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Where to purchase modest dwelling 30-minutes from major University


dharma.wheel
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My husband and I are retirement age and wish to relocate to France with our 13 year old daughter who will repeat 8th grade (college, I think), attend public (or perhaps private) Lycée, and enroll in/commute from home to a French University that offers a broad range of subjects. We cannot afford Paris and prefer a picturesque, safe, low traffic rural village. The Universities that attract us are Lyon, Toulouse, Poitiers, Grenoble, Montpellier, Avignon (costly dwelling?). We would dearly love it if people recommend towns in which we could find a dwelling and where our daughter could prepare for University. My husband lived in France and is fluent; my French is good; our daughter is very excited by the idea of relocating to France as French culture is familiar to her (from afar) and she will have had two year of French. We know to expect a period of adjustment and stress for her, but the big picture tells us that this would be a good move.
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Have you simply looked up prices with the estate agents in these areas you mention.

I would say that cities are usually expensive and of those you mention the two I know best have awful traffic jams at rush hour so what might be 30 minutes on clear roads, can be triple that.

Also, even round cities some areas are cheaper, and France is no different to anywhere else, some places are not 'good' areas to live in, high incidence of crime etc. Just something to think of as you did mention 'safe'. And I would hazard a guess that drugs etc are available in every french village, even the rural ones. So is anywhere really safe?

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Thank you for your reply, idun. Yes, I have looked at properties on two excellent French real estate sites. Our price range is about 125,000-145,000 euros. For that much I think our best bet would be an apartment in a villa-style building. I have seen many such offerings. Two, even three bedrooms, and sometimes even a garage. New dwellings, clean, wood floors, etc. And then there are small cottages "well maintained," but seeing is believing. But there are literally hundreds of such towns. And from the US I have no way to gauge the safety and society of such towns, the traffic, and, ideally, the public transportation to, for instance Universite de Toulouse. I was kinda hoping that some nice people already living in France would recommend a vicinity, say, around Grenoble....or Rheims....or Rennes....I don't know? We simply need a small dwelling within comfortable, safe commuting distance from a first-class University. Can anyone suggest some locations, s'il vouz plait?
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https://www.leboncoin.fr/ventes_immobilieres/offres/midi_pyrenees/haute_garonne/?th=1&ps=4&pe=6&sqs=7&ret=1&ret=2

Might give you some ideas.

I would point out that French 'Universities' are open-access with low standards in general, so the idea of a 'first-class university' is not really applicable.

The best establishments are the 'Grandes Ecoles' which have competitive entrance examinations in French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandes_%C3%A9coles

This is just one of the cultural differences you are likely to encounter

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Toulouse has a university with quite a good reputation. Property in the Gers, next Dept. to the west of the city, can be cheap. There are lots for sale, and it's a good time to buy.

The further from Toulouse, the cheaper the property.

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For Lyon you are really stuck with the rail network. As Idun has said a 30 minute drive in quiet times becomes over an hour in the rush hour - and on Friday afternoons in the summer it can start at 14:00hrs and still be heavy with traffic at 22:00hrs due to all the holiday makers funnelling through the city, and its ring roads.

To the South this would suggest Vienne as an outer limit and to the North Villefranche sur Saone. Eastwards there are relatively few sizeable communes and to the west it becomes immediately very hilly.

Around Grenoble the good communication links are again quite restricted to the valley floors and the motorway link Southwards. Again it is a driving nightmare at busy times, though not as bad as Lyon. So again look for communes on the rail or tram network.

For both cities make sure the property has good central heating and you might well want to consider air conditioning. Typical daytime high temperatures range from -5C (-20F) in winter through to +35C or more (+88F) at the height of summer.
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From my experiences French estate agents deserve the highest award for fiction and no idea where the property is that they photograph to use in the listings.

Think two of the best that I encountered were:

Views of the Pyrenees - when I queried this or rather lack of it, I was taken up to the top floor, stood on a chair so that I could look out of a velux window and yes, you could just about see one of the peaks.

No neighbours -the property was surrounded by six other properties.

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You'd find it hard to beat Montpellier.

We don't live there, but a vibrant cosmopolitan student life. Accom for them in the city, parents close-ish. If I was a student and they offered what I wanted, then that's the place.
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Thank you, interested and kind people! I have to be in NYC all day tomorrow so I will look at all the details you sent and reply to each thought on Thursday.

"Trains!" I thought during the day. My daughter can take the train into Poitiers or Toulouse or Montpellier. Forget about a car and traffic! France has excellent trains, n'est ce pas? Buses?

So I am going to print out the train routes for several cities, circle the towns where the trains stop, and look at properties in those towns. Bonne idee, oui ou non?

Norman, I appreciated your remarks especially because I esteem Bertrand Russell, and Russell was a great friend to the Chinese, and my three Chinese daughters are super-achievers. So it would have been more correct if I had written "where my daughter can obtain by her own efforts and via the bonds she forms with experts in her field--her professors and peers--a first-class education." My husband and I worked with many individuals who obtained their degrees in public French Universities and they were all well-trained and highly-educated. If we had the resources, of course I would prefer to send our daughter to one of Les Grandes Ecoles.  The average US college or University has very average students, and each of the Ivy Leagues (I think) still has Greek Life: Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth....what goes on in the fraternities is much in the news. I'm not pointing any fingers, but I hope that at the very least, some of the devoted :"frat boys" learn, in Bertrand Russell's words, that "Drunkenness is temporary suicide." You can go to a "first-class" University in the US and waste your time, or work hard at a low-ranked college and get a "first-class education."

Enfin, several people mentioned towns and regions I do not know at all....so I can't wait to learn more! A bientot!

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Having two sons (20 and 21) one who is following the Grande Ecole route and the other FAC (University), I think what you are suggesting is not possible, nor fair on your daughter. At her age you would be pushed to say which BAC she will take (L, ES or S) and then what subject she would wish to take at FAC or Prepa (if capable) or Bac pro options. Our son did Lycée in Avranches, Prepa at Nantes, GE at Toulouse. The other S and then licence in Physics at Caen. Theoretically all FACs doing the same subject are at the same level. There are however some that are better in some subjects (Caen for Medicine for example, others for Sports). I would concentrate on finding somewhere you would like to live, with college nearby (bus routes exists but pickup points are limited) with a decent Lycée, also nearby. If you rent, then if you want to live near your daughter when she (not you) chooses her Uni, then you can move easily.

When our eldest was the same age as your daughter, we thought of buying a flat in Rennes to future proof their accommodation as it was the nearest University town. Thankfully we did not as neither went to a Uni at Rennes!
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In terms of Grenoble, have a look at 'Voiron'.

My OH went to school there and loves the place. Although it may have changed over the years.

In terms of Lyon have a look at Ecully, which is the only nice place I think in/on the edge of Lyon. I lived there and it is very nice safe place. You may scrape a place at the top end of your budget. Or you could certainly rent !!!!! Have you considered that ? Ecully is the place to be for Lyon and you are 15 minutes from the centre.

If you want to play safe head for the Loire cities or certainly areas around them. But bare in mind, the more rural you go the more bored your 13 year old is going to be. So it is a balance.

Still think Tours is a good shout. You should get a an appartement in Tours on that budget and your daughter can walk/cycle to university.

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Traffic from Voiron to Grenoble is horrific, as bad as anywhere and I was stuck in it recently after visiting friends in the region. The buses usually get through and when the trains are not on strike they do to, but at the moment they are all too often on strike.

Ecully is expensive, nice, but expensive.

Will you be able to move to France? Visas etc?

Also, you may be making this choice, but as has been pointed out, as your daughter may choose a subject that is best studied elsewhere, your specific move may be in vain.

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Yes, dharma.wheel; as idun mentions above, I was also wondering whether there is any problem for US citizens (which I am guessing you are) moving to France.

Worth checking before you are much further down the line with your plans.

Angela

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So much to absorb here - much positive, some that shows me I need to probe and research - can't get much done today, but a few quick notes.

Regarding meeting VISA and other residential requirements, yes we would be fine. My husband's parents retired to Pezenas and we helped them with out that years ago, and yes, I recognize, things may have changed.

Regarding Universite vs Grand Ecole and course offerings, commute, location, and so forth. Yes, this is what is dominating my thinking and planning, and my daughter's welfare and satisfaction are paramount to us, guiding where we settle and when. To be frank, once we buy a house we are on a very small income; we adopted three amazing daughters from China when we were not young. So our youngest's horizons are somewhat constricted as her two older sisters did amazingly well at small US liberal arts colleges. For our youngest, now in US 8th grade, that is still a possible path but now that her parents will have half their previous income when my husband retires and are older, they (we) will likely not qualify for any more Federal loans, having borrowed for two older daughters. Hence, the scheme for much-cheaper best-quality-we-can find University in France that will accept our youngest with Le Bac and, I assume, the TCF language proficiency test. If we were able to settle near Toulouse or Poitiers both of which I know offer diplomas in her main interests, I would not feel bad imposing one school on her. This was commonplace for New York City dwellers who went to City University in the 1920s-1960s. Besides, she is keen to go and has a carefree que sera sera nature. As for Les Grandes Ecoles, I do not think this daughter would like to attend such an intense school. And she would need to achieve a 3 on the TCF to be admitted to LGE which I don't think is a sure thing for her.

I need to find out what Lenaut is referring to vis a vis the details in this quotation: " I think what you are suggesting is not possible, nor fair on your daughter. At her age you would be pushed to say which BAC she will take (L, ES or S) and then what subject she would wish to take at FAC or Prepa (if capable) or Bac pro options. Our son did Lycée in Avranches, Prepa at Nantes, GE at Toulouse. The other S and then licence in Physics at Caen. Theoretically all FACs doing the same subject are at the same level."

I would like to understand what you mean by saying my scheme is "not possible" and "not fair on my daughter." I am easily persuadable if one or both of these things are true, but you go on to say this, which seems to contradict the "not possible" and "not fair" remarks." I know for sure that she would follow through Lycée an academic path--not a vocational path. I have already shown her that Toulouse Paul Sabatier offers a BA in Computer Science, her main interest.

Leant goes on to say this which is more encouraging and seems to suggest that my scheme is "possible" and fair":

" I would concentrate on finding somewhere you would like to live, with college nearby (bus routes exists but pickup points are limited) with a decent Lycée, also nearby."

Yes! Voila! That is our intention! But just not a Grande Ecole, which can cost a great deal of money, as you know!

In closing, I will have to look up L, ES, FAC, Prepa, etc. All new to me. --Merci encore.
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To back up my post, re fair and possible. If I understood your original post, your daughter is 13. My point was that if you buy a house now next to your choice of University, you are (IMA) commiting your child to a programme years ahead of when she is capable of making her own decision and choice. If she passes the BAC she has the "right" to go to Uni to follow any subject. The Uni you choose today may not meet her future requirments. The one that does a licence in computer science may not be the one that does a Masters, for example.

Prepa and Grande Ecole are not expensive, depending on your situation. Their works and study ethics, however, do not suit all students.

Anyway, at the end of the day, its your decision.
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Thanks for the clarification, Lehaut. I do understand--and concur--with the point you are making. I am saturated with a wealth of information from what we have here at the US Embassy called "Campus France" and I do find it bizarre how the French Universities are divided up into so many locations and how the course offerings are so restricted to specific locations. And that is a detriment to a child as young as 13 looking forward. Her interest is focused on computers--she won her class' award for Technology--so she does have a special interest. So I need to find the University with the broadest opportunities in a location we can afford. On the one hand it might be frustrating to think that her choices may be limited (she will probably have to live at home), but in world terms we are indeed rich and lucky.

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I believe France is unique in that if you go to a French Uni (FAC), they will give you an financial allocation for accommodation. Both are boys got/have it. In the youngest case, he is accommodated in a specifically designed building for students, 5 mins walk from his classrooms on campus. Its only 9 square meters, but has everything he needs and is very safe. His classroom/lecture/lab time is 35 hours a week, so the room is for study/sleep. There is a restaurent on site and a communal kitchen. Home is 90 minutes away on the train/bus. This situation is fairly common, so living at home should not dominate the thinking. Generally, the academy that manages education in the department you live in will determine the Uni (FAC) your child can go to. We come under Caen, so FAC Caen is the automatic choice. It is possible to go to another area, but you will need a special dispensation!!
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I don't have children of Uni age (any more) but wonder: is there a five year residence rule for this allocation as there is for help with Maison de retraite fees?

When our own son came ro Tours uni for a year under the Erasmus scheme he got the allowance even though he was not French resident but we thought that he got it as he was an EU citizen on an exchange.

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Lehaut, that is not always the case, even for french kids, my friends son got not a penny because his mother was already getting her allocation towards her rent. I have heard that things are 'tighter' these days. This was some time ago and I never had any reason to doubt this young man.

What got up my nose was that she was always an absent mother believing children should bring themselves up, and when I say absent, I mean literally travelling far far away, and she had money in the bank, so in my opinion did not need state support.

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Taken off the current government sites:

Les étudiants étrangers ont droit, comme tous les étudiants, à une aide au logement. La seule pièce supplémentaire à fournir sera le titre de séjour, d'une validité supérieure à quatre mois, valable pour l'année universitaire en cours.

And

Oui, un étudiant peut bénéficier d'une aide au logement versée par la Caisse d'allocations familiales (Caf).

Un étudiant peut toucher une aide au logement qu'il vive

dans un logement privé,

en résidence universitaire

ou dans un logement social.

La demande doit être faite via un téléservice dédié.

Toutefois, l'étudiant qui choisit de bénéficier d'une aide au logement n'est plus considéré comme enfant à charge de ses parents pour le calcul des prestations familiales. Ainsi, lorsque les parents perçoivent des prestations familiales, il y a donc un choix à faire entre la situation d'allocataire à titre personnel de l'étudiant et la qualité d'enfant à charge.

So the child in question could have got a contribution towards his student accommodation, but the mother would have lost his part of the contribution towards her rent. Seems fair as he would no longer be living with her for most of the year?
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Hi, I've been away. Sorry, I don't understand this:

Generally, the academy that manages education in the department you live in will determine the Uni (FAC) your child can go to. We come under Caen, so FAC Caen is the automatic choice. It is possible to go to another area, but you will need a special dispensation!!

1. What "academy" "manages education" and how can they determine the Uni your child can go to? That does not seem possible. Here in NY, I was last year deeply engrossed in researching French Unis for DD #2 as she will be a French major (she got "too good to pass up" financial aid to a US college and will go to Aix for her Junior yr). If we live in France with DD #3, will a district determine what Uni she can go to? That does not sound possible. I must be correct to assume she can attend whatever Uni she wishes to attend, presuming she has Le Bac and good grades and passes the language proficiency test.

Also, Campus France told us to put aside $1,000/yr for our child's living expenses. That's why I wish DD #3 to live at home. The discussion and the French are a little too dense for me to understand if it is possible for a Uni student to have free lodging and expenses.

PS researching properties in towns on the rail line out of Poitiers, up to 90 minutes....some nice places.

Thank you.
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In France  the student  who obtains the Bac can go to the local University, but it isn't common to go outside the area unless it is to go to one of the "Grandes Ecoles" I mentioned before, and you will need a dispensation to do so.

Why do you think it 'does not sound possible' that the Academie  should ' determine the Uni your child can go to"?

You have asked for advice. Do you doubt that people are telling you the truth?

Here is the site for the Academie de Poitiers

http://www.ac-poitiers.fr/etablissements-et-formations/

You will see that it manages Education at all levels from Ecoles to Universities.

Children from that Academie will usually go to one of the Higher Education establishments run by the same Academie.

You will be in France not in the USA so you have to start thinking as the French system does.

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Another example of not being able to choose to do what you wish is the direction of teachers to a teach at particular schools.

They can (or could - maybe things have changed!) choose up to three preferred schools, but the bottom line is that the French government can send them to work anywhere in the country.

The son of French friends was sent to a school in the north-west, when he had never ever visited. After a few years he was able to obtain a post in the Drôme, where he wanted to be.
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