The meaning of amber traffic lights.

[oakbri]

Can someone please clarify what amber means at traffic lights. I don't mean the flashing amber mode that some lights operate in at night, I mean amber in the normal mode of operation.

A couple of years ago I was driving with a french friend. As I came abeam some green lighs they turned amber. As I was already abeam the lights I continued through as you would in the UK. My friend tutted and said I had better not let the police catch me. I must admit I didn't listen to him.

Then, yesterday, I had to drive in Paris, something I do as rarely as possible. I was going up the Champs-Élysées and was about to enter the Place de l'Étoile. As I approached the final traffic light it turned to amber. I was no more than 3 feet in front of it and as the road was wet and a car was very close behind me I continued.

A police car immediately flashed me and issued me a fine. I am a bit sad as it is my first ever driving offence - anywhere. I am not a chancer and don't jump lights, nor do I speed up on an amber to make it, anyone who has ever driven round the Place de l'Étoile would know if you drove like that there your life expectancy would be quite short.

As I remember in the UK the lights meant as follows:

Red = Stop, Red/Amber = Prepare to move, Green = Go, Amber = if you are approaching the lights begin to slow down and stop or if you are on top of the lights continue if it is safe to do so. Maybe I am wrong as there was no written test when I did my licence, but that system has seen me have 20 years of driving with a clean licence.

So here in France do they operate a simple stop/go rule? If so why bother with amber at all. Is a three light system too complicated for them?

I have done a search on this forum and found 1 other post where soemone was done for driving through an amber light, but that's all.

Any information would be helpful.

[Bugsy]

Amber means STOP.

[Sunday Driver]

Code de la route Art R412-31:

Tout conducteur doit marquer l'arrêt devant un feu de signalisation jaune fixe, sauf dans le cas où, lors de l'allumage dudit feu, le conducteur ne peut plus arrêter son véhicule dans des conditions de sécurité suffisantes.

Le fait, pour tout conducteur, de contrevenir aux dispositions du présent article est puni de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la deuxième classe.

With all due respect, as a 'French' driver, you should know this already.......

 

[Chas]

[quote user="Bugbear"]Amber means STOP.[/quote]

.......unless you cannot do so safely --

Un feu jaune fixe signifie aux conducteurs de véhicules interdiction de franchir la

ligne d’effet du signal. Cette interdiction ne joue pas dans le cas où, à l’allumage du

feu jaune, le conducteur ne peut plus arrêter son véhicule dans des conditions de

sécurité suffisante avant la ligne d’effet du signal.

[oakbri]

You are right Sunday Driver

But I just assumed that as they have three colours they operate a three colour system, similar to the UK.

No wonder every car in Paris is full of dents if they have to slam the brakes on at an amber light. I think I prefer our way !!!

My mistake.

[Bugsy]

"if you cannot do so safely"

refers to the inability to stop safely due to road conditions (wet etc). It does not allow for driving through simply because the driver has failed to anticipate the change of signal by using a speed inappropriate for the potential change.

Lights on green for a long time on approach should register with the driver and preparations be made to stop safely.

That said, there is a very small margin when the vehicle is within a few metres of the line where trying to stop would be foolish. It is, however a very small margin.

It's all about anticipation.....................................

 

edit: having read oakbri's last comment. The same system applies in both the UK and France.     Look here

edited thanks to RobR

[nomoss]

Solely from observation, I had concluded :-

Amber = Accelerate

Red = Stop, provided the vehicle in front of you stops

[allanb]

I don't see any significant difference between the UK and French rules.  Both mean, in effect, that you must stop on amber unless it's too late to do so safely. 

Bugbear wrote "If you cannot do so safely" refers to the inability to stop safely due to road conditions (wet

etc).  I don't see where it says that it only refers to that.

My sympathy is all with the OP.

[Kitty]

How much was the fine? Was it painful?

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="allanb"]I don't see any significant difference between the UK and French rules.  Both mean, in effect, that you must stop on amber unless it's too late to do so safely. 

Bugbear wrote "If you cannot do so safely" refers to the inability to stop safely due to road conditions (wet etc).  I don't see where it says that it only refers to that.

My sympathy is all with the OP.
[/quote]

Only refers to what ? If you read both the above Allan, I think you'll see that we are both saying the same thing..but in a slightly different way.[:)]

[Rob Roy]

Bugbear wrote:

"Lights on red for a long time on approach should register with the driver and preparations be made to stop safely.

That said, there is a very small margin when the vehicle is within a few metres of the line where trying to stop would be foolish. It is, however a very small margin.

It's all about anticipation....................................."

OK but the OP said the lights were on Green as they approached.... Granted you also have to anticipate green lights changing, but you can't always go so slow that you can safely stop within a 3 ft approach, especially with a French driver up your a**e as is their custom.  

I also think they were a bit hard done by in getting a fine.

 

[Bugsy]

Flippin' eck, thats my mistake, I meant GREEN..

Well spotted that man......................................[:)][:)]

I personally didn't make any critisism of the OP, I just answered his question.

Like many things here the decision of the Gerndarmes is always right, whether we like it or not. I know of no-one who has ever successfully argued a point of traffic law with them and won.

[oakbri]

[quote user="Cathy"]

How much was the fine? Was it painful?

 

[/quote]

Cathy

The fine wasn't too bad, could do without right before christmas though.

As I said, the road was wet and at 3 feet I didn't feel it was safe to slam my brakes on. The knowledgeable officer thought otherwise.

To be fair to the Policeman he was very polite. He only realised I was English when he saw my licence and immediately switched to speaking English (which was much better than my French).

As he handed over my fine he asked me to sign in a box on his part of the form. Just as I was about to sign I read what it was for and it basically said I understood and agreed why I was beng punished, so I refused to sign. This caused him quite some hassle and he ended up calling all his colleagues. Eventually he admitted he couldn't make me sign and just gave me my fine. I hope I haven't opened a can of worms by not signing. I just didn't agree I had done anything wrong. I am not contesting it, the fine is already paid. I am still a bit grumpy about it though.

[Paul Bradford]

Hi OakBri,

Sorry to correct you, but an amber traffic light means stop at the stop line. You may only go on if you have crossed the stop line when the light changes to amber. Red/amber also means stop. When I did my Driver Training I was taught: 'If the lights are green when you approach, assume they will change before you get there, that way you'll be prepared.'

Regards

Paul

[oakbri]

[quote user="Paul Bradford"]

Hi OakBri,

Sorry to correct you, but an amber traffic light means stop at the stop line. You may only go on if you have crossed the stop line when the light changes to amber. Red/amber also means stop. When I did my Driver Training I was taught: 'If the lights are green when you approach, assume they will change before you get there, that way you'll be prepared.'

Regards

Paul

[/quote]

Paul

I agree with you. I do anticipate. It is also quite easy to do on long stretches of road with only 1 set of lights. If anyone has ever driven up the Champs Elysees you will know there are dozens of sets, spaced less than 100 metres apart, and they don't appear sequenced to each other. It makes anticipation "interesting".

Saying you can go on amber only if it changes after you cross the line doesn't apply in most cases as the lights are often situated right on the line, which I think is why you often have the mini repeater lights at road level as when you pull up to the line on a red light you can no longer see the main lights.

Reading the UK highway code makes me feel my own interpretation of UK rules is correct, i.e amber means stop at the line unless it would require an emergency stop to do so.

Anyway, I have learnt my lesson and will adopt the French way from now on. I have noticed a huge increase in the amount of Police on the roads this last week. I guess the end of the year is approaching and they obviously work to a budget, so an end of year money grab helps them balance the books.

Paul

Just to add. I know Red/Amber means stop, but it also means pepare to move as I wrote in my original post. This is another thing I miss, I think it is good to have a system to tell you to be prepared as the lights are about to go green. As you know french lights go straight from red to green and if you have been foolish enough to put your car in neutral while waiting and spend more than about 2 microseconds putting it into gear after the lights go green you are often abused with a chorus of beeps from behind. Well in Paris anyway.

[Phil & Pat]

OK, an amber light means stop, no argument with that.  But in practical terms, what can we do?

Approaching a green light, and being aware that it might turn amber probably means that you will lift off with the right foot and slow down a little, perhaps even cover the brake pedal.  But if you don't actually come to a stop for a green light there must be some minimum speed you can reasonably expect to approach a green.  The Code de la route admits that for stopping a vehicle there is a reaction time and a braking distance.  It could be argued that by anticipating the amber light your reaction time is reduced, but it still takes some time for the eye to see the amber light and for the brain to tell your right foot to get over to the brake pedal and press.  Then the tarmac, brakes and tyres take over (and possibly the ABS).

Where is this leading?  Well if someone can propose a minimum speed at which it is reasonable to approach a green light (say in a 50kph limit) we can calculate the absolute minimum distance required to stop the car.  If the car is any closer to the line than this distance you have no hope of stopping before it.

For any speed above a couple of kph I would doubt it can be done in the 3 feet or whatever was mentioned in the original post.  If the police want to sit by the traffic lights and wait, there are times when they are going to catch out even the most alert and defensive driver on an amber light.

[oakbri]

Phil & Pat

What you say makes sense. The problem is that if you start slowing down too much before each traffic light you will only infuriate the driver behind you, and Paris drivers are not the most considerate drivers in the world. In the end you risk abuse or even worse the driver making dangerous overtakes to get past you.

I don't think there is a right answer for this. The police can take your money with impunity, much like the speed cameras in the UK. I think that is the answer.

Last week a friend of mine was fined 90 euros for not stopping long enough at a stop sign. The policeman admitted he did stop but not for 3 seconds. Which is pretty rediculous even if it is the rules.

On the point of stop signs, they are springing up everywhere. It takes a lot of energy to bring a car to a complete standstill and then start moving again, multiply that by the number of cars and stop signs and you can see how much they are helping with greenhouse gases. It is a shame when a simple giveway would do.

On the road out of my village 2 stop signs were put up this summer. The first gives priority to a gravel track leading up to a locked gate which goes to a rail line. The second gives priority to an ungated field. That one even has the locals scratching their heads. I am sure the farmer that exits that field once a week is happy to know he has the right of way over the hundreds of cars that must stop for him each day.

[Sunday Driver]

Sounds like the Paris police have mellowed somewhat over the years.

My first driving experience in France was in the 60's as a student when I lived in my French girlfriend's flat in the Paris latin quarter.  In those days, the town speed limit was 60kph and it was quite something to go belting down the side streets in her old Renault 8.  There was often a policeman standing at junctions, and when I remarked on this, she said "whatever you do, if they blow their whistle, STOP!" 

"What for", I asked.

"Because they can shoot at you if you don't......."  [:-))]

 

 

[oakbri]

Sadly nowadays they are probably scared people will shoot back !!!

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="oakbri"]

... he did stop but not for 3 seconds.

[/quote]

That's a good one, even the police do not always stop on Stop signs around here.  Anyone else heard of the 3 second rule?

[oakbri]

Phil & Pat

I did an airport driving course I remember the instructor saying "you must stop at all the stop signs for a count of three, the same as on normal roads"

It's the only time I heard the rule stated until my friend was caught last week. The police were posted at several locations around Orly airport and were pulling over dozens upon dozens of cars for not stopping. At 90 euros a time its nice work if you can get it, which is why I suspect end of year budgets etc etc.