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English for English children in France


HP
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Hello, I'm looking for advice on associations or tips about maintaining my children's English in France. I have two young children (3 and 6) who attend local French school and although both their parents are British it feels like their langue maternelle is French! What do you all do with your bilingual children to make sure they don't forget their English?

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Our son was nine when we came to live here (7 years ago) but did make sure he read lots of books in english (courtesy of amazon) and we also subscribed to the Horrible History series.  Granted this would be a tad old for them but perhaps you could find a suitable series (educational or not) that would interest them and encourage their reading, therefore also (hopefully!) remembering the different style of writing.

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Hello HP.  Welcome to the Forum.

This is a perplexing issue and one that concerns many British parents in France.  My children are older than yours and so it's not quite the same.  However, we speak exclusively in English at home (except when we have French visitors).  My children watch English DVDs and read English books.  I give them English lessons and encourage them to learn English with study books on Wednesdays and Saturdays.

A set of parents with a teenager in France has told me not to worry.  They say that in the 6eme Year (aged roughly 11/12), French children start to learn English properly and that English language teachers recognise that British children can speak fluently but write badly, which is corrected from this point onwards.

I would welcome knowing whether this is so.

 

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HI JSP, I saw that your child was 9 when you moved here to France.  I arrived 6 months ago and also have a 9 years old.  The 11 year old is doing fine at school and slowly picking up the French, but my 9 year old, is just not interested.  How long did it take for your 9 year old to pick it up and then be able to speak and understand.  I feel, we are getting nowhere with him and his teacher is just letting him plod along even though I have been in and asked for work to do at home.  I hope that you will be able to give me some posative info, as I'm staring to wonder if we have done the right thing.  Making freinds seems to be even harder for both of them!! 

Thanks, Vida

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Vida.  Take heart.  You will get there.  We all cut ourselves up about whether it was a good idea to bring children to France, especially in the early stages.  You have to keep looking at the 'end game' - and remind the chldren about this as well - the fact that they will be fully bilingual and will be more marketable in their chosen careers.

I have 4 children of varying ages.  The first year is an acclimatisation (spelling?) year and although it will seem as if they are making no progress, they are getting used to the language and the culture.

My assessment of the progress of a 9 year old is:

First year

First term - slowly understanding every day French

Second term - starting to understand most things and starting to speak a little

Third term - virtually understanding everything (bar difficult stuff) and feeling confident to say sentences

Second year

Understanding everything.  Able to start learning French grammar.  Starting to read in French but not very well (the word endings are difficult).  Able to make themselves understood with more than just sentences but making grammatical errors (like many French children).  A trace of an English accent but not much.  Correcting your French, which gives them immense self esteem.

I was very anxious that mine should learn grammar from the beginning and a friend of mine thought so too.  But we have both decided that we were wrong and that it is best to leave this until the second year.

Be prepared to have British friends back in the UK criticise you for what you are doing (they are probably jealous....) and, more to the point, be prepared for the headteachers and class teachers to say that your child is not progressing how he/she should.  Teachers in France are incredibly critical and do not mince their words.

Children's friends do take a long time to 'acquire', even if you try to invite children back etc.  I reckon that in the first year, they are unlikely to have any close friends, mainly because of the communication problem.  From my experience, it is only in the second year that they start to develop a few good friends.

I realise that this is a sweeping generalisation and I shall stand corrected by other posters but I have found it to be true for all my four children.

Good luck.  I am enormously pleased that I brought my children to France but it has been nail biting at times.

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Thanks Cathy and Rose.  Feel a little more posative now.  I know it takes time, and I don't expect it too happen overnight, it's just the thought of the 11 year old staring College in September, that I find daunting and the 9 year old, in CM2 a bit frightening.  We still have another 4 month before they break up, so hopefully, will progress now with some speed.

Thanks again

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[quote user="Rose"]Cathy... what a great summary.  I would say that's just about how it went with us too. [:)][/quote]

Oh Rose. I nearly added onto my post "There's a Forum member called Rose, who has a child about the same age and who can confirm whether or not I am right."  Then I decided not to and then you come along anyway...  Amazing synergy or something like that...

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Hi Vida,

We moved here when our son was 10yrs, he started school in the last year of primaire and even though he made friends he was very unhappy, the summary of what Cathy has wrote is very accurate in terms of learning the language etc.

I was so worried that it would be too soon for him to move to college after only 1yr in primaire and that he would probably be better re doubling the year, however i needed of bothered he loves college and has never looked back since day one, when i think back to the tears every day i wish i knew what i know now, that time and patience was the answer for us.

J

 

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There is also the matter of not just your child maintaining their english - written and reading - but maintaining it to the level appropriate for their age.

Our son is six and now in primary school here in Northern Ireland - where he would be normally in P3 (he is seven next month) he has had to start in P2 as his reading and writing skills were not up to the standard of his peers. We regularly read english books (Usborne are great) to him from an early age but his being in school in France kind of messed things up. The alphabet is different in French (obviously), so is counting...

He is doing fine now and catching up but it has taken some effort. Point is, if you intend to take your kids back to a UK school keep in mind that their english literacy skills will need work - especially if they are under ten and have only been educated in a French school. It is one thing their speaking english, another thing altogether when they have to sit and do their schoolwork in english.  We were less than impressed with the standard of teaching at his school in France - he is doing far better now. We made the right decision. For us anyway.

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Hi Jura - I've not really been around a lot lately so I didn't realise you'd moved?  Did you sell up in the end?  Why did you choose NI?  How long have you been there and how are you finding your new life? just curious! [:)]

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We've been back here since January - loving it too. The OH is Belfast born and bred so...

He lost his Dad in August and his Mum was left on her own - that plus the kids needing proper schooling all pooled to bring the decision to return here. We intended to come back at some stage anyway.

Our son just was not getting anywhere at school there - he's going great guns now [:)]

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Hello Cathy

You wrote in your post about English for English children  "I would welcome knowing whether this is so." 

We came to France when our children were 8 weeks and the other 20 months, they are now 12 and 14 so the only schooling they have known is the French system.  Unquestionably their verbal skills are equal to any English child of the same age (we have British friends who are teachers/University tutors who help assess this) but their written english skills are not at the same level.  For example our youngest spelt  "usual" as "youzuelle" when doing an English dictation exercise.  They have two English subject teachers at their Collège, one with whom I converse with in English (she did her year in Scotland and is very good indeed) the other we usually end up speaking French.  When the latter is teaching English to our eldest's class, she writes the sentences on the board, then looks at him so see if its correct!!  If he is smiling all is well, if he his frowning, its back to the board!!  That said, he has been top of the year every year  in all subjects overall so far at Collège, (he is in 3ème), so the teacher does this out of respect of his knowledge rather than her lack of it!

The youngest in 5ème does 3 hours of English a week and 5 hours of French, in 3ème its 3 hours of English and 4 hours of French, which would indicate that they are getting quite a bit of the same basic grammer grounding in both languages, but of course the rest of the subjects are in French plus Latin and LV2 (German). Both teachers mark our childrens written English much more stringently that the others in the class, which we are fine with given their advantage.  At the last teachers meeting we asked why the eldest had only 19 out of 20 for oral.  She has knocked off a point because he did not speak much in class.  In his defence he explained that he did not want to dominate the class and felt that he was giving the other children a chance!

We do English with a young woman who is retraining to be a teacher he in France.  She has to study all subjects up to "Terminal" level.  Her English exercises consist of reading a passage/article, study the content, precis it and give her opinion of it.  She has twenty minutes.  We were amazed to see that the articles in the test papers are all taken from top quality newspapers dealing with articles that needed a deep understanding of English and idomatic English.  Bearing in mind that (in my own opinion) a very small percentage of the overall newspaper readership in the UK can read and understand these articles, they are setting the bar very high for the current intake of teachers.  If this is the way forward, then it should stand our English children in good stead.

At the orientation meeting for Lycée this week the Principle said that the lack of good second language skills will close the doors in the future to 80% of jobs in France - so they appear to be taking learning English seriously.

We are delighted with the overall level of education, discipline and quality of school life our children receive. ( The last school Spectacle was a Musical involving half the total Collége, with its own school orchestra, choral, theatre group and was performed twice to an audience of nearly 1000 people in total). Our only question/worry we have (living in a predominantly rural area) is would they be doing as well in a UK state school?  This ignores of course the stress we would have with catchment areas, over the top PC, quality of life etc etc etc.........!

If you want to know more, will be pleased to help.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Wow, thanks for all the answers, there's certainly much to think about when there are children involved. We too have adopted the system that in the house it's English and outside it's French (obviously with exceptions when there are friends around). We're lucky here in Montpellier that there is an association that teaches English to English children in a saturday morning club (www.ieam.info) and I've heard of another in Civray (www.accents-asso.fr) but elsewhere it seems pretty hit or miss.

Am I wrong but do only the children with both parents being English/Anglophone have the right accent in both languages? Mine children sound like either English kids or French kids depending on the languages whereas children with French-Anglo parents seem to hold onto the French accent even when they are speaking English. What do you think?

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I do feel very slightly better having read this thread.  We moved here at the end of October last year and my two (9 and 6) seem to progressing at snail's pace with their French.  Peter (6)  is silent at school (he never stops babbling at home), and Maya (9) has a permanent "bunny in the headlights" expression - at least she will try.   They have a soutien 3 times a week to help with their French, and the french equivalent of an ESL (FLE??? francais langue etrangere?) teacher for an hour or so once a week .  Maya tries even though she finds it very hard (she found school in English very hard too so I do feel for her), however, Peter won't try at school - he just stares at his feet and mumbles.  We do everything in English at home, but maybe we should speak French at mealtimes to keep the momentum going.  Their English is great though, both written and spoken!

I think the message here is given them more time, but at which point do you explore other possibilities (extra lessons etc)

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[quote user="HP"]Wow, thanks for all the answers, there's certainly much to think about when there are children involved. We too have adopted the system that in the house it's English and outside it's French (obviously with exceptions when there are friends around). We're lucky here in Montpellier that there is an association that teaches English to English children in a saturday morning club (www.ieam.info) and I've heard of another in Civray (www.accents-asso.fr) but elsewhere it seems pretty hit or miss.

Am I wrong but do only the children with both parents being English/Anglophone have the right accent in both languages? Mine children sound like either English kids or French kids depending on the languages whereas children with French-Anglo parents seem to hold onto the French accent even when they are speaking English. What do you think?

[/quote]

I dont think its as simple as where the parents orignate, I have friends who, whilst both english, adopted an early stance of speaking french at home and their children sound french when speaking english and forget lots of words. 

I have always worried about my sons english level, he is nine and can read to his age level and of course can speak fluently but his spelling is poor.  I'm not happy to send him to extra classes in the school year as the work load is already quite heavy so this year Im going to spend the whole summer hols in th UK with the aim of getting him some good english instruction for a few hours each week as well as the interaction with english kids all summer Im hoping this will help.

 

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[quote user="HP"]Am I wrong but do only the children with both parents being English/Anglophone have the right accent in both languages? Mine children sound like either English kids or French kids depending on the languages whereas children with French-Anglo parents seem to hold onto the French accent even when they are speaking English. What do you think?

[/quote]

Our children (6 and 3 years) have french - anglo parents.  We have always spoken both languages at home, mother english and father french.  We moved to France 2 years ago.  Both children still tend to respond to their father in english at home!  However, both of them speak english with an english accent and french with a french accent.  I won't ever allow them to roll their rs when learning new english words!!! 

It depends on the age that the children start being immersed in the two (or three!) languages and on the children themselves.  Some children will reject their first language at a crucial linguistically developmental age. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
We came here 5 years ago when the eldest girl was 6 and youngest 2.We have always maintained English only in the home. It took a while for the children to settle. The 6 year old was already well ahead in her English at 6 and has excelled in French, but even now is reluctant to speak it (she has always been very shy)Her college results though are great and there is help there if she needs it. Our biggest problem with her was that she had no encouragement from the teachers at all, until she reached college whare they are full of praise, which has helped her confidence no end. With the 2 year old, she is only now starting to read in English and has been a struggle, but all of a sudden , now she is in cp it is clicking in both languages.

We have friends, husband is French, wife American who came over with their children (then 4 and 7)  into a french household (Grandparents that didn't speak English) After almost a year the children almost lost their English and now only speak English in the house.

I think the trick is patience and if need be extra lessons to help with homework. If there's a sport the child might enjoy, be it football or horse riding, finding an interest can help to channel the energy.

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[quote user="mitsi"]. Our biggest problem with her was that she had no encouragement from the teachers at all, until she reached college whare they are full of praise, which has helped her confidence no end. [/quote]

It's an interesting point mitsi, I have seen my son's confindence plummet this year after a move from a school where the teacher encouraged him no end but was weak on teaching the core subjects to a school where the teacher rules like a mini hitler only ever picking up on the negative.  He now hates school and I am seriouly considering giving up on France, his education is the most important thing for me and I can not let him go down any further.  He has been in school here for 6 years so no newbie!

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This is a subject very close to my heart as I have 3 girls who have been in France since they were 5, 3 and 1. As I'm not a teacher, I set up Accents in Civray & Jarnac ( http://www.accents-asso.fr ) so that local Anglophone children could maintain their English at an age appropriate level. Whilst I think we will be based in France for some time yet, you never know what's round the corner so it seems sensible to ensure that they could slot back into an English speaking education system relatively easily. If they stay in France, having a good standard of written English will always help them.

Personally, I am constantly surprised at the number of parents who think that speaking English in the home will ensure that their children can read and write English and that they need no other help. This has had disastrous consequences for some children who have not been able to get qualifications or even pursue their chosen career because they could not write English to the required standard. But I'm clambering back onto my soapbox so had better stop before I get started!

 

 

 

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English here not a problem.  Both children (9 & 6) more than happy to read in English, write letters in English, speak English.  Now try getting them to speak/read/write French.  Stubborn doesn't begin to describe it.  I know there's a lot of knowledge in those beautiful heads, but how to unlock it? Incidentally we have been here for 6 months, they attend the local primary, have extra lessons in French, I speak French to them and all I get is "no, not now, I understand but can't be bothered" etc etc etc.  Something has to give - probably my sanity!  [8-)]

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

I am British and my husband is French, and with a group of Anglophone parents we have launched an association (see www.bilingual.fr ) in Lot-et-Garonne to give English literacy classes on a Wednesday to Anglophone children who are in French schools the rest of the week. We employ qualified British teachers and have classes from age 2-16. Do drop me a line if you'd like to know more.

Victoria

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We are also an anglo-french family (mother English, father French) and our son has no accent in either language - except the regional accent of his parents! Yorkshire from me, South-West from my husband. A lovely mixture. Around the dinner table there is a mixture of languages depending on who is talking to whom. We have always done one parent = one language and our son rigidly does the same (speaking only French to daddy, only English to mummy, to the point where he will anglicise the pronunciation of French names etc for me and vice versa) and I make sure he has plenty of activities in English outside of school (I run www.bilingual.fr , an association to ensure bilingual children develop and retain literacy in English throughout their schooling).

Victoria

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