Losing touch with my son if we move to France

[Ladoix]

Good point Sprogster,

However, would hate to live down there, much as we intend to follow the sun as we get older, that part of France is of no interest to us.  Hqving spent 7 years in Chamonix and watching it change from mountain town to international resort, (with the associated rise in crime) anywhere with a 'popular' following is off the list.  We moved here partly because of the change in atmosphere and partly because of the rising prices - it is now the most expensive place to live in France after Paris and the Cote d'Azur, yet everyone pays the SMIC!

So, yes, work is a problem in places like that and so is the quality of life. 

[Rose]

Hello Sprogster... I'm not sure I laid out specific plans but talked generally about our thoughts and ideas before we moved... maybe what we hoped would happen.  I can say that all the plans we had before we moved changed after being here... and we rapidly had to find a plan B  (the changes were all positive by the way)  The thing is, you just never know what opportunities lay around the corner but that's part of the adventure isn't it? And, as you so rightly say, ones personal situation should not be open to interpretation or assumptions on this forum or indeed anywhere as it is possible that somebody could put 2 and 2 together and make 5. 

Back to the OP, I was simply answering the question.  I've passed on our expereiences to date, I hope they were useful and provided a balance.  There are other friends on here who have not had the same happy experiences so maybe it has been useful for the OP to see both sides of the coin. 

The reasons why folks move to France, or indeed why some choose to stay in France are all different.  What I say doesn't mean it will happen that way for others... we're just expressing experiences, ideas or thoughts.  I always think that there is such a varied group of people here on CF, that generally useful and valid information rises to the top!

I think it's clear that we may not see eye to eye on this or other topics of a similar nature... so maybe we should simple agree to disagree on a few areas and enjoy the rich tapestry of the posters who share this community with us.

 

 

[Grimaud dreamer]

Rose - I agree!!

Sprogster - For the record I don't think I said I wasn't that proficient in French - I said I spoke French, but it is not my first language and there will always be difficulties ensuing from that as presumably it will become my son's first language, it is unlikely I would ever speak it the same way I speak English.

The area behind St Tropez and Port Grimaud is in some areas quite expensive - oh ok, it's millionaires territory, however there is still affordable property in the area.  I am Grimaud Dreamer because I am a fairly realistic person and realise it is unlikely we will be able to live my particular dream there.  The reasons we chose that area are that I know it well, it is beautiful, and it is not rural and remote - some of the postings to my initial question have justified my beliefs that for us rural wouldn't be right - we are townies really.  However there are other areas just inland from the coast from Nice to St Tropez, and as we would like to build our own house, plots of land are fairly reasonable, and before you jump in, we are experienced house builders, and as I have said I have a good network of people I know in the area - various trademen etc.   I can fully understand that even the very thought of the Cote D'Azur makes some people feel quite ill.  It is mad in the summer, it is horribly comercialised in some areas, but it has infrastructure, and I need that.  Making our living is the area we will have to be sure about of course.  There are various options we will look at relevant to our particular skills. 

I never thought asking such an innocent little question would provoke quite heated and passionate debates!  Good fun and very addictive.

 

[mint]

"innocent little question", GD?  There ain't no such thing on here.

Only thing is, there is the other side of the coin, when you ask a naughty big question and there's hardly a murmur or a response in sight.

I'd never know what makes some of the people tick on the Forum.  And, as you can see from my number of postings, I definitely find it "good fun and very addictive".

I mean, how can they argue like b*****y about the smallest thing and then let a great big gargantuan topic (gorilla in the room syndrome) go unnoticed?

Search me![:D]

[Sprogster]

Grimaud Dreamer, the only other thing I would add is that building and living costs in this area of the South East of France are substatively more expensive than other areas of France.

If you look at the South East section of this Forum, what stands out is the lack of postings, which is no doubt reflective of the fact that few members appear to live in this area, no doubt due to cost.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Yes Sprogster, I am fully aware of these things, hence our forward planning re: making a living. I have lived in the region and visited regularly. I wish to move to that region as previously mentioned, because of the infrastructure and this obviously adds to the costs of living.  The popularity it still retains in attracting tourists is also attractive to me from a business perspective.  Rural backwaters do not appeal to me, however cheap it may be to live there, it would be verging on the impossible for us to make a decent living.  Cost isn't the only consideration for me wanting to relocate to France and our choices of location. 

Thank you for your input though - however negative it all seems to be I think I understand what your reasons may be! 

[Sprogster]

The fact is that two thirds of all new business ventures fail within three years on average. If you add to the equation the additional risk of setting up in a foreign country, and if you do not have experience of setting up and running a succesful business before, I would say that I am not being negative just realistic.

Also not saying that you should not give it a try, but having an exit strategy, especially when children are involved, is advisable.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hello Sprogster - yet again you managed to put a depressing feel to the thing....is your glass always half empty?  I am the eternal optimist and yes, sometimes I do get let down, but I am also they type of person who will give things a go.  I will believe that although a lot of businesses fail, that mine will be the one to succeed - naive maybe, but no one would ever go into business if they didn't think like this - it's what makes the world go around....The reasons I am not being so impulsive with a prospective move to France is because there is a child involved and he is my main concern.

Do you actually live in theVar or in the Channel Islands - and have you had a string of bad experiences?

[Sprogster]

No I have had no bad experiences myself, but I professionally advise people that do!

[Montcigoux]

Don't worry  too much about this. You will be able to relate to his friends and their parents and help with his homework. It is fantastic for your french and you can buy the guides to the curriculum in local bookshops which will keep you one step ahead.  I have been a parent in both countries and although from what you say you will be starting with a higher level of french than I had I was perfectly able to relate to my daughter's friends in France.  You start off in exactly the same way in both countries at the school gate admiring baby siblings arranging play dates, helping at the school.  I have moved a lot more than average in England too and it is always a challenge to move to a new area even in England where you have a common language.  One tip make sure your son stays to lunch at school as soon as possible as this is the opportunity for him to make friends. Also don't be too sympathetic it's not that tough in french schools and there are other challenges at schools in england they are just different challenges. French schools are unsurprisingly not like english schools and french teachers are very different especially at infant / junior school level. Being in France won't change your relationship with your son in fact it will probably bring you closer together.

The point about rural schools and their potential disadvantages for getting into lycee as opposed to college is well made by other posters. Certainly I was much more laid back than many of the french parents who had their sights set on the lycee and not college at secondary school stage A couple of french parents moved their children from our local rural junior school beacuse they thought it wasn't good enough when I thought it was so much better than the english  state system that at the time I couldn't  understand this. I always recommend  the book "sixty million frenchmen can't be wrong" as a good explanation of the very competitive french system.

You will have to accept that your son will be like the children of immigrants to England he will always have one foot in both camps his home / parents country and  his own french country and culture . So long as you keep your Britishness but integrate as much as you can this won't matter. You will find that at six his english will be firmly established and he won't lose it. My daughter was 9 when we moved to France and was fluent  in french within six months. Much younger children aged two or three when they move do tend to lose their english and strangely can't always read in english although they can read in french.

Re  recreational opportunities in France these are all done outside school. Even in rural areas there are opportunities if you seek them out but you will have a lot of driving to do.  Thinking ahead a decade (and I thought I was a worrier!) to when he is a teenager he will be at college or lycee with all his mates so will feel exactly the same as them and they will accept the status quo and have a lot of loyalty to the area you live in.. Good luck.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Montcigoux

thank you so much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive posting.  It is positive and gives a balance to some of the other earlier postings which were starting to scare me a little.  I have no experience of the French education system really, so very good to hear that you actually thought it was better than the UK, and that I won't lose touch with my precious boy!!

[dragonrouge]

Dear Grimaud Dreamer I have travelled through France for over 40 years and lived here for ten. Initially in Normandie then now in the Vendee.

I wish you well in the Var but with a very good knowledge of the area I think (but not hope) that reality will hit you and hit you hard.

Some people will and are well able to criticise me (and I respect their views and their rights to be heard) for retaining a house in the UK and nothing on this planet will convince me that this is one of the best decisions I have made in my life. People argue foot in both camps not committed and the like. So be it.

Unfortunately I do not have children thus am not able to comment and it is always problematical to so do without knowledge and experience.

There are some on this posting who comment upon business life here in France and it is difficult and if you see a rate of say 37 euros an hour you can in rough terms write off 50% in overheads.

The system here is the system and it takes some getting used to but you seemingly have some experience so not so much a problem.

However I am in the law and whilst a corporate lawyer and still continue in that area I have seen some absolutely horrendous situations in custody suites in the UK. Undoubtedly there are some thugs there and prison is and will become a way of life.

Nevertheless I try to think behind the offence and to see what the background is to the offending. But I could write and probably will write a book on that subject.

Once I was called in the Police Station when two young people were let us say in a compromising situation in front of the War Memorial.

Somethings in the UK really sadden me and I am somewhat old school but equally some aspects of life in France also cause me concern.

Finally this is an active forum and within it there are some individuals with a bucket full of knowledge on France and who comment accordingly.

Life is a decision making process if it were me (and it is not) I would see what people have to say do some research and then return to the subject area and then make the decision.

I would love to be able to live in the Var outside the summer for the roads are unbelievable.

However financially for us it is not feasible.

For an exercise in house values look at Vendee in general then go to the Ile de Re and you will see what I mean. It is like the Var.

[Joanna]

[quote user="Montcigoux"]The point about rural schools and their potential disadvantages for getting into lycee as opposed to college is well made by other posters. [/quote]

There doesn't have to be a problem - as I've said our daughter went to a very rural college where very few children went on to lycee and the lycee de secteur, where she went, is regularly second to last on the list of lycee performances in the Gironde.  Nonetheless, despite the fact she isn't a super brain, just reasonably bright, she got into every prepa she applied for - including Gustave Eiffel in Bordeaux which is reputed to be the best outside Paris for science subjects, and every IUT she applied for as well.

[quote user="Montcigoux"]

You will have to accept that your son will be like the children of immigrants to England he will always have one foot in both camps his home / parents country and  his own french country and culture . [/quote]

Very true.  My children are immensely proud of beeing a bit different, they adore France and it's their home but they'll never stop being British. 

[quote user="Montcigoux"]

So long as you keep your Britishness but integrate as much as you can this won't matter. You will find that at six his english will be firmly established and he won't lose it. My daughter was 9 when we moved to France and was fluent  in french within six months. [/quote]

The rate at which children become fluent varies enormously, the middle one picked up French very quickly and was speaking fluent franglais within 3 months - 16 years later she still peppers both languages with franglais, it took the 10 year old a good year - she did French at fac - and the youngest refused to speak French for two years because she was afraid of losing her English. In my experience it often takes about a year before a child becomes fluent and considerably longer for them to master the spelling.

[Grimaud dreamer]

I have never been to the Vendee but believe it is beautiful - I once saw 'A Place in the Sun' that featured Ile de Re and I must say it looked fabulous.  The roads on the Cote D'Azur are absolutely horrendous in the summer months I agree, but I have to look at it from a business perpsective and see it that these people will hopefully be my bread and butter so it is a necessary evil really, to have to put up with it.  The Var is my region of choice because I love it and it is where I know, and I already have social and other contacts there.  It also provides all the infrastructure I want.  I know it is horrendously expensive and it may prove that we won't be able to go there, but you know you don't have to be a millioanire to live there - my friends there are ordinary people, making a living and enjoying the lifestyle. Although I am focusing on that region I am also considering Alpes Maritimes and have also looked at the Italian Riviera - I like the sun!  If it were just myself and my husband, we would go anywhere, give it a try, move on if we weren't happy, but my son is my main priority so it has to be right - I don't particuarly want to move again once we make the move to France.

[Sprogster]

GD, I would have thought that your friends in the Var have been there a while and therefore have not had the expense of buying into the Cote D'Azur property market in recent years. In my estimation, average property prices in the areas of the Var and Alpes Maritime one would want to live in, have more than doubled in price over the last five years or so, and in the Grimaud area you are easily looking at a million euros plus for a decent sized house. Even with the current market slow down, house prices in these areas have not come down unfortunately, like most other areas of France.

There are of course properties that are cheaper, but these are either very small, in industrial areas, or too remote.

 

It is fun to look anyway.

 

[Grimaud dreamer]

Yes it is great fun looking.  As I mentioned in earlier postings, we would possibly look for a plot of land - some great ones available at the moment but time not right for us - in order that we can build a house in a decent-ish location and possibly get something bigger than we would if we bought a house.  I am not averse to a village house and they are within budget, or even a modern house on a domain, again in budget.  If we were to move to the Vendee as suggested by another postee, we could get so much more and get my dream home, but I am not sure it would be right for all the other reasons, so the house is where we may have to compromise.  Grimaud, as I have previously acknowledged, is perhaps out of reach for what we want, although again a village house could be possible....it all depends on what compromises we want to make. 

[Grimaud dreamer]

The Charente and Vendee are unknown quantities to me, so better the Devil you know!

[dragonrouge]

Dear Grimaud dreamer we have moved twice in France and if one were to buy through an agent (and we did not on either occasion) then just add about another 7% to the total. With the Notaire as well you could be facing 14% on top of the cost of the property.

However there are many on this forum who have bought and sold many properties and I do not suppose one will ever come across the ideal property. As you say some compromises need to be made.

Whatever you do lots of luck

[SymIsAGuru]

I am following this thread as well because i am in the situation (almost) but with no fear of losing touch.

Is it the first time for whole family living in a foreign country ?

 By the way :-) : while i was reading all the bust up about statistics,i can't pass to mention  that you should consider the "population " factor  of both countries to compare statistics.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hello, I haven't been to the forum for a while, however am intrigued that my thread is still ongoing.

It will be the first time my husband will have lived abroad, but as I said in earlier postings I have lived and worked in Alpes Maritimes and the Var, and also briefly in Italy.  I am still dithering although am now thinking that the things I am worried about pale into insignificance compared to the ones I worry about in the UK!!  That and France once again being voted top place in the world to live may well sway things France-wise.

[Sprogster]

The so called survey to which you refer, originates from a fairly controversial privately owned American international real estate magazine website. It is probably published as a PR execrcise to attract attention to its website, which encourages you to subscribe at a cost of $30.00 pa to an email postcard, which apparently consists mainly of advertising. As a result, I don't believe there is any more scientific backing to the survey than the personal opinion of the person behind the website, but it certainly has been a successful advertising concept for the website magazine

[Grimaud dreamer]

There you go again Sprogster with your downbeat, negative viewpoint.  If you look at the article you can see they assessed over 100 countries and applied the same criteria to them all, of those surveyed on things from economy to climate amonst others, France came out top.

As someone once said, you can prove anything with statistics and should the magazine have had an ulterior motive to make France top as opposed to somewhere else, no doubt they could have done so.  Most surveys you will find, are not conducted for altruistic reasons, but for commercial reasons.  This is the world we live in and as intelligent human beings we can make up our own mind how much to believe or disbelieve.

Happy days

 

[Sprogster]

France is a great place to retire to if you have sufficient income, or own a second home in, which is probably the readership profile of the website in question. Indeed, as I am sure you have surmised by now, this is also the profile of most members of this and other similar French forums.

Where France is not so good, is as a country to establish a small business or earn a living in, especially if French is not your first language. By comparison, English speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada offer far better job opportunities, are easier to integrate into as they are culturally similar, do not have a language barrier for Brits, and are the preferred destinations for younger Brit families looking to permanently emigrate.  

I am not being negative, just highlighting the fact that most Brits that move permanently to France and Spain appear to be retirees, and that the million dollar question for younger families such as yours considering moving to France, is can my partner and I make a living there and are the job opportunities for ones children when they grow up, an area for concern.

[Cendrillon]

Well put Sprogster.[:)] I would suggest the OP keeps a foot on the ground at home while renting a property and giving France a try, this way all will not be lost if it doesn't work out for him.

[Grimaud dreamer]

Hello Sprogster

I think I have mentioned in a previous post that the USA, Canada or Austalia, do not interest me, are too far away from UK for return visits and I feel too much of a European - I would hate the USA, fabulous though it may be, and I am not sure it would be any easier to establish a successful business/career there either - nowhere is easy - not even in UK.

Also, thanks Cendrillon for your comments about keeping my feet firmly on the ground and renting prior to buying.  This is an option we have considered but have ulitmately dismissed for various reasons.  I am a person who has her feet very firmly rooted in the terra ferma.  I know certain areas of France very well, have friends there and have no intention of uprooting permananty unless I am convinced that I am doing the right thing.  I am definately not peering through rose tinted specs.

I would prefer to buy an established business in a sector I know, I also have work I do from home that could continue wherever we choose to live.  I, as much as anyone, appreciate the difficulties associated with the language barrier.  As for my son's opportunities once he leaves school - who knows what the next 15-20 years will bring either in the UK or in France.  Surely some young people manage to find work don't they???  Isn't Sarkozy reforming the employment laws?  Even France with its famous resistance to change must have to move on a bit.  The UK isn't that brilliant for young people trying to find work...

The jury is still out anyway, I am still undecided so it may never happen for this family.