Daft Doctor Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 We are excitedly moving towards our planned move to France in April. About 2 years ago when we were first batting the idea around, a suggestion was made via this forum that we should try to organise some private French lessons for our now 9 year old in the 6 months or so before we moved, so helping him a bit with the language when he started school.The lessons are still very much on the agenda, but since our original research we have communicated quite a bit with current ex-pats, many of whom didn't think pre-emigration lessons would be all that worthwhile, as the kids pick up the language so quickly through being immersed in it at school from day 1.We obviously want to do the right thing in this respect for Jack, but as the cost of such lessons is high and the logistics of organising them could be problemmatic, I just thought I'd get some up to date views based on anyone's knowledge and experience. Thank you as always for any insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Are you coming over on Holiday? I believe that playing with French children around his age (with no English around) would be at least as useful as formal lessons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Well, I think that you have been told a load of cobblers by these expats. How can not being able to speak be of any help to anyone. So your child gets to school and a week later feels unwell, errrrrrrrrrr how are they supposed to communicate. How do they say they haven't understood in class. Really what sort of people have you been talking to! Just 'love' this the kids pick it up so easily and quickly, yes, some do, and some don't easily or don't at all. Please don't forget that some ex pat parents say that they speak french and actually don't, or hardly and haven't got a clue as to what is going on at school. Really they don't. And some people worry about kids making friends when they start a new school in the UK? Also, what about the teachers, the program is there for them to teach the lessons to the whole class, not have someone who needs preferential treatment. And I did that to the teachers, but my kids were in maternelle, not CM1 or CM2 and my kids understood a little french anyway and not none at all. Add to that that some kids are very quiet when they are three, so mine just fit in. Even I tried to have some lessons before I moved to France, every little helps.And picking up the language, my kids are not stupid by any means, born in France and as I said went to french school from the age of three and at 10 years old still lacked vocabulary. I know from the homework they were given. My advice, intensive french lessons and that still won't be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 When I read this sort of thing I always think of my college friend Zbigniew, born to Polish immigrant parents in the mid 50's, possibly in an immigration camp, I am not certain but I know he was brought up in council housing in Slough.The father worked, the mother brought up the kids and English was never spoken at home, in fact some 40 years later his mother could barely converse in English, he was packed off to his first day at school without even knowing that there was such a thing as other languages, when he relates the story you can tell that he is still moved by it, he said it was as if he had landed on another planet and had no comprehension of what these weird sounds coming out of these aliens mouths were, it was a baptism of fire for him.I know from my immersion here in France and before that in Latin America how emotional it can be being completely without reference to ones mother tongue, and that was for a well rounded worldly wise individual in their 40's, most students at the language school would contract an illness during the second week rendering them bedridden, myself included despite my motivation (I was the only one their paying his own fees),it is the bodies way, or probably the mind, of saying enough is enough.Any lessons and especially any contact with French children is recommended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 [quote user="Daft Doctor"]... as the kids pick up the language so quickly through being immersed in it at school from day 1...[/quote]I've heard this said, but I'm not sure that I necessarily agree with it. Admitted my eldest, then aged 3, went to school armed only with a handful of stock phrases relating to her basic needs for food, drink and lavatory. She's 11 now and about to pass into 4ème, so I suppose she did "just pick it up," but for older children I think the situation is rather different. Quite often it might appear to their parents that they are doing just fine simply because they themselves don't have sufficient French or understanding of the educational system to realise to what extent they are not.If it were me making a move with a nine year old, knowing what I know now, I'd go to the trouble and expense of getting them lessons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 Thanks to all and this confirms my own gut feeling that the lessons will be well worth it and will indeed be organised. Interestingly I tried to put myself in Jack's position, and there is no doubt that I would want as much useful language practice as I could get before I ventured into school. I would fall short of criticising anyone who has questioned the worth of lessons in the UK however, as not everyone has had the benefit of foresight and the wise words of those on the forum. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Totally agree with Idun comments, the only way to learn a language is to work and even with reading a lot it will take sometime. I don't think you can learn enough vocabulary just by playing with other children. They will need lessons, watch french television and when they are able to read french I would recommend a chapter or two a day. This is great for learning lots of words that they would not hear in the playground. Today, this morning my son (7 years) read 2 chapters of J'aime lire (childrens book) and this afternoon we spent an hour reading about the Romans and writing about them (in french) for his home project. I cannot believe that the french holidays are 9 weeks!!! In England they are 6 weeks, I hear they may be 4 weeks next year (?) surely this is much better for their education. Anyway, when it is raining, like to day I find it is fun drawing pictures and learning something in French (like the Romans).Good luck , as it far from easy.......(my son despite all this extra work still finds it hard and is still not fluent even though he was born here but is doing ok with his school work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinabee Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 [quote user="Daft Doctor"]We are excitedly moving towards our planned move to France in April. About 2 years ago when we were first batting the idea around, a suggestion was made via this forum that we should try to organise some private French lessons for our now 9 year old in the 6 months or so before we moved, so helping him a bit with the language when he started school. The lessons are still very much on the agenda, but since our original research we have communicated quite a bit with current ex-pats, many of whom didn't think pre-emigration lessons would be all that worthwhile, as the kids pick up the language so quickly through being immersed in it at school from day 1. We obviously want to do the right thing in this respect for Jack, but as the cost of such lessons is high and the logistics of organising them could be problemmatic, I just thought I'd get some up to date views based on anyone's knowledge and experience. Thank you as always for any insight.[/quote]If the formal lessons are logistically and financially problematic, at least try to spend some time using on-line resources - there are many free websites with games, etc. for children to learn some French - even better, I would say, if you can learn togetherIf you google "learn French for kids" you will find lots of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I agree that long-term extra lessons will be necessary.Don't forget though that this is the parents' choice not the boy's, and as a gentle start contact with other children would seem less of a drudge than lessons in the holidays.The key to learning is motivation[:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 [quote user="Daft Doctor"]Thank you as always for any insight.[/quote]My insight would be that if these "expats" didn't do pre-emigration French lessons they can't say with any certainty how much lessons would have helped their kids. You know yours: will he be happy to go to school with no (or very little) French? Is he so resilient that he doesn't need the bit of confidence that having the basics (even if that is only être, avoir, faire, aller and the other immediately useful verbs) plus the vocabulary that relates to the school day will give him? And, to be cruelly blunt, if you can't afford something as relevant as French lessons for Jack now, is your budget sufficient to get you set up successfully in France? Jack will likely continue to need French lessons when he arrives here to get him up to the standard gramatically of the average 10 year-old. Whatever that standard may be. All his contemporaries will be 10 years ahead of him. Any help you can give him now has to be useful and kind. But as has been said, it needs to be fun. Are there any French kids in your area in the UK who might be occasional playmates to get him started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Redman Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Three or four years old you can dump them at school and they will pick it up.At nine years old they run the risk of being labelled thick held back a year or two and never catching up.Buy a Fransat receiver and a dish, lock him in the room with no UK TV and do not let him out till he can understand Les Experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Daftdoctor, there has been a general consensus on this and other forums in connection with moving non French speaking kids to France, that 10 to 11 years of age is the sensible age limit. Otherwise, the risk of damaging their education by not having sufficient time to become fluent in French before starting their secondary education is too great.Another consideration is that statistically there is a possibility of you returning to the UK, as the majority of UK expats who move to France seem to end up doing and you do not want to be in that situation when your son is at an important stage of his secondary education.It is one thing to expect a four of five year old to immerse themselves in a new language, but by 10 years of age learning a new language becomes much more difficult, so your son needs all the additional help you can provide, as this is probably the biggest area of risk you are taking with your move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Ok, I clearly get the message, which is (as I have already said in my last post) in keeping with my personal gut feeling that the lessons will be a good thing, well worth the investment and a useful help to my son. We can easily afford it, I just wanted to make sure it was going to be money well spent. I have in fact made contact this evening with a locally-based native French speaking private tutor for Jack, and he will start lessons at home in late August. This will give him at least 50 hours of private tuition before the move.Once more thanks to all for the useful advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Somebody mentioned Fransat and getting your little lad to watch French TV. I think this would still be very helpful for 2 reasons. One, learning the language will be taken care of by his tutor, but from TV he would start picking up the semi-verbal part ot communicating that will also help to make him feel at ease, the gestures and all the 'euh ouais' and the 'bon, ben's' and the 'o y'aie y'aie's' that he will hear around him all the time. Two, even if he doesn't follow all the dialogue he will get the gist of the TV programmes and the names of people on TV that his classmates are likely to talk about, and if he has a smattering of popular culture to give him a bit of common ground at the outset he won't feel so much like an alien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi Eurotrash, Fransat would be a good idea, as we can watch it together as a family, so we all benefit. Mrs DD and I have just finished watching saisons 1 & 2 of Engrenages on DVD and I have to admit it was very difficult to pick out more than the occasional phrase or words as it is just so fast. Thankfully the subtitles saved the day!Norman's idea of mixing with other French children is also useful. We are out in France for 2 weeks in the summer and again in January, so perhaps play opportunities might arise during those trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Ah that made me smile eurotrash. My son's had sub language they would speak with their mates and I could 'get' very little of it. I never tried either, as I don't think that I was supposed to 'get it'.[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi, regarding Fransat, as we have a buyer for our house and will rent for 6 months or so before going to France, we cannot really have a dish and so on installed. Is there an easy way to get any French TV via sky that might appeal to a child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nectarine Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I think pre-move French lessons are a 'must'. I have friends who went to Italy with an 8-year-old and a 6-year old and put them in school with no Italian. Well there were several months of hell, with the kids coming back in tears because they didn't know what was going on and the Italian kids reluctant to play with them because they couldn't communicate. After about 3 months it all sorted out, they made friends and picked up Italian but the disruption in that early period wasn't worth it. Also, the parents didn't speak Italian either so meetings with teachers were always a disaster, ending with the kids translating for their parents.Two years later they moved back to the UK, kids fluent in Italian but parents never learned and struggled.Hope this experience is relevant. If you can afford the lessons then go for it, after all, having a second language will also boost their chances for work later on in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalpa Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote user="Daft Doctor"] Mrs DD and I have just finished watching saisons 1 & 2 of Engrenages on DVD and I have to admit it was very difficult to pick out more than the occasional phrase or words as it is just so fast. [/quote]Don't feel bad about that! There is a fair smattering of verlan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote user="Daft Doctor"] I have to admit it was very difficult to pick out more than the occasional phrase or words as it is just so fast. [/quote]Ah, funny how it 'slows' down as you get used to it. I've seen engrenage and it isn't in 'fast' french.SKY has tv5monde on 799 and we watch that quite a lot. I have never looked for kids programs though as mine are too big. Fort Boyard is on though, there is an english equivilent of that, but I don't know what it is. Teams on a Napoleonic fortress having tasks to do.There is also a similar program to the one Amika Rice(?) did, teams and a helicopter and they get clues. Also obviously you are good at learning, what with your job, but I still don't know how another language goes in. For me and many I know, it is wearing and tiring. And one has to plod on with it as it one's life could depend on it, or one's joy! And the good thing in the learning process is strange, as the more one learns, the less, 'I', at least, felt I knew. In fact when 'I' felt I was making no progress at all and going backwards, then that was when I was really making most progress. I know I am not alone in this, and maybe for the people with the 'gift' then the process isn't the same and good for them, not the way it worked for me.And like a child I got to understand most of what is said to me eventually, what I hear and see on tv and still end up speaking like a vache espagnole with a limited vocabulary. French people kindly tell me my french is OK, sometimes good, but I have no illusions, I hear it and it is not pretty or good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 "it is not pretty or good."Like both of us eh? [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 "it is not pretty or good."Like both of us eh? [6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote user="nectarine"]Also, the parents didn't speak Italian either so meetings with teachers were always a disaster, ending with the kids translating for their parents.Two years later they moved back to the UK, kids fluent in Italian but parents never learned and struggled. [/quote]Hmm. Substitute "French" for "Italian" in the above and you've got the situation in many a collège up and down this fair land. There aren't many British kids around here, so it isn't much of a problem, but I hear tales of Anglophone kids elsewhere spending half their days translating between teachers and clueless newbies. Not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Mrs DD and I have also been trying to improve our French over the past couple of years. I had a good 'O' level in French but that was donkeys ago though I did quite enjoy it. I have done all the Michel Thomas stuff several times over and use various online resources. I was blessed at birth with a reasonable brain and a very good memory, so things in patterns do tend to stick after a while. Whenever we are in France we speak French whenever and wherever possible and things are improving. We currently have post-it notes all over the house with the French equivalent of whatever they are stuck to (pink post-its for feminine nouns and yellow for male). It's amazing how you start to get those nouns after a while. It is certainly one of my cultural and intellectual challenges as an early retiree to become comfortable with the French language over time and I don't mind the hard work it entails. Jack is a bright boy and seems to have inherited my memory, so I hope with a bit of luck, prior lessons and a lot of support from us and others he will be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 [quote user="NormanH"]"it is not pretty or good."Like both of us eh? [6][/quote]You did understand that that was just about my spoken and french and not 'me' I hope.[Www] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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