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Speed cameras warning signs


Clair
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There's talk in official quarters about removing the speed camera warning signs on French roads, although their position would still be available on GPS, maps and on line.

The reasoning is that to many drivers slow down only to avoid speeding fines rather than to avoid potential accidents, and that the number of deaths on French roads has started to go up again.
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Good for them. I have never understood why they had to "warn" people that they should slow down for a few metres so as not to be caught and fined.  Viva the clandestine speed traps.  When I first arrived in the UK over four decades ago, I thought it was cute that they only seemed to have brightly marked cars to catch speeders.  No unmarked ones.  I think the police should use every trick in the books to catch people who speed, thereby endangering others' lives and their own passengers as well.  Besides costing us all unecessary money in health care.  Drinking drivers should simply be lifted out of their cars and allowed to walk home, AND be charged  the full costs of towing their car to their home.  And no driving for months or years after.  The French are totally lax and pathetic about that crime.  There are some police tricks that are pretty low, but I have the impression that the idea is to slow people down, so deaths, injuries and health care costs go down.  Sadly this means less organs for transplants. 

I think there should also be a vast campaign against people who drive while speaking on mobile phones as well.  Get these people off the road if they can't drive with consideration for others and their passengers.  If they are totally alone on the road, with no passengers (and with no speed traps anywhere), then they can do whatever they like, as long as they die in the accident.  Looking after those who injured by inconsiderate driving, costs way too much money.  I remember well one summer in the land of cowboys, Indians and

hugely powerful cars, when the speed limit was 55 mph.  Somehow in that

land of hurry hurry, waste no time, time is money, nearly everyone

obeyed the speed limit, ON MOTORWAYS.  Surprisingly life went on. 

Could this ever happen in France?.  

And while I am at it, those who park in disabled spaces, without being disabled, should have two tyres deflated immediately.

Goodness, that was harsh.  Maybe I should go to the forum with the snarling dogs.

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Is there a need for such signs? Radar cameras are rarely placed right at the start of a speed limit, so the normal signs should be enough warning I would have thought.

I suspect this report goes to prove that speed cameras only work for a short while. At least France isn't (yet) as bad as UK for speed cameras, some stretchs of road here in UK are littered with them.

What is the long term answer??? Discuss...

Steve

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TV, I bow in great humility to you, for you are the only individual I have ever 'met' (in a virtual sense) who has never driven over a posted speed limit. You are truly to be admired.[:D]

The whole concept of warning signs (like painting cameras yellow in the UK) was done to promote a feeling of fairness between the police and the motorist. No one, apart from TV,  likes the idea of clandestine cameras and police hiding in bushes, it somehow goes against the grain of 'british fair-play'.

What has happened, of course, is that some motorists slow for cameras and then speed up after passing them. There is a five-mile stretch of road in North Staffs with eighteen speed cameras on it. At night you can clearly hear vehicles accelerating and decelerating between the cameras. It must drive the people who live there mad.

The answer is pretty simple in my book. They are not going to 'go away' the income from them is too attractive, so unless you have a lot of money, stick religiously to the posted limits or accept that sooner or later you will get the opportunity to improve your french with a little chat with a Gerndarme.

As I've said in another thread they have their uses and in some places have made certain sections of roads safer. They do not, however, catch bad drivers, only speeding drivers.

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Got these pictures from a friend in Australia, sneaky or what.

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/camera1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/camera2.jpg[/IMG]

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So what about the newer type of camera that records your average speed?  They have these on the M20 in Kent.  You are clocked as you go past the first set then again a couple of miles on. If average speed > 70 then you're nicked. Much more expensive than a Gatsco but maybe cheaper than 18 of them and more effective too.
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But "apparently" if you are in lane 1 passing the first such camera, and in lane 2 passing the second, it can't catch you.

Not tried it, of course, but logic and some inside info says it's right.

Personally, my take on this is as follows:

What is the job of the cameras? Is it to catch speeders who haven't slowed down, to educate us to slow down, or to generate revenue?

Well, supposedly, according to DfT and the Safety Camera Partnerships, the purpose of speed cameas is to educate us to slow down.

After all, unless you have cruise control, or are CONSTANTLY looking at your speedo, it's very easy to go over a posted limit when LOADS of others are, (it's called keeping up with traffic flow, and forms part of the UK test......not speeding, but keeping up with flow[:P]), or to go over the limit on, say, a straight, dry, empty motorway. And to me, say what you will, I'm safer at 80mph under the latter conditions watching the road, than watching my speedo.

So..........how to do this best? Clandestine cameras generating fines? Or openly visible cameras with warning signs, that everyone slows for? Or even flashing warning signs if your speed strays over the limit?

I know which I think would do the STATED job best. And I also know that the STATED job just may not be the real job.[;-)]

Oh yes, and what of the drivers who STILL speed, then slam on the brakes when they see a camera? I've almost been in two accidents caused by that particular manoevre, (sp), and I reckon it'd get worse if cameras were not signed, coloured etc. Seeing them at 50 yards STILL results in folk braking "just in case", as they haven't time to check speed then brake. What on EARTH would  roads be like if cameras were suddenly "there"? 

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They have average speed cameras on the M6 about junction 30 onwards I think but as I never use that hell hole of a road I acnnot be certain exactly where they are.

As an Ex Copper, to say I have never been guilty of speeding would be a lie. As would every one else. I do speed but appropriately. Never in 30 or 40 but 50 onwards I do take liberties.

However, I do have the availability of more than 2 eyes. Police training I'm afraid, look in all mirrors every few seconds, look out for Fluoro Jkts and cars with excess ariels teh list goes on.

As yet, not a point or even a 'Stop' who goes there in 35 yrs.

How long that will stay is another matter as I'm getting older by the minute.

David

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[quote user="Ford Anglia"]

But "apprently" if you are ion lane 1 passing the first such camera, and in lane 2 passing the second, it can't catch you.

Not tried it, of course, but logic and some inside info says it's right.

[/quote]

Used to be the case but they've fixed that little bug now.  I would guess it still can't catch bikers - forward facing cameras.

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i read- ( if my translation is correct-maybe not)-in Autoplus that a lot of camers are to be removed as many are not operting correctly like giving a speeding fine for an ancient car not capable of 100 but showing 170kmh.!!
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[quote user="Bugbear"]

TV, I bow in great humility

to you, for you are the only individual I have ever 'met' (in a virtual sense)

who has never driven over a posted speed limit. You are truly

to be admired.[:D]

The whole concept of

warning signs (like painting cameras yellow in the UK) was done to promote a

feeling of fairness between the police and the motorist. No one, apart from TV,

 likes the idea of clandestine cameras and police hiding in bushes, it

somehow goes against the grain of 'british fair-play'.

What has happened, of

course, is that some motorists slow for cameras and then speed up after passing

them. There is a five-mile stretch of road in North Staffs with eighteen

speed cameras on it. At night you can clearly hear vehicles accelerating and

decelerating between the cameras. It must drive the people who live there mad.

The answer is pretty simple

in my book. They are not going to 'go away' the income from them is too

attractive, so unless you have a lot of money, stick religiously to the posted

limits or accept that sooner or later you will get the opportunity to improve

your french with a little chat with a Gerndarme.

As I've said in another

thread they have their uses and in some places have made certain sections of

roads safer. They do not, however, catch bad drivers, only speeding drivers.

[/quote]

You are wrong, I suppose because you don't know me at all.  Fair

enough.  I do drive above the speed limit in some cases (not many I admit,

who wants to get busted and lose points), although my wife reminds me if she is

a passenger.  I have also been caught

twice in my life.  Once was a dirty trick, the police should be ashamed of

themselves.  The second was fair dues on a road I take often, that I know

very well.  They had an excellent hiding place.  I always slow down

there now, if I am breaking the speed limit. I hope someday they will be

there again, and I can drive past, exactly ten mph above the limit, as

indicated on my speedometer.   Of course, as we all claim, I was driving

safely, good weather, tyres inflated properly, car  inspected often, no

passengers, dry road, straight, no traffic, blah blah.  Cost me 60 euros I

think, or was it forty.  I expect I will be caught again before I die.

Fairness and British fair play sounds a load of cobblers.  Criminals and

people who break the law should be busted.  Simple.  If there are

some extenuating circumstances that are discovered afterwards, then that's where

fair play comes in.

I certainly agree about the useless and stupid "slowing down". 

The reason for those cameras is to cut admin costs.  No people and no cars

involved.  Cheap.  Good return on investment.  And

practically no appeal.  I also live near one of the top earning cameras in

France, just coming off the Larzac plateau on the motorway (as well as two on

the A9 that really rake it in).  I read a letter from some English guy in

a newspaper who claimed it was too hard to slow down coming off the Larzac. 

Like he had no brakes that worked.  Actually it is quite well placed, just

before some serious downhill curves, but does it earn the bread!  There is

one place entering Montpellier where everyone slows down for about a kilometre,

and then speeds up.  Stupid speed limit, and stupid idea to advertise

it.  The speed limit should be about 15kph higher, which is about what

everyone does.  Mobile and clandestine, that's is the only way. 

Otherwise there are always people who think they are "good drivers"

and can do what they judge best.  Ask around.  Most men will claim

they are "good drivers", even though you know and I know they are

not.  Ask young males!  And we know

about them, great organ donors.  Maybe

you could advocate a test, which if passed means that certain people have a

special device on their cars, indicating they can break the rules that everyone

else follows.  Maybe we can fix that up for many other sorts of rules and

crimes as well.  Say French Presidents who embezzle money for their party

coffers.  Or maybe household thieves who have more than five kids to

support.

I agree with your simple answer.  Don't speed.  And maybe also try to

organise a little bit, politically, with your mates, to change the law, instead

of whinging like many people do, and claiming they are better drivers and have

better maintained bikes or cars, and should be allowed to do whatever they, in

their superior judgement, wish to do.  Don't moan, organise to change the

world!  And please don't go on about your driving certificates

again.  Those are great and I am sure you a great driver.  I am a

great swimmer, but I obey the rules of pools and seacoasts.  Even though

the rules are made for inferior swimmers.  I am a REALLY good swimmer and

VERY fit.  I can swim better than anyone

you know, certainly stylistically, I am a bit old to race with a 21 year old. 

I have certificates.  I still obey the

rules and if I don’t, I expect to get shouted at or run over by a jet ski.

 

It

would be quite constructive if you organised a bit, and proposed some way to

distinguish good from bad drivers, and make the bad ones take training.  THAT would be positive.  But drivers who speed are quite often bad

drivers actually.  Stupid anyway.

Did you say something about drinking and driving, or did I miss it.  THAT

is something I have not done since I was maybe 35 or so.  Really

dumb.  People should be busted flat out, and licenses taken immediately. 

THOSE people are bad drivers, no matter how "good" they think they

are.

All the best to you and your motorcycle buddies.

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So how do you define a good driver ?

Lack of convictions  - not really, we all know it can and does happen to the most careful of drivers

Lack of accidents - again not convincing. An accident by definition is event that occurs unexpectedly and unintentionally so not necessarily the fault of a "Good Driver".

Courtesy to other road users - in my experience what passes for courtesy is often no more than a simple lack of observation. Take the "courteous" driver in front who stops to let someone out of a side turning . Thank you very much you say, well done, but when this happens on a 60mph road and you're behind "Mr Courtesy" with nothing at all following behind you, to me that is a lack of observation, completely unnecessary not to mention a significant DIS-courtesy to me.

Come on then, what do YOU think constitutes a Good Driver ? 

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[quote user="TreizeVents"]

And please don't go on about your driving certificates again. 

[/quote]

TV, I didn't actually mention my qualifications..........[:D]

if you want a list I'll pm them to you (it's interesting stuff ).......................[:D]

As regards drink/driving I would pull them out of their cars and put a bullet in the back of their heads. Have I ever done it, (drink & drive), no,  I don't even like the taste of alcohol. Give me a cup of tea or a coke anyday.

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[quote user="ErnieY"]

Come on then, what do YOU think constitutes a Good Driver ? 

[/quote]

Just a starter................this could be a very long thread

A good driver is someone who:

  • understands the risks of driving and takes steps to avoid them

  • thinks that driving is a serious task

  • looks out for others

  • understands and complies with the rules of the road

  • uses the skills of safe driving

  • respects the power of vehicles

  • always drives as safely and responsibly as possible
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FA, surely the best discussions on a forum end with one person who is palpably losing an argument, saying "you're wrong" to the other people in as insulting a way as possible, then flouncing off and not posting again in the same thread?  All this polite, pleasant logical argument is doing my head in...
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David ........interesting you look out for High Viz Jackets and ariels in unmarked cars ..........In 1976 I think it was ....durng the fuel crisis when in South Africa .....in order for the Police to get you for speeding ...not that they were bothered about you killing yourself .....you were wasting fuel  ! ... Much more important as there was a speed restriction to save it ......Posts were  at the side of the road  some distance apart ..........then the guy in the helicopter timed you between the posts ..........they then landed in front of you and  you got a fine on the spot  .... You could be the only car on the road for miles .....lets hope its not introduced here .....we will have to cut a hole in the roof of our cars ....
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[quote user="Bugbear"]

 No one, apart from TV,  likes the idea of clandestine cameras and police hiding in bushes, it somehow goes against the grain of 'british fair-play'.

[/quote]

Bugbear

Given that Claires post spoke of the possibility of removing warning signs on "French" roads is your reply indicative of a large number of "Brits" in your area[:D]

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[quote user="cooperlola"]FA, surely the best discussions on a forum end with one person who is palpably losing an argument, saying "you're wrong" to the other people in as insulting a way as possible, then flouncing off and not posting again in the same thread?  All this polite, pleasant logical argument is doing my head in...[/quote]

Muahahahahahahahaha!

It IS and it isn't, cooperlola. It's the ONLY way when you have rude comments posted about you. Why bother to argue with someone who can't make their point without being insulting, or snide, or nasty,  then accuses you of being childish when you return the compliment?

TBH, if someone argued with you like that down the local pub, they'd either get ignored by the whole group, or a slap..........or both[:D]

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I would like to add to Bugbear's excellent list, other than obeying the speed limits [;-)]

Driving with due care and respect for the comfort, psychologically and physically, of any passengers.

Driving with due care and respect for other road users, like bicycles and motorcycles, for example.

Driving with respect and care for pedestrians.

And how about this one.  You have to understand that my father, besides being in charge of Chrysler's high performance division, also trained and won on several occasions, the Mobilgas Economy Run (USA).

Driving with due care and respect for the environment, that is, conscious of the use of the earth's resources.

Driving as little as possible, when other methods of transport will do.

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[quote user="J.R."]

Bugbear

Given that Claires post spoke of the possibility of removing warning signs on "French" roads is your reply indicative of a large number of "Brits" in your area[:D]

[/quote]

It's starting to look that way, twelve couples with a eight mile radius, at the last count......................[:D]

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re: policemen with cameras hiding in bushes - you do get those too. I was caught by one last year. I was even given his name. They tend to lurk on the ouskirts of towns just when drivers think it's safe to speed up. The only way is to keep your eye on the speedo regularly. The car that I drive now has the speed lit up in large numbers which is hard to miss - though obviously I do forget even so. Pat.
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