pupils, and that the Btecs , NVQs and aprentice ships will cover those.  Does seem a good compromise?

Judith

[/quote]

That's just the sort of thing that makes my blood boil.........Sorry, personal experience again, but one which highlights the stupidity of a system (whether English or French) which assumes that ONLY the "less academically gifted" will WANT to study certain subjects. Or, in other words, if you're thick, you can learn a trade. I think this attitude will be perpetuated unless there's a huge rethink. Why should the education of the "less academically gifted" be a compromise at all? And why should it be assumed that the academically gifted will never want or need to so much as change a plug or cook a decent meal?

My younger son wanted to continue to study catering. However, he also wanted to go to University. One of the 6th form colleges he visited before finally deciding where to study offered him the chance to study on a part-time NVQ course with other students who were coming in on day release. This was the only place he could study, becausethe closes place to us didn't offer catering anyway, and his third option would only entertain him either doing a full-time NVQ without A levels, or doing A levels and then staying on for another year to do an NVQ.

Having accepted the place offered at the college which was going to allow him to study A levels and NVQ together, AND attended an interview AND discussed how this would be achieved from a timetabling perspective, we then got a letter, out of the blue, just as his GCSE's began, saying "you can't study A Levels and NVQ together, please choose another "A" Level". Just that, nothing else. After several fruitless phone calls during which I spoke with Heads of Subject and various others, the response was "It'll be far too hard for him to do both, no-one's ever asked for this before, let alone done it, blah blah"  And yet, he never asked to be allowed to do this, the college had suggested it to him. So I wrote a letter to the Principal, outlining what had happened, and explaining that it wasn't exactly condusive to him sitting his GCSE's in a calm and happy frame of mind to be given this information after so many months of assuming he'd got a place to study what he wanted to study. I got a reply from the Principal, apologising profusely and accepting him to do what he had requested.

OK, very personal, an isolated case, but nonetheless............all of this comes about because there are so-called "academic" pathways, and then there's BTEC, NVQ etc. Barriers are created, which prevent or inhibit students from studying what they want to study. We were talking earlier in this thread about students having to choose and having to specialise and whether a broader range of subjects was a good or a bad thing. To me, this is the "happy medium" issue again. If we are going to prevent or inhibit the range of choices available to students, then it can be counter-productive. If we're asking them, at 16, to choose the subjects they're going to study in order to take the first steps towards shaping the rest of their lives, then limiting their choices in this way is just plain wrong.

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Oh, Betty, this strikes such a chord with me.  Here is a tale of two sisters (and no, this is not Soap.)

The elder one is considered to be "dim", and the younger one bright and gifted.  At the age of 16, having studied really hard (something she enjoys) and scraping by with 4 "O" levels, the older one wants to stay on at school and at least try for A levels, in particular the two subjects which she is really interested in and good at - English and History, and she wants to study Politics and thus try "British Constitution" (the nearest one could get in those days.)  After weeks of wrangling with the school, the parents manage to persuade them to keep her on.

The younger one, meanwhile,  does absolutely no work at school whatsoever (as she finds accademic stuff boring and cloying and just wants to have a good time) but gets 11 O-levels with very little effort on her part.  Everybody expects her to go on to University and have a brilliant accademic career but she's not very interested.  She grudgingly stays on at school, takes 3 A level subjects - does well in one, scrapes by in another and fails in the third.  At which point she leaves home, gets a job working and follows her heart and does what she really thinks she's wanted to do all along - an outdoor job doing hard physical work.

Sister number one gets fantastic A level grades and goes on to University, and eventually spends her working life in accademia, which suits her and those who employ her.

Sister number two discovers she is really bored with manual labour, gets a job as a clerk with a company whose career opportunites are diverse and merit based, and eventually discovers the thing that she is reallly good at and interested in, and ends up near the top of her profession.

I guess the moral of my story is that not everybody knows what they want to do or be at the age of 16, nor the best way to achieve it.  What should be important in an education system, is flexibility - but, if your job is to "process" hundreds of kids a year, this is surely the most difficult to achieve and the reason why those who don't quite fit into the little space that's been mapped out for them, often drop through the net.

Years ago, my father was headteacher of a Secondary Modern school.  Under his headship, many of the pupils who had never been offered this option up until then, took and passed GCEs although these schools were considered to be for those who were not "accademic" - whatever that may mean.  You never know until you are allowed to try.

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Hi Betty - in 'my' 6th Form, many students mixed A'Levels with NVQs or other Business courses quite happily.

It's amazing that just across a bit of water - we encounter an education system so vastly different to our own. And yes the UK A'Level system is unique in the world - with all it's advantages and disadvantages. Friends who teach engineering in France and Germany can;t believe how low the level on Brit students is, who often don;t have a grasp of basic physics. another friend who teaches trainee GPs (himself a product of our Grammar schools) - says the level of basic knowledge of current students is lowering every year. But yes, the UK system is much better generally at ' making students think for themsleves, and allowing students to mix academic and vocational courses in order to get tailored education for the individual, rather than one size fits all.

Still haven't heard about parents bringing up their kids in France post 16. what are your experiences out there?

And yes, it is a FASCINATING subject - and shows how travelling opens your eyes to very different ways of doing things, that we had previously completely taken for granted and considered 'normal'.

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Both of mine have done their BAC,one was a BAC Pro which was incredibly complicated but necessary as he is now a qualifed electrician from it having gained his BEP beforehand. All I can say is that some of the subjects were completely irrellevent especially Philosophy. It is important to gain your BAC in France as it opens the door to going onto the BTS for my girl and then for both of them to enter University automatically where one has already graduated last year and the boy has two more years plus to go. They would never have go this far had we remained in the UK,certainly not to Uni as we could never have afforded it. Unfortunately now, there is now work in this part of Brittany for university or BAC/BTS graduates and all the young people are leaving for foreign shores or the bigger french cities. Those who do not aim high and leave with a lower diplôme will always find manual work here on the land or sea but terrible salaries. When both my kids were at collège,it was forced upon them to choose their future careers there and then which was pretty hard and had it not been for a kind geographie teacher,my son would have not chosen electro as he is manually gifted rather than academic but prooved himself better at Lycée and now at Uni. Compared to their english cousins the system here is much harder and more intense over a longer period with less choice in subjects but then,their cousins have ended up working in shops and on building sites.
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Both mine have been educated in France too. My son passed his Bac in 2003, did Prepas and got a place in the Ecole Veterinaire in Toulouse in 2006. My daughter got her Bac (2 days ago) and has been accepted at Toulouse Uni to do Pharmacie.

I found the broad base of subjects was very good for them - at Prepas you have to carry on with the Bac subjects for another 2/3 years. They are both very rounded in all subjects. They didn't excel in the subjects that had little interest for them for their future chosen careers but this hasn't stopped them succeeding as their science subjects carried a much higher co-efficient in the exams.

We all laughed at our son getting 7/20 for Philo in his bac until our daughter managed a magnificent 3/20 for the subject!!!! IT didn't stop her getting a Mention Assez Bien however..........

I like the French system. I chose the wrong A Levels when I was at school and had to drop out because I just couldn't cope. Had I had the chance to take a range of subjects things might have been different. Ho Hum!

 

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Hi, unfortunately I cannot offer any insight or bits of wisdom, I just wanted to say what an interesting thread this is.  However, I am becoming more confused/concerned by the minute!  We are moving to France in January.  One of the main attractions, we thought anyway when we first started talking about this 5 years ago, was the chance of a superior education.  However ironically it seems as time passes this "main attraction" is now becoming one of my main concerns about whether life in France will suit us.  Our children are only 6 and 4 so very young and adaptable but it seems all I hear lately about French education is negative.  We want to move for the reasons so many others choose to - i.e. better quality of life, safety of our children etc.  However, it seems that educationally they would be better educated here in UK?  Is there a clear cut answer to this?

Thanks

Fi

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I have no first hand experience of this but my BiL and his family have lived near Marseille for some years now.  He is head honcho in the Biology department at Marseilles Uni' so knows a little about education.  His take on this is that the French education system (which all three of his children have now had total experience of) is very fixed and blinkered, and is fine in theory, but certainly not suited to all children, regardless.  All three are now going back to the UK to finish of their educations, the older two to uni' and the youngest to do his A levels.  They have managed fine and coped, and are totally bilingual which undoubtedly will be a real plus for their futures.  But they are extremely bright kids and would probably have done well wherever they had been educated.  It does seem, however, that if you don't cope, you are often left behind in French schools. 

On the other hand, I suspect that France is much like Britain and some schools and teachers are good, and some are bad.  You can be lucky or unlucky in both countries.

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Hi Fi,  (sounds funny!)  the answer to your question is NO. The 2 systems are VASTLY different, but it is not a question of better or worse. It is horses for courses. If your children are bright, they may well do very well in the French system. It is such a complicated subject - after 37 years of comapring both - I know the english system would have been better for me. I am not stupid by any means, but physics and chemistry, and to some extent maths - have never excited me- thanks to a brother (PHDGrenoble  in info. tech in 1966 - when most of us didn't know what a computer was) - I just managed to scrape through in those subjects, excelling in all the others. I would say if you are going to  make the move, the sooner the better- as your kids are young enough to adapt. Personally I would never go and live in a country unless I have a good grasp of the language (never mind the grammar - communication is the only thing that matters at this stage) - I don't know what your situation is. Be aware that prepa schools (where 18/19 year olds spend 1-3 years preparing for UNI beyond the bac) can be very expensive. Some of the better unis (called Grandes Ecoles) for engineering and Business can be vastly expensive too. the French post Bac system is very elitist. And yes, like in the old 11+ system, it is very difficult to continue to further Ed. in France if you don't follow the 'right'

path. In the UK there is always a way round for the later developer, or in case of a few bad years Teenage crisis, etc). And there are multiple variations of the BAC, some regarded as 'soft options' and others regarded as 'the real thing'. Confused - I am so sorry- but it IS very confusing.

One of my daughters spent a year At the Ecole de Commerce in Marseille (on an exchange with Aston Uni). She hated it as it was very snobby and elitist - very BCBG (bon chic bon genre = Sloany). Both daughters would have done well in either system - much brighter than mum (dad is a medic = good at science!).

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  • 3 months later...
Two state schools in Leicester are now offering the International Baccalaureate- instead of A'Levels - Wyggeston Queen Elizabeth- where the Attenborough bros studied, and Groby Community college. Good take up apparently. Interesting.

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Mainly word of mouth I am afraid plus talking around over the years in Universities. But I think if you look at the quality of the A level syllabus for Chi, Physics and Maths then the IntBac is wider, less depth. What you might do is fone the admissions officer (an academic) of Imperial College and ask or even write.
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I studied geography at a British university, during which I did an exchange with a French university.

The lectures (which were 2nd year lectures) at the French university were the equivalent of 2nd year 'A' Level.  I realise that geography may be a special case because in France, it is taught as a joint subject with history and not individually.  However, I would suggest that a Bac student would struggle reading geography at a top British university .

 

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Have any of you thought of Belgian Universities? Generally cheaper and better than French Universities as there is no creaming for Grands Ecoles. Many classes can be in English. Often the facilities are good, especially in science. But good French would be needed. High standards and tough exams though. Either a three or four year degree

 

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Odile - you wanted to hear from families who had experienced both worlds i.e. schooling in France then studies at UK universities.

We're a British family who arrived in France 16 years ago when the children were 7, 4 and 9 months. They all enjoyed Primaire here, Collège was a pain (the adolescent years !) & Lycée was hard work but enriching - I felt they appreciated the sense of being considered as adults by their profs.

My eldest did a Bac ES - only just scraped through because he didn't work at all, & I feel that you cannot get by here with last minute cramming & the fact that you have to do all those subjects ! He like the other 2 hated Maths, major problem - I was told by lots of people that Maths is the most important subject in France. He then went to the UK to do a BA in Politics - enjoyed it, loved Manchester & was easily able to cope with the work. In fact many of his fellow students were French. He thanked his Philosophy prof here for teaching him how to write a "proper essay"! (Ah the French & their set rules for writing a Commentaire, Dissertation or a Sujet d'invention !) 2 years later he's done lots of short term jobs both in the UK & here, just to earn money for his travels in the Far East, & was just about to start a Masters but at last minute decided it was not for him. So he is back at home for the moment - a real product of both countries but wishes to live in neither. I have no idea what he'll be doing in a year's time ......

My daughter did a Bac L & is now studying French & Film Studies in the UK. Again lots of her fellow students are French. She had a very Arty time at Lycee with lots of music & theatre, worked a bit harder than her brother & got a Mention Assez Bien which was just what she needed to get into her chosen Uni. She spent a year working in Paris as part of her year abroad, & with that experience she wants to work in Communications & Public Relations (in France I think) Now in her last year she's doing some quite useful modules in French such as translation. At school in France she was always considered as "fragile" academically - again "nul" at Maths & Sciences, but even with a Bac L she still had to do papers in those subjects & managed them reasonably well. Once in the UK, for the first time she felt herself to be more cultured than the average British kid she met, and was actually happy to have been forced to do all those subjects she didn't like at the time. I'm not implying that the UK is "easier" - far from it, but it has certainly given her confidence. In fact she tells me she's aiming for a First (I'll only believe that if it happens !)

And finally my "baby" is in Terminale - one more Bac to go & then hopefully I shall be free of the French Education system ! He, unlike the other 2, is at a Franco-German Lycee because they have an bilingual Anglophone OIB programme which he has followed since Sixieme. Lots of his fellow students are from purely French families who have worked abroad in the UK or US mainly, and on return to France the parents wanted their kids, now fluent in English, to be able to continue studying English at a higher level.

The Lycee is very strict - used to a very hardworking set of students, & my lad hates it - he's only sticking it because he loves the English Literature. They have been told it's the equivalent of English A-level. On the French side he's doing a Bac ES & once again unfortunately hates Maths, but it's a major part of the syllabus. But he knows that academically this will be the worst year he'll have to face (as he also won't be studying any longer in France)

I know that several people on this Forum have said that French education is about parrot fashion learning & regurgitating the facts, but I feel that at this level, it's more difficult than that. There are strict rules for answering any question, & to go "Hors Sujet" means losing lots of marks. Whilst imagination has never counted for much here, and lots of French people I know deride that, the students are expected to come up with lots of ideas to back up their statements (just not too original ones however or we're into losing marks again !)

A final point about financing furthur education. For our youngest, he has to face the higher fees in the UK - £3000 a year I believe, to be paid later (my other 2 were on the old system) so he is considering carefully whether he wants to go to the UK & incur that debt. To stay in France to study however, I have always understood costs a lot less, even for Prepa & then the Grand Ecoles which select on ability (the dreaded Concours). I have a British friend, married to a Frenchman & she's dreading that her youngest will want to go to the UK because she says they can't afford it. Her older ones have all studied here - Engineering School or Medicine & she says the cost is minimal.

I think I've said everything I planned to say .... this has been our family's experience, & I certainly can't say that one system is better than another - but they are certainly very different !

Rose
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  • 1 month later...
Could I just point out that the IB and the French Bac are two totally different things so don't confuse them.  Unis that take the IB may not necessarily accept the French Bac.

We've done the college years in France but are now returning to the UK as I don't feel the education system is really preparing them for living in a global world.

I would disagree that a bright child will do well in the French system. I think there are a lot of ifs and buts. If your child is an auditory/visual learner then they'll be fine with the rote learning and regurgitation that form a staple of the French system. If you have a kinaesthetic learner, or one who wants to have their own opinion about anything then France is not for you at all. France is years behind in the psychology of learning and the system is set up (according to a French teacher) for the average child, not for either the very bright or the less able. As a result, many many children lose interest in their education long before they are able to achieve anything.

My very bright, but kinaesthetic son has practically given  up on his education. Death by worksheet is how he describes it. He's been amazed at how little his peers know about the world in general and how little interest they have in it. He finds the whole system completely demotivating and uninspiring.   To be honest, from an education point of view I think it's been a complete disaster.

I  couldn't say one is better than the other, it depends on the child but it's definitely not a superior education system, nor is it like the old grammar schools or any of the other things people use to describe it.

I think its actually very narrow and the curriculum certainly doesn't meet the needs of the modern world. To be really harsh, I think it's just preparing 'cannon fodder' for the future bosses who come through the Grand Ecoles. I think that's why so much more is spent per head on the students who go there, rather than the ordinary student.

At University level, having spent time at Uni in the UK and Paris, I think the UK is streets ahead though. French Universities have poor reputations, high drop out rates and some of the worst graduation rates in Europe.

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Rose and Ginger - thank you both for your really interesting comments/observations. they might help other parents undertand the differences better.

I have many friends who are teachers all over Europe - I have a Swiss Bac, but an English Degree - 2 girls with English A'Levels - 1 with a UK Degree with one year in France. It is funny as when I have this discussion with European friends, they all say the Bac/Abitur system is much better - and UK friends insist the English one is miles ahead. If only we could take the best of all and make the perfect system! But it just wouldn't work as one suits one child/student best, is not for the other.

But we can definitely agree that the French system is old-fashioned and places mor emphasis on knowledge/facts - whereas the English system encourages much more analysis, debate and creativity.

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