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The French Educational System in General - big question!


Millie
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This is my very first post!  I only discovered this Website recently and have been facinated by the range and breadth of the topics covered. 

I have been permanently resident in France for ten years now, since the birth of our son.  He is heading for CM1 this September.  I am British and my husband is Canadian (English speaking Vancouver), but our son has only really ever known France.  I wasn't happy with our local village school - just not very good - and moved him to a small private school when he went to CP, and he is flourishing, has good friends and a super support network. 

However...I am somewhat unsettled by some posts on here with regard to the educational system in general.  I have been planning (in so far as one can plan these things) to send him to the College, attached to his school next, and then hopefully a Lycee in Rennes or La Baule as an Internat for the International Bac, and then perhaps Canada for University. 

Am I bonkers (no anwers on a postcard please!)  Have I got this all wrong?  Does France have a ghastly educational system?  I have my reservations with regards to certain aspects of it, or course, but where I ever to return to the UK it would mean him going into a central London comprehensive, and that would really give me grave concerns. 

No parent ever gets it 'right' but I am trying to do my best by this kid, and am currently having a minor to medium mental wobble, as I fear I may be getting it wrong.  He gets good marks at school, and works hard (yes, I am gaining a second education too!) and I work to maintain his standard of English (not always easy, as his teachers see his bi-lingualism as a negative, rather than a positive in general). 

I would appreciate any general advice from those who have had the experience of this.  He has a French accent when he speaks English, and an English accent when he speaks French.  I am now having a panic that I have grown a little Frankenstein, who will be neither accepted as English or as French, and it's too late to rescue the situation.  All of our friends (French) think this is all positive, and that it will give him a great start in life, but reading things on this website have made me believe this this is not necessarily the case.  What do you think?

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Welcome to the Forum, Millie.

If you go to your post and press the EDIT button, you can put paragraphs into it so that people can read it more easily and then answer more fully.

We all have wobbles about whether we are doing the right thing about education.  I have a number of children and, at some point in each of their lives, I have had wobbles about the education that I have chosen for all of them.  You seem to have researched the options really well.

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If he is happy and settled at school - do not worry. Is he 'academic'? The French system IMHO often fails children who have academic difficulties. I am also amazed that many parents consider moving to France from UK with kids at a crucial stage, when they are teenagers and do not speak (and even more importantly write) French- but yours is doing fine in French - it does not matter that he has a slight English accent. Bonne chance.

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It has been well documented on this forum that I am not a fan of the French education system. I chose to remove my children from it before they were fully embedded.

That said, your child is thriving at school and that is the most important thing. Its a pity that his bi-lingualism is seen as a negative, but it is truly not and will no doubt give him the edge amongst his peers in later life. As long as he has his parental support within the system (you might have the odd battle every now and again) he will be fine.

Problems occur when children do not 'fit' into the system. I had a child who very much did and the other who did not and would have battled. Both my children love learning and it is not a chore.

I think it is true what Cathy has said too, I certainly wouldn't tear your child out of the French system because of people like myself commenting on the negatives as your child seems to be doing well.

I do know of several families whose children were struggling (not necessarily their fault) - just poor teachers and poor schools - who have had to return to the UK.

Deby
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Cathy, Swissie and Deby, many thanks for your replies.  If worrying could gain medals I'd be a superstar.

It's just that academically he's doing well, socially, he doesn't have heaps of friends - but I think that's good, because the friends he does have, are really nice kids.  Just sometimes, he doesn't 'look' happy, or 'look' as if he fits in, and when I ask him, he says 'no problem'.  However, I know he does get teased about having foreign parents.  That being said, he's nearly ten and lots of kids of that age look unhappy and confused quite often, I suppose.  Also, whilst he might get teased about having an English mother, I suspect he'd get teased about having the 'wrong' trainers, an 'ugly' mother or some other horrid thing if I were French.  As I vaguely recall, growing up isn't a particularly easy process.

I have become oversensitive since arriving in France.  Before that I had worked in a number of countries and never gave a damn what anyone thought about me.  Since arriving here, I have had David, and there is a horrible fearful desperation that has entered my psyche because I want him to be happy.  Were I told to paint my bottom green and run naked around the village and this would ensure his future happiness, I would be demanding vert fonce ou vert claire?

Your replies have massaged my vulnerabilities somewhat so many many thanks!  

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[quote user="Millie"]

Cathy, Swissie and Deby, many thanks for your replies.  If worrying could gain medals I'd be a superstar.

It's just that academically he's doing well, socially, he doesn't have heaps of friends - but I think that's good, because the friends he does have, are really nice kids.  Just sometimes, he doesn't 'look' happy, or 'look' as if he fits in, and when I ask him, he says 'no problem'.  However, I know he does get teased about having foreign parents.  That being said, he's nearly ten and lots of kids of that age look unhappy and confused quite often, I suppose.  Also, whilst he might get teased about having an English mother, I suspect he'd get teased about having the 'wrong' trainers, an 'ugly' mother or some other horrid thing if I were French.  As I vaguely recall, growing up isn't a particularly easy process.

I have become oversensitive since arriving in France.  Before that I had worked in a number of countries and never gave a damn what anyone thought about me.  Since arriving here, I have had David, and there is a horrible fearful desperation that has entered my psyche because I want him to be happy.  Were I told to paint my bottom green and run naked around the village and this would ensure his future happiness, I would be demanding vert fonce ou vert claire?

Your replies have massaged my vulnerabilities somewhat so many many thanks!  

[/quote]

Children do not have many friends.  In their early years, they "parallel play", playing alongside friends rather than with them.  True lifelong friends start at the secondary school stage but even then, they still don't have many.  Girls, typically, fall in and out with theirs.  Boys don't seem to care less about theirs and seem to be able to do without them, unless they play sport.  Generalisations, I know.

As for teasing, children get teased by others for all sorts of things and so if you weren't English, David would be teased for something else.

There is someone on this Forum who has had a similar situation to you about her son who is the same age and so I have emailed her with thread, asking her to comment.

P.S. I have come back to the UK for a week to sort out a few bits and pieces and have met up with some of my girlfriends.  The overwhelming topic of their conversation has been worries about their children's education....

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Hello Millie - Cathy has asked me to add my comments to your thread as I have a son going through the French system at the moment so I can easily relate to your questions...

We've lived in France for three years and my son (11 years) is just about to move into secondary school.  Like you I had read this and other forums and have had my worries about the French education system.  I've also met other parents who have loved or hated the system for varying reasons. I have worried that maybe I've moved to france to follow a 'grown-up' dream at the expense of my sons education... and I have had many many sleepless nights thinking maybe I'd been selfish... to be honest I still have moments when I think this.

My thoughts so far are... in the UK we lived in a rural area and my son went to the village school... very very highly rated in the area, with fantastic facilities... but we took him out and moved him to a private school as we felt the school was failing him (the year we took him out 5 other children in his class also moved so it wasn't just us)  He was in an amazing little rural private school (very run down and shabby but brilliant teachers) and if it had not been closing we would not have moved to france... so our experience of the UK system at primary was mixed. 

In France he went to our village school... he had virtually no french and he was the first non-french child to attend.  His teacher was brilliant... very keen on the arts and using IT so we feel he has had an excellent education here and have nothing but praise for his primary school... by the time we left this summer his teacher's English was fantastic as she has used the opportunity to improve her own language skills!  My son is bilingual in an 11year old world (he does lack extended vocabularly such as language he would normally hear at home in adult conversation) but he is doing very well at school, was top for maths in the national tests scoring over 80%... he has had very good marks for science and geography and has done well with history too... but these are all subjects that he loves.  For his french results he was in the middle for his class, not the worst by some way but certainly has room for improvement but I'm not worried and neither was his teacher as she says he will progress as he gets older.  What has also surprised me is how well his english reading has improved as he 'teaches' himself with his own books... considering he left the UK system at 7/8.  So all in all I am very happy with his education at primary and have no complaints at all. 

I don't feel he is seen as an outsider... of course he and us are 'the english' family but that doesn't bother me because... well we are the english family.  He has a few close friends who come to play or he goes to play with... he has sleep overs and get's invited for meals and days out.  He doesn't have lots of friends and this has worried me but I have been told by others that boys are like that... just happy to have a few mates.  He plays rugby for our local team and this has helped us and him become involved more in the community... and we have great neighbours who seem to know everyone and this has also helped us.  My neighbour says he speaks with a perfect Dordogne accent without a hint of englishness... I'm guessing that this means he has a rural accent a bit like his Devonian one :)

I do have concerns about secondary education... it's an unknown for me and of course when I read and hear about other families experiences I worry.  I'm also under no illusions about the French system or the english systems being perfect... both have faults... shame we cant merge the two systems and cherry pick the best bits!  For now I'm going to wait and see what happens... his old teacher sends her son to his new college so I'm taking this as a recommendation and going to play it by ear.  For now it's all we can do.

I do also worry about us being too rural.  This again isn't because we're in rural France, rural Devon was just the same... we have often thought there will come a time when maybe we need to move closer to a town or be in a large village so he has friends on his doorstep... we do look at other houses but moving presents us with a new bunch of issues so this is not an easy choice either.  I'm a county girl but I think my OH would prefer to live in a town or large village... so I do think a move will be on the cards.

As for our future? Certainly if my son is happy we'll be staying in France... we've had some family issues that have pulled us back to the UK this year and this is a concern but for now we do feel our lives are better in France and our life as a family is better for us all here... I do miss my friends and my OH get's homesick sometimes but we still enjoy the freedom that France offers us and the lifestyle that allows us to be together so much more as a family.  If I ask my son where would you rather be he says he doesn't care... there are things he loves about the UK but equally things he loves about France... He also says he is going to get a Bac in France and a degree in the UK and wants to learn spanish as well as French and English... he says he can work anywhere in the world then!  So moving to France certainly hasn't dampened his ambitions!

Not sure if any of this helps you... I do totally relate to your worries but I wonder if we just worry because we've changed their lives so much?  If you want to pm or email me feel free... and maybe a few others can also offer you (and me) a few words of wisdom?  There was another lady called Lucinda who used to post with two children that have gone through the French system and have done very very well... maybe she had the same worries as us at times? [kiss]

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Hello

I have a son the same age as yours and my concerns about his education started at exactly the same time for exactly the same reason.  He was fine all through primaire (came to France at age 3), was bi-lingual and was top of the class.  All seemed fine until the day I encountered a scene (I truly wished I never did) where he was physically pushed to the back of the line to go into school, the chldren shouting France is for the French, get to the back, the teacher was there she didnt do a thing.  He didn't know that I was watching and he just shrugged and went to the back, when he came home that evening I asked him about it and he shrugged again and said it's always like that, it always has been.  I was shocked, stunned even, he had been in France for 6 years at this time and it dawned on me then that he would never be truly accepted.  I pushed him on it further in the following weeks and he did eventually say, he felt different, he always had and he hated it.

I was really worried about College too (he was due to start the next September), the local one being reknowned for drug issues and teacher apathy, the racist taunt was just a nail in the French coffin for me, I am now back in the UK, he is a much happier child now, he is out playing with his friends all day (we chose to live in a small town for this reason), he's independent, loves the variety he gets in school here (now plays the guitar and attends extra science classes) and is still top of the class!

I think if my local college had a better reputation and I had not witnessed him being made to feel so diifferent I might still be there but there were other issues of work, family illness and the decision was easy for me in the end and whilst I still love France I won't be back until my son is old enough to make his own choices.

You dont seem to have any of these issues so you should not be influenced by other peoples experiences, what is the local college like, can you speak to other French parents about it's reputation etc.

Please dont worry about things too much, you are doing the right thing, weighing up the pro's and cons, you will make the right decision for you and your family, dont rush into anything!

Best of luck

P

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I too am no fan of the French education system which I find far too narrow and prescribed for the modern world and we decided to return to the UK to complete their secondary education. We had many experiences similar to Panda, with our children suffering racist abuse from staff and even some teachers. Our son, who had been at school in France since the age of 7 never quite mastered a French accent and it made him very self-conscious and unwilling to talk in front of the class but in the end it came down to the standard and level of teaching. In the UK we live in a small market town with a good comprehensive school. Our children turned out to be very behind their peers in the UK in many subjects but have caught up well. The standard of work in the UK is far higher than in France, which is dependent in secondary school on worksheets and rote learning.  I've found many of the pre-conceived ideas about the Uk education sytem to be simply not true.

Both children are very happy here and, strangely enough, are living life with the sort of freedom that we thought they'd get in France. They walk everywhere, do lots of sport, hardly touch the computer and have a great social life, none of which, ultimately, they had in the very rural area we lived in France.  They are happier and healthier for the move to the UK.

In the end though, you must do what is best for your children, not what other people think you should do. It's that old thing about 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

I follow the blog of a lady who used to post here before she too moved back to the UK, in part because of the education system. She has just written a comparison of how she has found the two systems. It makes interesting reading. Again it is only a personal view. If anyone is interested, and if she is agreable, I'll post the links here or pass them on to individuals.

One other comment to Millie, you mentioned about your son doing the International bac in the future. Just to clarify, France doesn't recognise the International Baccalaureate and it is not taught in any public schools.  La Baule, if I remember rightly, teaches the French Bac with the Option Internationale, not sure if its the Option Anglais or Americain. The French Bac does not have any of the 'cachet' of the International Bac and is not worth any more points for university entry in the UK. I can't speak for Canada.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

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[quote user="Deby"]Hi Panda, Hows it going how is your life back in Blighty?[/quote]

Thanks for asking Deby, all good so far, I have all of my 'capital' tied up in France and no sign of a sale so things are not as comfortable as they could be but my son is very happy in school and that's the main thing.  I find, like the other posted above, that he has far more freedom and outdoor life here which is a shock really.  It's just because there is more to do and lots of like minded kids to play with, we were far too remote in France for most of the time and when in the Alps where there were other kids the locals just would not accept him at all which really knocked his confidence.

So all in all, very good thanks but needing to sell some property in France to make things more comfortable.

P xx

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  • 2 weeks later...
Section Britannique, Lycee Grand Air, La Baule has a very high standard of education and many students struggle with the entry test, both for college and lycee. Up to 70 students taking the test for 25 places. However, currently those who join in college do not need to take the test for Lycee. Something maybe to consider from 4eme! 100% pass rate in the OIB, I believe over 95% receive a mention each year. Many students continue their studies in the UK, Canada and USA. But it is a tough BAC to take and not for the fainthearted! Having two children in the section and one out, my only regret, letting one leave!
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Interesting how different people have different experiences.

Our kids came here at age 5-6 and started at brilliant local primary school. They really liked it and all the kids seemed to get on fine.

We worked hard on that, getting the kids together for birthday parties with ours etc. Our kids were happy and seemed to do well. We always made a point of trying to chat with other parents and that seemed to help.

There were a few minor issues with them being mocked for their accents and being different but this was really a tiny minority (often the kids that were disruptive in other respects also) and our kids seemed indifferent to it.  Kids can be pretty mean to each other in any country and for any reason - as earlier posts have said.

I would rate the primary school in our village several notches above the one we left behind in the UK so long ago. Parent teacher evenings were great, teachers worked hard and are contientious etc et.

When they moved to college, things became a little tougher but not horribly so. Oddly, there have been issues at the college between kids from different local villages and loyalties have split along those lines (and led to friction) rather than between local French and incomers. Our kids are in the 'our village' camp in college not a British minority camp.

There are a very few of the kids that make infrequent anti-foreigner remarks but it seems minor so far as we can tell - mainly because they're too busy fighting with the kids from other villages to bother about the foreigners.

Our kids are doing well and seem happy. They're always keen to get to school and have fun so we have no major cause for concerns (at the mo) and they've been in the system for about 7-8 years. My daughter, for example, is always in the top 2 in the class for French which is a real achievement.

We have never detected the slightest indication of anti-British bias or racism in staff at either school and the kids have never complained of it either. We're in the "very happy" camp with the college who, like the primary school, have worked hard and above the call of duty to help our kids get on.

My only concern at the college is chronic absenteeism. In the UK this is normally a problem with some kids - in France it seems endemic in the teaching side. In two full years at the college I doubt if our kids have ever completed a full fortnight without interruption due to teacher strikes or unplanned absences etc. It is a terrible problem here and somebody needs to get to grips with it.

To finish off and paint the other side of the picture - I have a mate who is a prof at a lycee not too far away.  He told me a few months back of a man (Englishman) who started thumping the prof's desk saying it was disgraceful that the Lycee wasn't arranging for English translations to be made available of the course material to help his child "settle in".

I guess it depends on your experiences how you see things. We've been happy so far and more importantly, so are the kids.      

  

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  • 3 months later...
From my previous posting, many of you will know that I am no fan of the French system. We have 3 kids born here. 2 are still here, one in primary and one in college. The third hated the system and left after her brevet. She is now in boarding school in the UK and absolutely loves it. We are lucky in that this is an option for us, although its been tough for the family.

We have lived in 2 diffferent regions of France and experienced a total of 5 primary schools and 3 colleges - some private some state. We have found the the education system narrow and prescriptive and the teaching atmosphere aggressive and demotivating, particularly from college upwards. I find teachers lazy, absent and rude, with few appearing to actually like their job (or the children). They are well know for picking on individual kids in class infront of their peers, calling them imbeciles, dimwits and in many cases a lot worse. Of course few kids will report this back to their parents as they are scared to death and traumatised.

French teachers are generally incapable of dealing with able and less able students in the same class. Remember that French teachers are not managed by the school head but from a central academy and that promotion is based on age, rather than ability. We have seen a class moyen of 8 , but it is never the teachers fault. Its because they have a class of dimwits.

We have one child that is always top of the class and the other is somewhere in the middle, but in no way is this a balanced system that will prepare them for later life. Rote learning is the norm. Team working is non-existent (also between teachers) , as is self-expression. Modern techniques that take into account the different speeds of pedagogical development are non existent. If a student is slow in one area, they will be quickly left behind, and you will be requested to take on extra private lessons to cover the poor performance of the school.

For more info on the French system based on more empirical data just read the latest book by Peter Gumbel On achève bien les écoliers? (They Shoot Schoolchildren, Don't They?) .
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[quote user="Richardbk"]. Modern techniques that take into account the different speeds of pedagogical development are non existent.  .[/quote]

They are not only non-existent, they are practically forbidden.

I failed to get a contract in one "Académie" because I gave examples of working at different speeds with different children.

The Inspector told me shirtily that the class had to follow the 'programme' even though it is clear that a majority are lost by the 4ème.

Did you watch the film "Fracture" on France 2  that I recommended a few days ago?

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It's interesting what you say about non-existent self expression since this is an area in which my son still fails miserably compared to his peers after spending age 3 to 9 in French school and now at a UK primary.  His teacher tells me he struggles tremedously when asked to do creative writing of any kind and finds it hard to think of a theme 'on the spot'.  I explained that I felt he had never really done his in french school and so we are working on this with him. 

It's such a big part of working life (well mine anyway) and since noting this lack in my son I've followed this up with my french colleagues, I ask them to come up with some creative writing, and they really panic, so it's not a new item missing in France, some of these guys are in there late 30's and don't seem capable of being creative in this way, such a shame.

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My views are well known about this.

I remember many years ago an FCPE meeting where pedagogy was being discussed. It was said that in Denmark that if a class had a poor moyen or repeated bad marks in exams, the teacher had to find out why and what they could do in order to improve their teaching methods. AND that was almost 20 years ago,and what has been done, nothing I would imagine.

Never to be forgotten and simplistically, teachers in France are taught what lessons to give, not how to teach.

Panda I pm'd you ages ago, probably about education, but cannot quite remember now.
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  • 4 months later...
How right you are.  Good on you for moving back to the UK for your son, Panda.  We would like to do the same for our son (aged ten and now home educated largely for the same reasons you quote), but we cannot sell our house and are stuck.

So he is home educated and we are going for boarding school in the UK where his big brothers and sisters live.

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"Never to be forgotten and simplistically, teachers in France are taught what lessons to give, not how to teach."

I could not agree more.  Not only are they not taught how to teach, from my experience, they are not taught how to care either.

After having my child in the French system from age 7 to age 16 and now having her in a U.S. system, the differences are beyond shocking.

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We've found the same with the UK and French systems and are so pleased we made the move back. My son has started his GCSE courses and is way behind in the creative side of English. As he wants to do Law he needs to get an A at first sitting to get into any of the better universities so it will be private tutoring from here on. He was very good at English before we went to France so I don't think that it's him, rather that he did no creative writing, or even analysis of creative writing (other than the parts of speech) for 5 years.

The opportunities he gets from his school for extended learning and preparation for the future are simply not available in France.

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