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Education advice for our 12 year old


Patrick
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Hi all looking for the best way forward. Moving to france March/April next year Jess she will then just be 13 years of age. Started having private french lessons and have a house in Haute Vienne. I know children settle in well, but concerned that we are leaving a English school with GCSEs on the horizon and she will not have enough time in the french Education scheme to gain some Qualifications. Concerned she could fall between them both. Thanks a lot for your help.

Patrick
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This is a frequently asked question here, with the age of the child varying a bit.

Have a read of some of the advice already offered...

For example:

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2582107/ShowPost.aspx

To get an idea of the difficulties she will face you might like to explore this site which gives holiday work to catch up.

The section I link to is History/ Geography

http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/College/SommaireConcepts.aspx?PREFIXE=AL4GH51

but you can find  Maths /Science also...

http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/College/SommaireConcepts.aspx?PREFIXE=AL4MA51

or English...which you might expect to be easy..

http://www.academie-en-ligne.fr/College/Ressources.aspx?PREFIXE=AL4AN51

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Patrick, your concerns are well justified. This is an area that has been much discussed on the forum in the past and the general consensus appears to be that 11 years old is the sensible age limit, giving the child a couple of years to assimilate and learn the language before entering the serious part of their secondary education.

I don't know the circumstances of your move, but the return rate of Brits moving to France is high, especially if you need to make a living there and do not have a job lined up, so you need to factor in that possibility of further disruption as well.

I think you know you are taking a risk with your daughters education, hence the your question and I would therefore think very carefully whether or not you should consider postponing your move until your daughter has finished her GCSE's. Maybe a chat to her teachers for advice would be sensible, as not all children settle in well, especially teens.
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[quote user="Patrick"]... concerned that we are leaving a English school with GCSEs on the horizon and she will not have enough time in the french Education scheme to gain some Qualifications. Concerned she could fall between them both. [/quote]

Any chance of her boarding at her secondary school and joining you for the school holidays ? Where we lived in Lincolnshire many of the state schools had boarding facilities.

Sue

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I know children settle in well,

 

 

France just a better way of life for us and Jess

 

 

I know children settle in well? I won't tell you that they never do, but not all do.  And actually we are not even talking about a child here, but a teen. All those links that NormanH kindly gave you, well she will have to know all that more or less by the time you get there are she should be starting 4eme in Sept 2012 and those links are 5eme's work.

 

And it could suit your daughter very well and she'll get her brevet and BAC etc. But it is late in the program for her to be going to college and learning french to that standard and  your are right, she could well end up with no qualifications. 

 

Would I do this to my teen? Mine were in the system and I wished I hadn't had them in french colleges. So, not in a million years would I do what you are thinking of unless I could afford to board them at a school in the UK or send them to a very good international school in France and they are not all 'good'. We are english, both children born and educated in France.

 

And a better way of life for your daughter?     Lost for words really!

 

 

And health care, if you are not retired and not working, do you know the rules? I don't want to know if you can afford it, but you should be aware.

 

 

 

 

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Just realise you may be messing with her future for your own desires. Have seen several "late comers" of teen years end up with many problems mainly because they have not the sufficient written and spoken french they should have learned at primaire first and then thrust into a collège world which is very alien to british kids,especially the longer days and homework.My son even had a british girl in his class at Lycée with three words of french only, she lasted about two weeks as no one knew what to do with her. Think ahead to Lycée at 16 and even before that age they have to decide on a future career before the Brevêt. My daughter was not quite ten when she can here and we were told then that any older and she would have been refused and even then no special help, just thrown in the deep end. She did however do an extra year in primaire and did have intensive french tuition in the UK prior to moving which helped no end. She went on, like her brother to gain a french university degree but those extra years and tuition helped. Knowing what I do now from all these years in France, no way would I ever have considered bringint the kids here if they had been older, it is far too late. HOWEVER if your daughter is very academic and finds education easy, especially language and grammar and don't forget she will still have to do english,french and a third language too, she may settle but you should warn her that it will be hard for some time to start with and be prepared for tears and tantrums.
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Just to add to idun's comments that you need to carefully investigate the health care situation, if you are not planning to work in France.

Also if you are going to be dependent on a £ income, you should budget at Euro/£ parity, as some of the most well regarded currency analysts are now forcasting an 8% drop in the value of the £ against the Euro, by the year end.
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[quote user="Val_2"] ... but you should warn her that it will be hard for some time to start with and be prepared for tears and tantrums.[/quote]

If she is going to be 13 then IMHO depression can set in if she were to feel at all alienated by her lack of teen-speak French. It can also be extremely tiring to have to spend all day speaking, or trying to speak, another foreign language; trying to comprehend what is said never mind trying to absorb what is being taught.

Sorry if this seems overly negative, but this plan really does need careful thought - for your daughter's sake.

Sue

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  • 4 weeks later...
I'm afraid my advice would be that it is far too late at 13 to consider this move. Of all the teens I know who moved to France often at a younger age, than your daughter, not one has really managed to master the written language. Spoken, not so much of a problem but her written French is unlikely to be at a sufficient level to gain any meaningful qualifications. Bear in mind as well that the French system uses the calendar not academic year to assign children to a year group. If she is born between September and December she sill be put in the year above where she is in the UK. It is likely she will have to redouble at least one year which may have a social impact on her,

French school children are some of the most stressed and unhappy in Europe and for good reason. They are tested, tested and tested again, learning is by rote and is expected to be regurgitated word for word, help for non Francophone children is patchy so don't rely on it and also don't expect your child to necessarily be welcomed with open arms. Some schools, especially the underfunded ones are far from happy at having to spend their hard won funds on kids that don't even speak the language. The education system in France is in crisis at the moment. If you can get hold of a copy of Peter Gumbel's book 'They Shoot Schoolkids Don't They' have a read for a warts and all take on French education.

I can't imagine why you think your child would have a better life in France. My children would certainly not agree and would not trade their new life in the UK for their old one in France.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I've babysat so many parents who've dumped their teenagers in French schools then watched in horror as they have become functionally illiterate and gone off the rails.

I know some people say 11 but IMHO 9 is the latest you can leave it before the child's education will be seriously affected.

If you can't find a way for your daughter to stay in the UK until she has finished her education then I wouldn't even consider moving.
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Taken from another place but shows graphically just how easily things go wrong.


I would like to pick some brains as to what my daughter could do. She is 18 and stuck in 2de Generale with nowhere to go as her marks in French and maths are so poor (all her other marks are ok). She has already redoubled twice and her confidence is now rock bottom being overtaken by 15 year olds who constantly tease. The problem is we arrived here 2 years ago and she really hasn't made headway in French, and she has always been poor at maths. Her moyen in French is 7.5, her moyen in maths is 7. Whereas all the other subjects are around 12, apart from English 17.
She wants to be either a primary school teacher or a teacher of English abroad.
But I think her failure in France has left her depressed and she really doesn't seem to want to do anything any more. Any talk of a private tutor or extra lessons makes her more depressed. The fact that we have very little spare money is also a problem.
So I want her to try to find a job here until she can get her feet back on the ground, hopefully this will give her some confidence and perhaps she could do a Open University course or an Access course allowing her to go to a UK university in the coming years.
I don't think I am being unrealistic or pushy. It's her decision that she wants to teach and she was really quite a bright pupil in the UK but unfortunately our decision to come here to live at a tricky age for her has derailed her plans and set her back a few years.
What would happen if she went to ANPE? - what chances would she have of them being able to find her a job? (I know that's impossible to answer but any advice would be gratefully received) And the dreaded question: Would she be able to claim unemployment benefit if they can't find her a job? As this could enable her to pay for a course.



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I read this one on another place too and thought it was a good example of how things can and do go wrong forcing teenagers to move to France without prior years spend in primaire and collège first. This poor kid dosn't stand a chance of being employable in France and as for being a teacher, well, certainly not here as qualifications are the be all and end all to even be considered for the concours. Best solution is for them to head back to the UK and start again and get some training etc there where the girl can understand the language at least.
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And yet, if that is what she really wants then she can do it in the UK. It is the expense aspect for many that becomes the problem. She won't be able to get loans for her education until she is at university and needs supporting until that time.

She isn't alone though, I know enough french kids in the exact same situation. This is what happens when a kid doesn't slot perfectly into the nice round hole of french education.

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We arrived 3 years ago with one son starting in CM2, the last year in Primary School and one son in CM1. The CM2 son only just got in as his DOB is Jan, otherwise it would have been 6 eme-1st year at College.

We knew we were hopefuly just in time with them both learning French written and verbal before comencing College.

They have both found it difficult with no extra help offered to them. They both redoubled the 1st year which was the best, so when comencing college, they could be fairly fluent written and speaking.

I would not have come over with them starting at College, they are both now very compentant 3 years on, but it has been VERY VERY hard. Hours of homework and revising lessons each day to be sure they have understood everything. My eldest is now at the same level as other French children in his class, my youngest started college this week, and it's going to be a toungh year for him.

Would I do it all again if I had known? Not sure, I just know that it has been hard and for a child to start at college, will be very difficult and I would not recomend it. Now my kids love life here and speak French and German, but it was bringing a 10 and 12 year where also the schooling is very different. I thought at least Maths would be the same, but it isn't.

If you serioulsy want to come over, I would seriously look at internatioal school. Don not let her start in College. She will feel isolated and alone.
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Hello Everyone

I havent posted on here for months but these type of queries really make me cringe and I feel compelled to respond.  I moved to France with my son when he was 3 and we lasted for 6 years so left before the dreaded college years.  I could not imagine in a million years moving him after 10, at primaire it was hard enough for him and thats without knowing that life changing exams would be on the horizon.  My son was a  bright confident boy but after a horrible experience in the last year at primaire, racism from the teacher and other kids mainly despite his relative fluency, he turned into a child that did not want to attend school and very introvert.  I loved France but the education system is poor, its under funded, the teachers are apathetic and the job prospects bleak.  I came back because of my sons education, until he is at Uni I will not move him again.  He has just aced his SATS so I am over the moon, more importantly he loves his secondary school and skips out of the door each morning.

Do not underestimate how depressing and unsettling for the whole family an unhappy child/teen is!

I would wait a few years, if you own the house already what's the rush,?

Panda

 

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I think anyone bringing a child here over about the age of six is taking a risk that they will never, truly, settle into the system. I don't believe in all honesty that French education is any better or worse than the UK , but it is different and messing around whipping kids out of one culture, popping them into another, and then (not infrequently) doing the reverse is hardly going to be beneficial to their long-term prospects. I don't suppose that it is co-incidence that many of the most vocal British critics of French education are those who turned up here with older children.

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The response from 'penofmyaunt', who appears to have a teaching background, is excellent and should be required reading of anyone looking to move to France with school age children.

Hopefully 'daftdoctor' will pick up on this thread, as if I recall he is looking to move to France with his 11/12 year old son early next year, but I don't think he has posted for a while.
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The Riff-Raff Element said:

 don't suppose that it is co-incidence that many of the most vocal British critics of French education are those who turned up here with older children.

 

And mine were both born in France. There were moments when being forreners worked against us with some of the homework we didn't  have a cat in hell's chance of helping them, never mind the kids knowing either. But really mine had the same treatment as french kids and it suited some and they flourished in the system. Those that don't fit in  neatly, usually do not.

 

As on observer of life, the interesting thing was the body language of the teachers during those school council meetings, and I did a lot of them, especially college and with those that are called professeurs. The creme de la creme and they sat upright, head and chins held high, the tone, well it was if they themselves had given the children these gifts that they were obviously born with. Then the average kids and their body language would change position as they derided the average kids for not being bette.  And those who had problems, well the figurative knives were out and they became Gollum like creatures, snarling and full of wickedness and if even one of them had wanted to say anything good, or give  encouragement, they had not the courage to say it in my presence at least.

I think it is forgotten on here as to how french kids get on in their own system and the redoubling etc or being banged into a no hope segpa. Beware anyone whose child can not follow the chosen path to follow of being above average and not being a deviant.

 

My problem is that I am not just inetersted in me and mine. Ofcourse I am interested in mine too, but I am always interested in those around me. In the early days, when we didn't realise the problems we were going to have, I did a lot for other parents at the school. Maybe I was braver or more stupid than they were, or just did things a little differently. I would contact the inspecteur directly, and even if he returned my letters telling me to mind my own business, then he still did as I had asked. I was elected to the school council incidentally, it wasn't as if I was 'just' writing. Also, as he had returned the letters, I took it that he had not kept a copies either.

So complaints about the french system, well, there are many reports out there, making more or less the comments I have made for years and by french people, who are qualified to make these comments too.

I posted a week or so ago about La Bouture. Still going, a group of college/lycee teachers who in the 1990's were alarmed about the drop out rate and poor performance in their establishments and trying to find methods to help the kids, now isn't that wonderful. Sadly none worked where my kids were schooled.

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@ Idun - what can I say? Schools vary. Ours is so utterly different to what you describe that it might be in a completely different country. I'm a parent correspondent too and I've never yet encountered the attitudes of teachers you describe.

Having sat through several classes in different subjects (I asked - I wanted to see how it worked 'cos I hadn't been through the system) I've yet to quite understand what this business of everything being taught by rote is about, because I don't see it. I see things that look pretty much like the methods used on me - so perhaps a little outmoded - but endless rote? Nope.

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RRE, college? lycee?

I saw a little of the attitude in primary school, but they don't have a class council that goes through each kids results either. They have that and the other council meeting with elected parents/teachers in colleges / lycees.

Sometimes it had felt like a different country when reading other people's experiences in other parts of France.

A good friend lived nul part and she said that the attitude of the college teachers was laisser faire, the expectations for the kids in that very rural setting was next to none as they 'd be working on the farms. The kids of professional people would send their kids to schools in the towns. At least our village had a mix and a private and state primary school. And I suppose that that is something that people moving to cheap property in very rural France never take into account, the attitude towards education and for want of a better expression, bettering one's self and achieving the maximum in life. My friend moved to a village that was just about attached to a city, very very different.

Re the college, well. at the first meeting, I could not believe it, not at all and this was before they got to my son. I was shell shocked when I got out. Trouble is that french people are used to their system, and the moans, well, they are well out of the hearing of the profs for the most part. They also know that the profs will get even with the pupil and I know that they do just that. Of all the profs I encountered over the years, I can say that about 1 in ten was a decent human being and good teacher and they usually were not liked by the 'other's, I have words for them, but I won't use them on here. I wouldn't let most of them near a rabid dog, never mind a young mind. Still I am very thankful for the 'good' ones.

 

 

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[quote user="idun"]

RRE, college? lycee?

[/quote]

Two children at college, one in primaire.

I'm on the class council for college and I teach English at the primaire. My wife is treasurer of the OGEC for the primaire. We like to stick our oars in.

We don't get that many British students through the schools - this is not a particualrly fashionable area - but I've seen enough to have a pretty clear idea of the sort of problems they can have.

Incoming children can also have impacts on more established anglophone children who end up translating for them in class. For some of the translators this can be a benefit (consolidates learning); for others it can be really damaging to their own education.

Also, children more used to the relaxed attiudes of teachers in the British system can find the levels of deference expected in the French system difficult to adapt to.

Lots of reasons, in my view, not to move older children (ie older than six!) unless absolutely necessary.

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Other side of the coin.

We moved here nearly 8 years ago, when my sons were 9 and 11(nearly 12). It certainly wasn't plain sailing for the first couple of years, and they both started a year below in our, then, village primaire.

Since then they have done just fine; The eldest passed his BAC this year with mention, and has just started doing a DUT in techniques de commercialisation at the IUT in Cherbourg, with a view to eventually working in Human Resources ....... he has travelled widely both with his college, lycée and with his mates; and the youngest is doing a Bac Pro Comptabilité, and intends to do broadly the same thing as his brother in a couple of years time.

They are completely settled, love it here and have no wish to go back to the UK - we used to ask them every 6 months whether they wanted to go back, and they have never once said yes - and eventually told us to stop asking!

Socially they have wide circles of friends, play in a local anglo-french rock band, are are playing in the semi-finals of a Battle of the Bands type gig in Paris next weekend!!

The girl singer in their group came over 3 years ago aged 13 (her Father, in the UK passed away, and so she had to move over to live with her Mother and Step-Father) Yes, it was quite tough for her for the first year or so, but she passed her Brevet, has never re-doubled, and has just started in Terminal for her BAC L, and has a high moyenne in all subjects. I also know another girl who came over at 14, passed her Brevet, was doing a BAC L, then applied for and got accepted at Film School in Paris, and is having an absolute ball.

I have found the majority of teachers to be just fine, yes, there have been some who have annoyed the heck out of me, but I am sure there are teachers like that in the UK as well!! .......... my boys have never encountered any form of racism or bullying from teachers or students alike.

Going by the posts on here, we appear to be in the minority, but, in my opinion, it IS possible to move over here with older children, and still make it work.
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