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Where to purchase modest dwelling 30-minutes from major University


dharma.wheel
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NormanH, thank you for the link; and no, of course, I don't mean to doubt you. After all, I am asking for advice, and I am extremely grateful to those who have contributed to this discussion, and I hope they continue to do so. You're exactly right, I'm looking at this from an American standpoint, and seeing that there is a lot to learn.

I must say I am very perplexed by the family situation you described, Gardengirl. Do I understand correctly: a family in, say, Brittany, was told by the government that their son of Lycée age had to attend a great distance away from home? Can that happen?

I am looking at properties in the Poitou-Charentes region where the median house price is 105,200. I have pinpointed nine towns where the railway stops. Am I wrong to assume that if we were to go to France in December to view properties and schools, I may not be able to enroll my daughter in Poitou-Charentes in a school to which I could drive her every day while she lived at home? Merci.
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Hi Gardengirl....thanks! I probably didn't read your post carefully enough. So I will ask the realtors point blank whether, if I buy a house, our daughter is eligible to attend a nearby school, and I assume she will be eligible.

I switched over to "non EU French residents Q&A" and I see I have an enormous amount of work to do to see if and how we three Americans can make this happen according to US & French rules (VISAs, etc). My husband will be on Social Security, but I have to find out if the Health Insurance I buy for myself and my daughter will be good in France. Plus so much more. But......I don't want to move to an inexpensive Snowbelt USA nowheresville. We want to be in France!
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[quote user="Lehaut"]Taken off the current government sites:

Les étudiants étrangers ont droit, comme tous les étudiants, à une aide au logement. La seule pièce supplémentaire à fournir sera le titre de séjour, d'une validité supérieure à quatre mois, valable pour l'année universitaire en cours.

And

Oui, un étudiant peut bénéficier d'une aide au logement versée par la Caisse d'allocations familiales (Caf).

Un étudiant peut toucher une aide au logement qu'il vive

dans un logement privé,

en résidence universitaire

ou dans un logement social.

La demande doit être faite via un téléservice dédié.

Toutefois, l'étudiant qui choisit de bénéficier d'une aide au logement n'est plus considéré comme enfant à charge de ses parents pour le calcul des prestations familiales. Ainsi, lorsque les parents perçoivent des prestations familiales, il y a donc un choix à faire entre la situation d'allocataire à titre personnel de l'étudiant et la qualité d'enfant à charge.

So the child in question could have got a contribution towards his student accommodation, but the mother would have lost his part of the contribution towards her rent. Seems fair as he would no longer be living with her for most of the year?[/quote]

Yes the choice was made and no way was the maman in question giving up her allocation. Just the way she was.
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"So I will ask the realtors point blank whether, if I buy a house, our

daughter is eligible to attend a nearby school, and I assume she will be

eligible."

I don't think the realtors (Immobiliers) will necessarily be able to answer this question they are really only interested in selling their properties.

Have you visited France recently and looked at different regions?

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[quote user="dharma.wheel"]Hi Gardengirl....thanks! I probably didn't read your post carefully enough. So I will ask the realtors point blank whether, if I buy a house, our daughter is eligible to attend a nearby school, and I assume she will be eligible.

I switched over to "non EU French residents Q&A" and I see I have an enormous amount of work to do to see if and how we three Americans can make this happen according to US & French rules (VISAs, etc). My husband will be on Social Security, but I have to find out if the Health Insurance I buy for myself and my daughter will be good in France. Plus so much more. But......I don't want to move to an inexpensive Snowbelt USA nowheresville. We want to be in France![/quote]

I do not understand how you only need health insurance for you and your daughter and not your husband? That is curiousity on my part as we see all too often that americans in America are not covered for health care, never mind living thousands of miles away.

You did make me smile, I call it Nullepartville-en-Pleincampagne, your nowheresville. In fact a good friend in France moved to a city for the sake of her children to get away from 'that mentality' and live somewhere where there was chance of a better education. She had lived in Nullepartville for years prior to having kids and had some good friends there, but the mentality in general, was, well, as it was, narrow and bigoted. Also my experience with quite a few of the old families in my old french village. Wouldn't americans say 'red neck'.

Never depend on your agent immobilier or even Notaire giving you all the correct information about anything at all that is nothing to do with them. Easy to say 'si' or 'oui' when they do not know. You want information about education, call the Education Nationale and bother them.

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Hi Cendrillon, and thanks for writing,

As for how knowledgeable realtors are about regional schools....ce n'import quoi...but here in the US realtors are expected to know all about the schools. But I can do that research myself.

My husband is employed full-time in NY and our 3 daughters attend school full-time in the US, so no....we have not been to France for over ten years; we would like to do a school and property search in December. Still, we know France somewhat well. My husband lived in Rennes, travelled widely, and speaks fluently. I have travelled widely and speak passably.

I have a list of "the cheapest 10 departments (with their average house prices), but I am not "sold" on this list. As I've written earlier, my main concert is to find a range of the best Universities and look at houses and apartments situated on rail lines int the University city (Lyon, Poitiers, Toulouse). Poitou-Charentes is seventh on the list. Anyway, to answer your question specifically, though I have not been able to visit France recently, I and my husband are pretty well aware of the regions.
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The school is another case of the system being different.

Unless you choose to go down the private school (usually Catholic establishments) there is something known as the 'carte scholaire'

http://www.education.gouv.fr/cid5509/la-carte-scolaire.html

La carte scolaire permet l’affectation d'un élève dans un collège ou un

lycée général ou technologique correspondant à son lieu de résidence.

Toutefois, chaque famille a la possibilité de formuler une demande de

dérogation afin que son enfant soit scolarisé dans un établissement de

son choix.

In practice this  often means that in a town of any size it is difficult to get the school you would prefer unless you manage to pull strings.

You have to sign up your child in advance.

Calendrier prévisionnel

Printemps

  • information préalable des familles dans les écoles et collèges ;

    mise en ligne des informations sur les établissements ; portes ouvertes

    dans les collèges et les lycées
  • recueil des demandes d'affectation pour l'entrée en sixième
  • recueil des demandes d'affectation pour l'entrée en seconde

The site above also provides a map of the regions with links to each academie.
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To back up Norman's post, we live near the Brittany/Manche border. Even thought a school in another academy's area of responsibility may be geographically closer, you need a dispensation to go there. Your daughter may not then be able to use the school transport to go to another area's school, or may have to pay full cost!

To go back to my original point, it is possible to avoid making a fixed decision based on one quick visit to France which you may later regret. In theory, all French schools march forward in their curriculum at the same speed. This means that you can change schools at any time, the new school picks up near the spot you left the old school at. Its not a guarantee, but if you move over the long summer hols it should not be a problem. If you rent for a year, it would give you more time to make an informed decision "sur place". As mentioned above, most Lycée's have open days (as do Colleges). Both our children went to our assigned Lycée which is 15 mins away by car, 90 mins on the school transport which goes round all the pick up points. Neither of them wanted to waste that much time on the bus. Both of them were "interne" ie they lived at the school for the week, coming home at weekends. It cost in the region of 1300€ a scholastic year (2013/2014 price), including all their meals. Even if she does not live in, you would still have to pay for lunch (packed lunches are were not allowed), in the order of 650€ a year.

IMO there are far to many options available within the French system for you to comprehend at distance to make such a long term decision.

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As Lehaut says : If you rent for a year, it would give you more time to make an informed decision "sur place".

+1

I can only say that, in my view, is the most sensible option in many cases if you are new to France.

And it is what OH and I decided to do for a year ... and explained this carefully to our private-let landlady. As even if we went down the have-it-built route (the most common decision where we live) the minimum time-scale all-in would be around 15-18 months.

Finally, due to life-circumstances, OH and I ended up renting our little house for nearly 7 years but in that time we learnt a huge amount. The only damage it did was to our ever-depleting capital. Now we have our own little house, where we want to be.

There is an enormous cultural and economic difference between living in France and living elsewhere - books have been written about the bureaucracy, never mind all the other differences.

Absorbing it all takes time. Give yourself enough time.

Sue
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Like other parts of the world France has seen many changes over the last decade. For example there are now 13 regions instead of 22 this is very recent and supposedly for administrative purposes.

Do visit France and have a good look round. A Winter visit would give a truer picture of what full time living in France is really like.

Norman H, Lehaut and Sue in 56, Idun and the others have given some sound advice.

There are hand-holding agencies who for a fat fee will help you re locate but whether they know the ins and outs of the education system I am not sure.

If your daughter plans to use public transport to travel to school / uni the check schedules carefully.

Good luck and bon weekend.

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I have skimmed the contents of this thread, mainly to get informed about the French education system, as I know zilch about it.  So, please do not depend on me for anything to do with French education establishments.

Also, I see that many people have been here to give you, after researching on internet and also on the basis of personal experience, information.

On the basis of what I have gleaned, could I ask you just a few questions which I am sure you will have asked  yourself and have answered to your own satisfaction.

Am I given to understand that:

you are prepared to split up your family, with husband and 2 children in the US and you and 1 child in France

you are sure that you and your child would be able to relocate to France, satisfying all criteria of finance and health requirements

you are assured in your own mind that all the information that you and your husband has obtained in the past, with 10 intervening years, is still current

you assumed that immobiliers knew about the schools on their patch and that the "mean price" (your words) of a house in the Poitou Charente was 105k euros

So you are convinced that the best place in the world for your child to have the education you think suitable is an ocean away from your home and you are making a move to France, even after considering all of the above things and even after many on here have put you right on a number of points that you have wrongly assumed?

Words fail me!  

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I typed out a polite reply to mint's post full of explanation that revealed my very sound but still-emerging, naturally, plans, sources of information and concrete evidence about my plan. Even within the last 12 hours I have gotten helpful emails from realtors in France, one whom is going to make phone calls for me on Monday to his region's colleges, another who is going to telephone me in NY on Monday.

Rereading mint's post, I realized how rude it is. Mint makes incorrect assumptions about my family members. I made it clear that BOTH my husband and I were coming to France with our youngest daughter. My independent older daughters have money to travel what is not a great distance.

Mint is the antithesis of what a forum member should be. A forum is a place where an individual learns from those who are better informed and ELECT to share information. Why bother to type a reply if it is not going to shed enlightenment? Some of the information is not easy to find, and individuals like Norman H and Lehaut have aided me tremendously by pointing to essential websites or offering useful guidance. Why go to the trouble of delivering a claque au visage? I see that mint even went to the trouble of adding an angry devil emoticon to her title to add emphasis to her mean spiritedness.

This is certainly not the first time I have encountered hostility on social media. I hope this does not deter new friends and new readers from joining this discussion.
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So, I am rude and unhelpful and make "crude assumptions" about your family?  I am only going by what you have said on the thread.  I, like anyone else, is not a party to what you might know and chosen not to reveal.  Of course, that is your choice, no argument there!

If you think I am "hostile", then I can only say that you ain't heard nothing yet (ok, just a pharaphrase) of a recent president of yours.

And, according to one of your compatriots, a well-known tennis player, you can't be serious?

At this point I am bowing out and, if you can make it all work according to your plans, good luck, and I do mean that.

I have no further inclination to contribute to this thread.

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d.w - and I hope you do not object to me shortening your handle.

Please do not be too judgemental on Mint. Unlike you, a number of us have known her through her posts and know that she was not trying to criticise you or your family even if that is the impression you gained.

There is always a balance between spilling the whole family history and providing enough information while retaining confidentiality. The problem arises when we have to try and provide you with useable and sensible advice knowing that we only have a part of the picture. The parts that you chose not to disclose, can actually be those that are most important in giving you the best advice that we can collectively give. Sometimes we have to fill the gaps and sometimes we get it completely wrong. I know that I have been guilty of that in the past.

But the gaps can be very important in giving the best advice - and sometimes that advice might just be, no matter what you think now, coming to France would be a big mistake - and please do not think that that necessarily applies to you and your daughter.

Over the years we have seen many who have had vague ideas about coming to France and have convinced themselves that their worlds will change for the better by doing so - and with little or no reason to support that view. We have seen people running away but not really understanding where they are running to. We have seen people who have wrecked their children's education in order that they can live the dream. And most importantly we have seen people who have had to return home having tried and failed (in itself not necessarily a problem) and having essentially bankrupted the family, destroyed their children's education, and sometimes destroyed the family environment.

For myself (and this may mirror Mint's more direct posting) I am unsure just why you and your daughter want/need to come to France. What benefits do you see over staying in the US? It's a gap where, without a clearer view, it could be easy to give bad advice rather than good.

I don't want this to sound critical, but you have already been surprised (perhaps shocked would be closer) by the way the French education works, so to have a better understanding of the motivations will help us give good answers. You have also displayed what can best be described as a scatter gun approach to where you would like to end up. Imagine that I asked you the equivalent question about moving to the States but was not sure about whether Boston, St, Louis, Los Angeles, or Tampa would be a good choice. I think you would question what is my starting point and motivation.

I hope you read this in the sentiment in which it is written - which is to probe further about your motivations and aims without delving too deeply into the personal situation beyond that which is necessary to give the best advice. It is certainly not intended to be critical.

I understand, respect and acknowledge a degree for personal privacy and you must maintain that however I think to give advice you do need to open out rather more in terms of your motivations and aims.

I am sorry if this offends or touches nerves - that is not my intention.
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Well, I was gonna try and help dharma but her less than polite outburst over Mint's well expressed concerns means that frankly, I ain't gonna, not nohow. So there, I wont I wont I wont and I'm stamping my little footie pootie! And if you try and make me, I will skweem and skweem and skweem.
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QUOTE dharma

Mint is the antithesis of what a forum member should be.

....

This is certainly not the first time I have encountered hostility on social media.

END QUOTE

Au contraire, dharma, the Mint who has been with us on here for many years had always manifested herself as EXACTLY the sort of person a forum member should be.

Like her, I have spent a lot of time and effort reading and re-reading this long thread, hoping to find any way to be helpful to you - though I don't have experience of the French educational system either, except that of having been a student there myself many decades ago.

You have received some great advice, but I fear nobody is going to be able to pinpoint that perfect house in its perfect position that is going to furnish your daughter with the perfect university course in 4 or 5 years' time.

I, too, am worried about whether you would get the necessary resident visas and - particularly - how you would fund your health care if you were on such a tight budget (I think you said your husband would be "on Social Security"; I am not sure what that means).

Also, if you did make the move to France, and life did not come up to your hopes and expectations, could you afford to move back to the US?

I wish somebody on here could wave a magic wand and give you confirmation that everything will be OK, but it is much better to be aware of possible pitfalls before you have gone too far.

Angela

PS. Regarding social media, it is easy to unwittingly give (or take) offence via an email or a posting, since it is hard to convey a tone of irony, jest, wry amusement etc.

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Dear Andy,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a well-informed, thoughtful, and helpful post. It is much appreciated.

Thank you, too, the the great number of people who have guided me through this thread, and thank you, NormanH, for the generous train schedules.

Before I try to answer your questions, though, Andy, I will remind Woolybanana that mint used an angry devil to precede her post to me, made hostile references to an American President and tennis player (what do they have to do with me?) and, instead of asking me for further information, made judgmental and critical assumptions of what I and my husband did and did not know. She wrongly stated (misread) that I intended to come to France alone with my daughter. I do find it sad and ironic that I am shut out and dismissed by several individuals when I was the one who was insulted, misunderstood, and blind--sided with criticism that was wholly uncalled for.

Andy, My husband and I intend to come to France with our 13 year old daughter who, we imagine, will repeat 8th grade in college. My husband has lived in France (Rennes), worked for 35 years in the French language, assisted his parents who lived in France (in Pezenas) for years, bought and sold their houses himself in French, and is current with today's immigration and health requirements for US citizens to move to France. As I thought I made clear from the beginning, my mission is simply this: to find good schools for our daughter and to settle within commuting distance from those schools. BTW the whole family are Francophiles--my middle daughter will soon be living in Aix--and my eldest daughter is entering a profession that will earn her a good salary; thus, she come to France often.

Andy, as for "What benefits do we see from moving to France?" they are the following: the US recession of 2006 - ? resulted in the unhappy fact that we will have a very frugal amount of money on which to retire and with witch to send our DD # 3 to college. At our age, the Federal gov't will probably not give her/us enough in loans for four years at a selective US college. Her choices could well be between a French University and an (undesirable) US community college, followed by four years at a less-expensive mediocre college which she would pay for with something like a waitressing job. She wants to study in France and learn French. Saying that asking for "inside knowledge" of those Universities with good reputations" (near one of which we planned to settle)is a "scatter gun approach" is unfair. We do NOT have books in the US assessing French Universities; however, our libraries are teeming with books about very expensive colleges and libraries. From where am I to gleam knowledge about the reputations of Universities? The Universities will not tell you themselves.There are, I found, no websites that assess and compare Universities in France. Only yesterday--after months of research--I found such a site made by the magazine US News and World Report. After Les Grand Eccoles, the ranking put Montpelier and Aix-Marseille quite high. Now they are at the top of my list. Poitiers was ranked much lower than I would have expected (not that I put undue emphasis on rankings). The University websites for Montpelier and Aix-Marseilles show attractive and very widespread programs. "A scatter gun approach"--which is what I was trained to use at the prestigious The Hudson Institute.-- is called research, and I am surprised that it struck a nerve with you. When we sell our house in NY, our retirement options are places like Buffalo or Utica NY (heavy snow) or places like Florida where we would not feel as at home as we would be in France.

I don't know what other "personal information" would be helpful:

1. We all/almost all speak French and have spent time in France, plan to, and have worked in France;

2. We like France better than a lot of the US;

3. My husband has done weeks of complex house-selling business in France (which mint mocked--sorry!--becausehis experience is "ten years old");

4. Economically and vis a vis Universite (especially as DD # 3 is happy to live at home) it looks like we will do much better in France than in the US, especially with our retirement income. If we sell our NY house for a good price we should be able to live well but carefully.

4. Out two older daughters will either be in France for school-year-abroad followed by a career (YES, she will have professional guidance) or can easily travel here;

I tried to look up Rahinja, Andy, but I could not find it. What does Rahinja mean? I am a practicing Buddhist (Pure Land School).

Constance
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Constance, maybe your desire for your daughter to be educated in France is guiding you, but as your husband will be retiring ( as I understand it ) how will you fare for Healthcare ? I have an American friend who would love to go to and live in France, but her healthcare provision is not transferable and as she too is retired French healthcare can be pricey

That is a pretty major consideration.

Secondly are you prepared for your worldwide income to be taxed in France even though you will still be required ( unless it's changed recently ) to submit a return to the IRS?

Also please be aware that although an realtor may help you with questions on education, it s unlikely that they will take any responsibility for decisions made on their say so, it's essential you check the facts yourself

Good luck with your research...
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Russethouse, thank you for your considerate questions. I know they are generously intended. Thank you too, Loiseau, for raising questions about aspects of life in France that are outside the confines of education.

Please be reminded that my initial question had nothing to do with anything besides specific Universities and attractive towns with quality colleges and Lycées. Here in the US we are surrounded by guide books to US colleges and Universities, but nothing, of course, about education at any level in France. It did not seem unreasonable to seek that kind of information from individuals living in France.

Before I was a University professor in NYC for 11 years, I was a researcher for Herman Kahn at the prestigious Hudson Institute. I know how to do research when the information I need is public (or not hard to understand, as I find French train schedules to be....thank you NormanH). I know what official documents are required for my family to relocate to France, I know the threshold of savings I need prove to France we have, I know that we can afford taxes on our retirement income both for the US and for France, I know roughly what our French health care/health insurance will cost (Should one of us encounter a major health need we would return to the US and use the Medicare system), I know roughly what Catholic school and private schools will cost. I know just about everything that Mint, with her sarcastic superiority, assumed that I did not know.

"Where to purchase modest dwelling 30-minutes from major University" is the title of my thread." Not only do I not have an answer to that question, I have a dreadful feeling of violation and unease from a Nosey Parker who addressed me as though I am an idiot, posts A DEVIL ICON (???), and threw in, for no good reason, hostile remarks about a President of a country who saved France from the Germans and Vichy collaborators and a ridiculous remark about an American tennis player. A player who is a commentator for French radio and who is coaching French player Romanic. Am I to think, "bienvenue au France"? or just conclude, "Words escape me?"
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DW - I don't want to get too involved in this thread - just one comment:

I can think of about 6 British families in France who we've known. All but one of whose teenage children have returned to the UK for University or work. One stayed here, in University, but may leave soon.

And leave our Mint alone - she's lovely!

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Constance there are very few of us on this forum who have any experience of the French education system .

I don't think we can begin to answer your request for advice on where to live without knowledge of your choice of university city .

Both you and your husband seem to have a wealth of experience and knowledge about all things French and perhaps we are all wasting our time even trying to provide answers.

So for now, bon continuation, bon courage ? et bienvenue en France.

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[quote user="mint"]I have skimmed the contents of this thread, mainly to get informed about the French education system, as I know zilch about it.  So, please do not depend on me for anything to do with French education establishments.

Also, I see that many people have been here to give you, after researching on internet and also on the basis of personal experience, information.

On the basis of what I have gleaned, could I ask you just a few questions which I am sure you will have asked  yourself and have answered to your own satisfaction.

Am I given to understand that:

you are prepared to split up your family, with husband and 2 children in the US and you and 1 child in France

you are sure that you and your child would be able to relocate to France, satisfying all criteria of finance and health requirements

you are assured in your own mind that all the information that you and your husband has obtained in the past, with 10 intervening years, is still current

you assumed that immobiliers knew about the schools on their patch and that the "mean price" (your words) of a house in the Poitou Charente was 105k euros

So you are convinced that the best place in the world for your child to have the education you think suitable is an ocean away from your home and you are making a move to France, even after considering all of the above things and even after many on here have put you right on a number of points that you have wrongly assumed?

Words fail me!  

[/quote]

Blimey, dw, "calm down dear"...........[:D] and yes, that is a little joke which is a bit culture specific, that is, only Brits who watch UK tv will understand the reference.

I'd NO idea you would get in such a state about the above post which I have NOT edited and which I quote in full.  Unlike YOU who have made subtle alterations to YOUR reply but, that is OK by me, especially if you were trying to tone down your response[I]

Please note that I do not say, you, dw is this that and the other?  Everything is in the "passive voice", "am I given to understand" or in a conciliatory tone, such as "you will have answered your own questions to your satisfaction" and did I not wish you well if you could achieve your objective?

Truly he was right, Churchill was it, who said that we were two nations separated by a common language.  Well, for a start, us Brits like understatement, self-deprecation, we do not talk about our achievements or indeed use immoderate language if we could avoid it.

I didn't think I had made any assumptions and, if you COULD look back calmly, you might admit (there, notice my use of "might" instead of the more aggresive "will"[:)], you were a tad inconsistent with what you wrote.  At one point you said that your husband was working full time in NY and your children were attending their education establishments there.  That was the reason you gave for only needing health care for yourself and your daughter but not your husband.  It was also you who said you hadn't visited France for 10 years, you said you'd ask the "realtor" about school, etc etc.

BTW, don't fuss about telling us you are a buddhist.  I thought as much from your name, dharma wheel, I even know what that is! 

Obviously I do not have knowledge such as you do, alas, but we did have a family member who studied at the Juilliard (professional violinist now) and we visited your beautiful city.  I also have a sister who is a dedicated buddhist, so much so, that she sold her house and gave the proceeds to the temple where she went and she has spent the last 30 years doing charity work with no pay.

I am not the person to pick a quarrel with anybody.  In fact, on the odd occasions when I have lost my rag, I have been thoroughly ashamed afterwards and felt that I had failed to get my own point across.  Name-calling has no place in any sort of discussion and I am not illogical enough to get het up about some post on the forum.

Don't be bothered about the devil emoticon either, if you do look at other threads on the forum besides your own 2 threads, you might see that the last post Norman posted that was directed at me indeed had the same devil and he had the audacity to suggest that I might attract a lot of creepy types if I went full frontal![:D]  And no, I don't hold him any grudge, I laughed uproariously!

Calm down, think zen, go say a mantra or two, nobody here is denigrating you or indeed failing to understand that your daughter's education is important to you (more so to her, of course)

Will also hijack your thread for a moment or two to thank all those who have jumped to my defence and to those who have emailed or PMed, I shall be writing back à plus[kiss]

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