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3 children to get into ecole maternelle...?


Luppers
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Hi all, first time posting so do excuse me if this has been asked before. My husband and I are just starting to look into moving to France in the next year or so and I'm doing initial research. We have three children aged 3, 3 and 2. I think as I understand it they'd all be entitled to free places at the ecole maternelle (please correct me if this isn't the case!) but from what I've read places seem difficult to come by - is it likely we'd struggle to find places? If it helps we haven't settled on area yet but have mostly been discussing rural/coastal Aquitaine. Any help or info on schools/childcare etc would be very gratefully received as with three children the difference between free and paid childcare is the difference between moving and not! (I don't know if it's relevant but we own a small business in the UK and would initially be reliant on that for income). Thanks!
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Lots of info on the service public website about this. And the education nationale website too.

You mention ages, but all depends on when their birthday is in the french school year.

The schools are not obliged to take two year olds, they have to have sufficient places, they have to be ready and toilet trained.

All your children also have to be vaccinated, the main three, diphtheria, tetanus and polio.

French babies also have a lot of vaccinations there is a list on the ministere de la sante, maybe the school would want to see they have been done too. Mine were born in France so all was straight forward for me, but that was a long time ago.

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Thank you for the pointers, I'll have a look at those websites. The girls were all born in April, twins in 2014 and the youngest in 2015. Vaccinations not a problem, they'll all be fully up to date and realistically we won't be moving until around their next birthdays at the earliest by which time they will all be toilet trained (if it kills me, which it might), two down and one to go on that front!

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" the difference between free and paid childcare is the difference between moving and not! (I don't know if it's relevant but we own a small business in the UK and would initially be reliant on that for income)."

While you're at the doing-the-sums stage, hopefully you are also working out the difference between the NI contributions you and your OH currently pay in the UK, and the cotisations on your income that you'll pay in France to belong to the French social security system. Hopefully Macron will have reduced the burden by the time you move. But at present, the difference is very significant and folk do sometimes underestimate this. (Well - I did...)
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Also, make sure the school you find in is going to stay open. Some rural villages are finding that their schools are being closed and amalgamated with ones further away. The threat hangs over many. You might want to check what facilities are available on the transport front too. We are three villages combined into one school system (Regroupement Pédagogique Intercommunal (RPI) ). This worked very well for our two boys, we lived in a village so the bus which shuttled the kids between the three schools was only a short walk away. College bus too. Better than short car runs every day.
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It sounds to me that you are moving to France on a tight budget.

Further to what ET has written, don't underestimate also the cost of living in France.....especially with three children. It is very expensive. You need a minimum of 4k euros per month to survive.

You said that you will initially will be reliant on a UK income. Does that mean you will looking for work in France ? If so, I would not raise your hopes in that respect.

Think carefully if moving to rural France is really a good idea with kids. I would argue it is not.
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Reluctant as I am to add to what might seem to you negative replies, I'd just add that you need to be aware that the exchange rate is forecast to get worse for sterling.  Important if you are reliant on an income from the UK.

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alittlebitfrench wrote : You need a minimum of 4k euros per month to survive.

If you are renting then you just possibly might need that much with 3 kids but many, many French families already live on much less - and they live well !

We rented - OK we are only a couple - for many years and needed around 2K/2.5K euros a month.

And my husband plays that horribly expensive game (here anyway) of golf. Also as 'inactifs' we had no health cover from the UK so we were paying our way for that to URSSAF on top of everything else.

Sue
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"Also as 'inactifs' we had no health cover from the UK so we were paying our way for that to URSSAF on top of everything else."

But as inactifs paying 8% of household income over around 10k or whatever it is for a couple, that would presumably be only a small fraction of what the OP will pay on earned income for health cover.
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[quote user="Luppers"] My husband and I are just starting to look into moving to France in the next year or so and I'm doing initial research. [/quote]

 

Translated as "he doesn't know about it yet" [:D]

 

That is my conclusion after reading many such similar postings over the years plus experience of being called to quote for works, réservations and subsequent cancellations etc.

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Can one ask the basic question: Why?

Rather than focusing on childcare I would think about:

1. Brexit - will you be able to move in a couple of years without income in France or a job.

2. If this "small UK business" is to be run from France it will need to be registered in France - expensive but at least there might then be healthcare.

3. Healthcare? Not available unless working and only 70% or so of costs covered without extra insurance - (except for UK pensioners before Brexit - no idea about afterwards).

4. Do you know about the French education system? Not so free and easy as the UK!

and that is just for starters.

Lots and lots more research needed.

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I agree that Hereford's point 1. about freedom of moment for workers has to be taken into account. Remains to be seen what is decided but if the UK sticks to its insistence on stopping/curbing migration from the EU then that is going to work both ways, the migration of Brits into the EU will also be curbed. So moving to France to run a small business here might or might not be possible for a Brit.

At present though it's not correct that healthcare is not available unless working. As Sue said, legally resident inactifs can access PUMA, and this presumably will continue, the catch there is, what will being legally resident involve for Brits post Brexit. But this doesn't seem applicable here because with a young family to bring up they will need to work, so their concern is freedom of movement for workers.

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Thank you Eurotrash, a good point. Yes, we're trying to get our heads round the differences in various taxes/contributions and will bear this in mind, although to be honest we'll probably have an accountant look over our sums to make sure we don't miss anything glaring.
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Hereford - thank you for your pointers, and of course we realise a lot more research is needed, hence this being an initial enquiry. Everyone has to start somewhere! I've started with childcare because as it stands, childcare is an enormous outgoing. It would cost us over £2400 per month to put them into preschool full time in the UK. Comparable costs in France would immediately blow the idea out of the water and render research into healthcare and the education system fairly pointless!
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I"ve been coming to this forum for years and I have never managed to quote, insert a link or put in a smiley :-) apparently I need to do something to my browers.

To get back to childcare: for out of term childcare there are private crèches but depending on availability there are also crèches affiliated to the state where I believe the cost is calculated according to household income/number of children etc. Hopefully another forum member will have more details. There is a simulator on the CAF (family allowances department) where you can work out what you would pay. If you use a private crèche I believe you can get help from CAF, or a crédit d'impôt or something.

Overall I think once you're here and working and paying in, the state looks after you quite well. The reverse side of the coin is, as mentioned, that the amount you pay in is a bit eye-watering in comparison with the UK (as a rule of thumb, a business in France gives the state approx 45% of profits). But we're all hoping the load will lessen under Macron.

On monthly outgoings Franceversus. UK - childcare sounds like it will be better subsidised in France, but a monthly expense you will have here that you don't necessarily have in the UK is your mutuelle (top up) health insurance, to cover the cost of medical treatment for the family above the 70% reimbursed by the state. Medical treatment is not free at the point of delivery here as it is in the UK.
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Luppers wrote....

'I've started with childcare because as it stands, childcare is an enormous outgoing. It would cost us over £2400 per month to put them into preschool full time in the UK.'

Nobody pays that kind of money for childcare in France....well maybe some rich Parisians. You could put one child into private school for half that cost per year. In fact £2400 is more than most people earn in a month in rural France.

In France, most children at that age are either looked after by a relative or a nanny. The only benefit of putting them into a creche (if you could find a space) is to get them ready for school.

Before committing yourself to move to France, you need to understand(ask questions !!!) more about living rural and all the disadvantages that brings with it......especially with kids.

Rather than choosing a location based on pre-schooling facilities, you should be choosing a location based on easy access to 'good' colleges, Walking/cycling distance preferably. Also access to good healthcare facilities. You don't want to find yourself driving long distances to visit medical specialists. Children get ill and they will be referred to specialists.

You really don't want to find yourself having to move again as you may be locked into a rural property that you can't sell.

There is no way I would live in rural France with kids although they were born and spent their first 3 years of their life in such a location.

Rural France is nothing to do with rural UK. I am at the moment spending a week in rural UK and it is more developed than most French cities. Rural France is a big shock for most expats moving to France. Don't get caught out....especially with kids.
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"Rural France is nothing to do with rural UK. I am at the moment spending a week in rural UK and it is more developed than most French cities. Rural France is a big shock for most expats moving to France."

+1.

The last place I lived in the UK was looked on as being "rural" ie there was open space between the buildings (and in the days when urban UK had two postal deliveries a day - does anywhere still? - for us it was "once over the ground" on account of being rural). Where I live in France is looked on as a small town ie there are buildings breaking up the open space. There really isn't much to choose between the two. Well one difference springs to mind - in the UK there was a bus in each direction every 40 minutes, here there are 3 buses per day in each direction.

Also when you start looking at where to live, if you run your business online then don't assume that all of rural France has good adsl/broadband. Or indeed, any adsl at all...
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Thanks everyone, plenty of food for thought. We would of course do plenty more research into exactly what area we'd be moving to based on more than younger-years childcare, it's just a starting point to make sure we could afford to move and still work in the short term. I was born and raised in rural Yorkshire, 30 minutes drive to the nearest supermarket, two buses a day and cows for neighbours - so I'm pretty used to being remote but I will bear in mind that it may be a bit more of a time warp than we imagine from our current cosy suburban existence! Internet accessibility would be vital so that's certainly worth considering, and I'll look into healthcare costs too. Thanks for your help, I realise we're pretty clueless at the moment!
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Don't worry about being "clueless".  With such an imperative as finding out everything relevant to the future of your children, you'll get knowledgeable pretty soon!

We were all clueless to a greater or lesser degree and, after 10 years, I remain almost completely clueless about what you are all talking about as I have no young children to settle into life here.

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Luppers

Just one word of warning about using an accountant to check your figures. Most accountants in the UK have no knowledge whatsoever of French laws and taxation. Although many will try and persuade you differently, they will not be able to provide reliable advice.

Finding an accountant that can do the job will therefore take a bit of research and may head you in the direction of the big boys like KPMG, E&Y etc..
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