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I'm sorry about your bad experience Jura, but as a teacher here in France and having English teenagers in 2 of my classes I can tell you they are perfectly well adapted.

And doing well, and appreciated by all the teachers.

So, you see, you can't make general statements as you do.

As someone wrote, some kids struggle, others don't .

I KNEW my son would struggle in England, that's why I took the decision to stay in France. ( I wanted to cross the Channel the other way ..)

 

 

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Hi

 

I have been in France three months with a 12 and 10 year old (both could not speak french),I have had no concernes with either of them at school ,they are both picking up french quickly,both have french lessons at school...The eldest is already top twice in science ,very good because he can only pick a few words out of the questions..

I did give both children the choice where to live and both were happy to give france a go...

 

So far so good....[8-|]

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With all due respect Jura, I don't think your post is in the slightest bit helpful.  As so many other posters have said, here and on other threads, some kids struggle and some flourish.  To make sweeping generalisations on the basis of your own bad experiences is wrong and very unhelpful to others who are looking for practical advice. We are due to move in March with our 6 and 4 year old.  We have decided to give it a year to 18 months before we commit to buy here and will rent out our house in the UK.  If it works out and they are happy great, if they are unhappy then we will go home.  I know families who have children doing perfectly well in the French education system.  So yes France has its problems like anywhere else but it also has some very positive points.

Anyway good luck to you Angus and Barbara, hope it works out well..

 

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We have been here for a whole month, so I can't make any great pronouncements from experience,  However, my three children (8, 6 and 5) are all at the village primary (55 pupils in total!).  The two older ones are very happy, and despite the obvious language issues always come home very enthusiastic, and they even volunteer information about their day (a very novel experience!).  They get  a extra help with French language three times a week.  Before this we attended an international school in The Hague, which was a good school but rather overwhelming for them - there was no 'bounce' on the way home unlike now. My youngest is autistic and goes to school for a couple of hours in the morning, however we are now trying to get in the system for extra help for him or a place at a special school so we hope that he will be in a good routine in the New Year.  We have had plenty of help and support from the school and the education authority in this respect.  Now all we have to do is sort out social security......[8-)]

Our experience has been pretty positive thus far.  The kids think no school on Wednesday is heaven (I don't - I have to entertain them!).  They are very friendly with the other children, bo big friendships yet, but we have to give it time.

My adivce (for what it's worth) - talk to them before starting school and explain what to expect (positive and negative), try and visit the school with the children so they know what it looks like (and smells like), and relax - it won't be perfect from day one, but do try and stay positive for your sake and theirs.

Good luck with everything.

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One big difference at secondary level, is that in the UK all students have a form tutor, and a Head of year- to help students with any difficulties, liaise with other teachers, educational psychologists, and other professionals. Teachers in the UK have to remain on site for the duration of the school day, whereas in France (and most or all other european countries) specialist teachers only attend for the duration of their lessons/direct teaching time. When I was a 6th form tutor, I had one hour a week timetabled to have regular interviews with all the students in my form (some I taught, most I didn't), to make sure I kept track with their progress and dealt with problems before they became serious. (with truancy, bullying, difficulties in some subjects or with some teachers, etc). Teachers in France do not normally have contact with their students apart from specialist subject lessons.

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I'm afraid I agree with Jura. Our own experience has served to show that education in France is just as much a postcode lottery as the UK.  No extra help for any of my children (not that I expected it) they were just left to sink or swim. Racism on a weekly basis from the surveillants and one particular teacher, poor standard of teaching, some teachers who shouldn't be left in charge of a dog, never mind children, a narrow, proscribed curriculum, indendent thought positively discouraged.

I don't see any benefit for our children to stay here and so we are leaving.

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[quote user="odile"]One big difference at secondary level, is that in the UK all students have a form tutor, and a Head of year- to help students with any difficulties, liaise with other teachers, educational psychologists, and other professionals. Teachers in the UK have to remain on site for the duration of the school day, whereas in France (and most or all other european countries) specialist teachers only attend for the duration of their lessons/direct teaching time. When I was a 6th form tutor, I had one hour a week timetabled to have regular interviews with all the students in my form (some I taught, most I didn't), to make sure I kept track with their progress and dealt with problems before they became serious. (with truancy, bullying, difficulties in some subjects or with some teachers, etc). Teachers in France do not normally have contact with their students apart from specialist subject lessons.

[/quote]

An interesting observation. I wonder: would it be fair to say that teachers in the UK have increasingly been expected to take on the role of parent while in France teachers are expected to teach with parenting left to parents?

Perhaps we've been just plain lucky, but I've been more than happy with the quality of education my children have received over the past five years. The comment about "independent thought" being discouraged does not tally with my experience, though I would agree that there is a requirement for childen to learn what is being taught before indulging in flights of fancy, and that that can be quite harsh on those not inclined to work in that way.

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 Maybe we have also just been lucky as our 6 1/2 years have proven very positive as far as the education system is concerned.  We had two others educated in the UK prior to coming here and our 15 year old is now in Lycee.  Obviously the odd hiccup has occured as would happen anywhere but by and large I feel that the French system has an edge to the English one (in our experience - can't speak for others) in the sense of making sure the child has a thorough grounding in the basics before moving on to the next stage of the subject concerned.  Though the school in the UK was a good one I think that this point was sometimes missed, moving on in the curriculum before ensuring a complete grasp of the ground covered. 
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I too have a positive experience of the education system here - after 14 years I have one who is two years off qualifying as a vet and an 18 year old who is her first year of Pharmacy (I will let you know if she gets a place for 2nd year after the concours in May!!).

We did the small village school, slightly bigger canton college, large town Lycee, City further education route - have been very involved at every stage (knowledge not interference) and have two very happy young adults!!!!

 

 

 

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The problem in France for young people is not the education system as such, but the very poor job prospects faced when leaving education. Youth unemployment has been a systemic problem in France and amongst the worst in Europe for many years, hence the large young French working population in London.
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Yes, good luck to you all, especially Amey. I can't emphasise more how important it is for ALL of you to really make an effort to improve your French. Teachers, school staff, doctors, hospitals, vets, Maires and staff, plumbers, carpenters and garages, and more - often get very annoyed with British people who just shout louder and louder in English. If you do make the effort to speak French, however badly at first- with whatever accent and with very wobbly grammaire- people WILL respect you, listen to you and try and help. but especially in areas where there are many 'ex pats'- the locals do get fed up and feel that immigrants should make more effort and show respect for the country they have chosen to live in and its people.

So well done to you and all your family for trying your best...  Joyeux Noel et Bonne Annee a tous.

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It's interesting that most of the positive comments come from people who's children are in primaire. I think the teaching in primaire is pretty sound, it's when you get to college that the problems start. Even the French government admits that college is the weak link in the education chain and across the different 'France' fora, there is a distinct disquiet about college education.. 

I think that children who go through primaire will generally do well but from what I've seen of the children who start off in college, it's very difficult and our own experience is that the curriculum is very poor and totally out of date. I believe it hasn't been changed since the 1950s but I could be wrong - I'm sure someone will correct me if I am!  It does nothing to prepare students for functioning in the global marketplace that the world has become. It seems to just provide 'employees' to work for the elite from the Grandes Ecoles and doesn't seem to do much to encourage any sort of higher expectations of what could be achieved.

I would echo what a previous poster said about jobs for British immigrants in France.  In my work I deal with many many bilingual departments in French banks, large companies etc and I've yet to find even ONE British person employed there. Their bilingual employees are all French people who speak English (with various degrees of competence) rather than British people who speak French.  I'm really hoping that someone will put me right here and tell me about companies they know that employ bilingual British people, otherwise the outlook is pretty depressing.

To the OP I can only say that unless you try it, you'll never know. You child could either flourish or fail and I don't know if there's really anything which would indicate which way they go until you actually try it.  I've met very bright children who've not succeeded at all and less bright ones who've done very well.

The education system is very different being very reliant on rote learning with limited opportunity for creative activities, story writing etc. Children are expected to learn their lessons off by heart and the majority of work seems to consist of filling in worksheets.  IT isn't taught as a subject yet and PE can be very hit or miss. The children are given a mark  (moyen) for each subject and an overall moyen so if you child is brilliant at everything but rubbish at sport then their overall moyen will be lower and they'll have to work harder to bring it up.  Children are tested almost on a weekly basis and it's from these tests that they get their moyen. There's no privacy in the French system and you can expect your child's progress, family situation and behaviour to be openly discussed between the teachers, class delegues and parent delegues at the termly conseil de classe. I was put forward (without my knowledge) as a parent delegue by a friend who is also a delegue and I still find it very awkward to be discussing a child that I don't even know. Marks are given out in open class which is great for the clever ones but not so for the others. I mention this not because it's terribly shocking or anything, just because it is so different from the UK where this would be considered a private matter between school and family. It is one education for all and although help is now available for those that are struggling, brighter children will not be pushed to achieve more.  Teachers have little interest in the children outside school but on the plus side you can say goodbye to expensive end of term whip rounds for teachers' presents and the oneupmanship of harvest festival!

Education is as much a postcode lottery in France so the main thing is to research your area, check what extra help is available to non-Francophone children as many areas offer no help whatsoever, and try and get an unbiased view from other people who's children have been through the same school. The school may either welcome your child as a welcome foreigner who will give a different perspective or as an irritant that they could really do without as they just represent more work.  I know of two schools in our area who actively discourage non-French speaking children as they say it is unfair on the French children in the school if the teacher has to spend extra time with one pupil.  Try to find people who've been involved in school life and really know it rather than someone who just puts their child on the bus each day but really has no idea what happens once they get there.  Without wishing to offend, there are many British parents in our area who never attend parent's evenings because they can't speak French, don't support school events for the same reason, yet feel very qualified to talk about how good or bad the school is. It isn't like the UK in the 50s nor is it like old style grammar school education.  Teachers strikes are a fact of life so if any education reforms is planned expect a good few days of missed school.

Good luck!

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
A nice summary mackyfrance, and reflective of our experience to date. We have been in France 16 years. We have 3 kids 14,10,8 , all born in France and all bilingual on starting school. To date they have been through a variety of schools. village, town, state and private church. Of the our 3, 2 actually appear to do quite well - often at the top of their class, but you will see below that this give no assurance of a good education . I can not compare directly with the UK as none of our children have been through any part of the UK system. However, I was educated in the UK, my father was a UK primary school head for nearly 30 years  and we keep in touch with a couple of teachers friends (UK secondary and primary). I myself work for an international organisation, based near Paris. I have previously been involved in the hiring of staff of various nationalities, including many French.

The French education system is of course directly embedded in the culture of the country. It is a system created by Napoleon and later updated by de Gaulle. Fundamental to the system is hierarchy, uniformity and learning of facts. Gaulle once remarked that at any time of the day he knew the exact subject being taught in the classroom - little has changed.  Practicality, culture, creatively, expression, sport etc are expected to be taught within the family and in outside activities. Team working is almost nonexistent within the class and within the teachers of the school.  The role of the teacher in France is to teach facts and theory. They are appointed by, and report to one of the regional academies. The head teacher has no educational control of the teacher, who may or may not decide to work together for a common cause. In one primary school we had a class with two 1/2 time teachers that were in constant conflict, refusing to communicate;  often there was a third teacher as a  replacement.

When you enrol for a school in France you will be handed many forms to sign concerning behaviour, rules and regulations,  but you will not find one piece of paper in which the school presents its obligations to you and your children. In large schools, additional staff are employed specifically to handle the discipline; "surveillants". In one primary school we found the teacher was sellotaping shut the mouths of 5-6 year old, until one of the parents (a French doctor) threatened to take them to court. The initial response from the teacher; "This is what we do here"

All too often the teacher will do the absolute minimum and they are extremely resistant to any form of change. Both parents may work, but the rdv with the teacher can only be during school hours. The inability of the teachers and school to work together is most evident during the individual teacher/parent meetings, held each term where queues of parents stretches around the car park well into the night. The teacher will lecture the parents on the problems of you and your child and leave you to find a solution.  Beware, teachers also adopt the right to stay very little at these meetings - you will only discover that little Isabelle will have to redouble at the end of the academic year. "suffisant" is the highest accolade that any child may have; motivation from French teachers is as rare as unicorn dung.

"Moyens"  for a whole class may be appalling ; I have seen a class moyen of 5 and 6 , but it is never of course the teachers fault - rather the problem is the whole class of children. If your child is below average then worry - if your child has a poor memory then worry. If your child is less theoretic and more artistic then worry. You will learn that your child has a problem. Never is there a problem with the teacher, the school or the method.  In the 30+ teachers we have come across in the last 12 years, probably only 2 seemed actually interested in their work and their pupils.

The method in French schools can only be described as mind numbingly boring. It is based on rote learning of facts and theory. They will not be taught how to find additional information and find out for themselves ; they will not learn to learn.  Your child will learn a 4 page poem by heart and learn how to write in beautiful handwriting ( which always comes in handy as a social party piece ) , but at the expense of not learning practical skills needed for later life.  Your child may arrive at a perfectly good solution to a maths problem but unless it is the exact same method used by the teacher , s/he will loose 50% of the marks. Technical tasks will be severely downgraded due to grammar errors ; we even had an "English teacher" that down marked a paper as the title date was written in British, rather than American format. If your child is performing poorly, then be prepared to pay for additional private lessons - at least now these are tax deductible. My father, on exiting our son's primary school, remarked that it was like the UK system in the 1950s. Being at the top of the class is based on regurgitating the facts at the correct moment. If your child is ill and misses a test, they will be down marked accordingly at the end of the term. Part of the current governments reforms is to have more course based work - this is rejected by teacher unions.

Whilst in the UK, I was told that many schools are moving to high tech interactive learning system with electronic white boards and individual note books. In  a French school it is often difficult to spot the working PC, and if it does work it is pretty unlikely that the teacher has any idea on how to use it.

Of course for some children this system "works", and indeed this system of rote learning continues right through, only stopping once you reach post degree level. It is perfectly matched to what comes next.  For those that have not been rejected or demoralised by the education system, they now make their applications  to human resources managers who went through the exact same system. Only at this point, do we really see the result of this system.  Young people that are now excellent at solving Cartesian problems, but completely unprepared for the team working and practical application needed in the work place.

So even with 2 children at the top of their classes, I have serious doubts that they are even close to their potential, and perhaps even more worrying school is certainly not as much fun as it should be.

regs

Richard

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I have stated before that I was worried about secondary education here in France, primary has been fine except for the items listed above, no IT no art.  However a recent move has made me realise how bad things were where I was before.  My son was top of the class in the village primaire, always getting 18 or 19 and sometimes 20.  He was in his new primaire for one day and I was called in to see the teacher.  I was shocked to be told that my son was miles behind his class mates in most subjects and that he needed to attend after school classes twice a week to catch up!  The new teacher is very strong, she taught in Paris before taking this position in the Alps and told me she intended to turn out high achievers not just average students. 

So what can I make of this, that in the Charente the schools are so backward that my son could  finish top of the class and yet be miles behind other shcools, or just that I have found a french teacher who really pushes the kids to achieve??

I'm happy of course that she caught this now with only one year to go to secondary school but what about all those other poor kids in rural schools, are they getting the same poor education?

Incidentally the schools here have IT equipment, take art and musicclasses and have a full sports programme due to the proximity of facitlities (pools, ski-ing etc.) so it is an area lottery.

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  • 3 weeks later...
My children are younger than any of yours 7 and 5 (at the time of moving 5 and 3) but have really surprised me.

We came over in April 2007 we were not going to start them at school until the September thought we would get them settled into the new country first but after two weeks they really wanted to go school so we started them at the local maternelle (they go into primaire about a year later over here!). My eldest went into CP in the september and has now started to repeat the year just because of the language and my youngest after a tricky start (basically refusing to speak french!) is more fluent than me. They both have loads of friends they do out of school activities and are invited to every party going! their social calendar is fuller than mine!

I agree it will be better as you have the time to get your daughter some outside tutor to bring on her french before you leave. You are very organised I had about 3 months to prepare for my move.

Good Luck

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  • 3 weeks later...

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