Problem with person "en tort" signing 'constat d'accident'

[CBC]

The story:

• guy drove into the back of me Tuesday evening

• on speaking to him I could clearly smell alcohol and told him so, he said he'd been on the road since 03.00 and was tired

• he said we 'could' do a constat, but couldn't we come to arrangement for him to pay for damage directly ...

• as a result of above, I put off signing the constat - foolish, I realise

• I didn't call the police ref. the alcohol - would they have come out? ( I was unhurt)

• rang him next day to say we needed to do constat for insurance, knowing he wouldn't want to pay €1,000 or so quoted by Ford for repair

• he delivers food and "leaves between 03.00 - 05.00 and is not home before 22.00" (except this week when he hit me at 20.30), never knows from one day to the next where he'll be or when he'll be back.  Weekends?  He works them too ........... 

• next day called and left messages on mobile and with wife to arrangement to do constat, not surprised that no return call received
• Friday called from different number, spoke to him on mobile: "I'm in *******",  he said, "So am I", I said, "I'm driving all day", he said ......... I said he could call when he got home, whatever time - we live in the same village.  NO CALL.

• he acknowledges he is "en tort", but accuses me of braking hard and causing the accident - not true and irrelevant anyway
• the gendarmerie advised I should 'threaten' him that I will 'porter plainte', but would that have any real effect?
• I have his business card with name of what I assume to be employer (local), but van was not marked with their name

In perspective, the car is not seriously damaged, but no longer in the perfect condition it was (only 2 years old), fault is not mine.  I am unhurt, but frustrated that I made a mistake and that the guy is trying to avoid meeting, though I do know that the company is known to work people long hours.  Do I contact the 'employer' and advise of situation and of alcohol or tell him I will at least?

Any suggestions, or do I have to lose my no-claims?

Thanks in anticipation

CBC

[Sunday Driver]

Getting the moral of the story out of the way first:

That's the whole reason for the constat.....[;-)]

Now to the constructive bit....

I'd make a complaint to the gendarmerie so that a formal record of the accident is created.  Ask them to check who the vehicle is registered to - if the carte grise is in the name of the company, then contact them because they will be the insured party.  You should also advise your insurance company - I think you'll find this is required.

The driver has already claimed it was your fault (this is relevent to your case, because in the absence of a signed constat, it's your word against his), so you need to protect yourself in case he comes back and says he was injured in the accident.

 

[CBC]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

I'd make a complaint to the gendarmerie so that a formal record of the accident is created.  Ask them to check who the vehicle is registered to - if the carte grise is in the name of the company, then contact them because they will be the insured party. 

[/quote]

I was going to ask them this yesterday, but I was under the impression that they would not give me this information freely?

Many thanks for your suggestions.

[Scooby]

Just out of interest - is there any presumption of guilt on the part of the person driving into the rear-end of another car in France?  i.e. that he must have been driving too close or he would have been able to stop in time?

[CBC]

Yes, if you are hit from behind, the person who hits you is automatically responsible, whatever the reason for the incident (multiple pile-up, etc, etc).  He knows it as well as I do which is why he's saying "vous avez fait un coup de frein, mais c'est moi qui est en tort".  Let's not forget that he was driving under the influence .........

[Ron Avery]

At this stage all you can do is fill in a constat amiable with all the details completed as far as you know them of the accident and other driver plus your details, plan etc.  Clearly show that he had hit you from behind, showing as many details as you can including the reason why you braked, turning, person crossing etc.  Take a copy.  Send the whole thing to the company that owns the vehicle for completion and ask thenm to send your copy back to you . All you have to do is state the facts, it is up to the insurance companies to decide who is to blame.  However, do not assume that this will not be treated as 50-50.  The rules in France are not the same as in the UK in that 99% of all rear end crashes are the fault of the person who hit you, that is not the case at all and any arquements will quickly lead to a 50-50 solution if you are not careful.

[CBC]

Thanks for your comments.  At this stage I don't know who owns the vehicle, I did ask, but he was not clear.  Will the gendarmerie give me that information?  Your 'do not assume less than 50-50' comment worries me:  myinsurance company's guide to the constat clearly indicates that in the event of vehicle B striking vehicle A to the rear in the "véhicules circulant dans le même sens et sur la même chausée", vehicle B is 100% responsible.  I thought it was also in the 'code de la route'?   Thanks again.

 

[Sunday Driver]

By failing to maintain a safe distance behind a vehicle so as to avoid a collision in the event of heavy braking or a sudden stop, the other driver has breached the code de la route (Art R412-12).  It attracts a 135€ fine, three penalty points and a driving ban up to three years.  I expect the question of insurance liability will reflect this.

No wonder he wanted to settle it unofficially....[;-)]

 

[Ron Avery]

Yes you are correct in that vehicles in the same lane on the same road are deemed to be 100% responsible, as long as your constat shows that, but you didn't say on what type of road you had the accident.  If there is any mention of different lanes or changing lanes etc that changes things completely. 

As a matter of interest, what does your constat guide say about what happens when the other party refuses to complete the form, one guide I saw says that if the other person does not want to complete a constat, call the gendarmes.

If you do not have enough of the details of the other vehicle to complete a constat I would go to the Gendarmerie with what you have, but its a bit late to try and prove driving under the influence but you could mention it as a reason why you believe the other driver did not provide details at the time or complete a constat, I don't think that you are legally bound to complete or perhaps sign a constat but you are required to provide details of your address and insurance.

[CBC]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Yes you are correct in that vehicles in the same lane on the same road are deemed to be 100% responsible, as long as your constat shows that, but you didn't say on what type of road you had the accident.  If there is any mention of different lanes or changing lanes etc that changes things completely. 

[/quote]

Ref. the road, narrow-ish, unlit, country road about a kilometre or so from each of our respective houses (so one we both know well), just after a bend .......

I have vehicle registration and dentifying details (stickers etc) of the vehicle, his name, business card, home address and various phone numbers, but not his insurance details.  I stupidly did not insist on seeing the latter, going with his 'we live in the same village' etc, etc, reassurance. 

Would a text message asking, for the final time, for a meeting plus 'if you don't I shall be obliged to "porter plainte"' be a sensible course of action, or does it have to be lettre recommandée (or other)?

Thanks.

 

[Bugsy]

No help with this particular incident but its worth mentioning the value of carrying a camera or photo-phone for taking photographs at the scene (a picture worth a thousand words etc).

Good luck with this CBC.

Gary.

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="Coolbikerchick"][quote user="Sunday Driver"]

I'd make a complaint to the gendarmerie so that a formal record of the accident is created.  Ask them to check who the vehicle is registered to - if the carte grise is in the name of the company, then contact them because they will be the insured party. 

[/quote]

I was going to ask them this yesterday, but I was under the impression that they would not give me this information freely?

Many thanks for your suggestions.

[/quote]

Had a similar situation a while ago.  Went to the gendarmerie with the registraton number of the other vehicle (from a witness - accident was in a car park) and they gave me the owner's name, address and phone number, no questions asked.

Good luck.

[CBC]

Mild shock caused. me a bit trouble with my fingers and thumbs and complete brain blank as how to use the camera on my mobile! 

Thanks for your support.

P.S.  Good job I wasn't on my bike, eh? 

[Ron Avery]

EDIT

Would a text message asking, for the final time, for a meeting plus 'if you don't I shall be obliged to "porter plainte"' be a sensible course of action, or does it have to be lettre recommandée (or other)?

No.  You must go to the gendarmerie, what are you going to do when this bloke denies all knowledge of the incident?

 

Taking a picture would not have done any good anyway apart from a memory jogger for filling in the constat and details of the car that hit you.  The idea of the constat is to record what happened not who was to blame although you can state that if you wish on the reverse and attach photos but its not like the UK claim form as you know.

Photographs will be taken by your insurance assessor to record the damage when they do their inspection.  In lieu of the constat you should contact your insurer anyway to get details of approved repairers and tell them where the car can be inspected.

[CBC]

Hello Ron

Thanks for your continued input.  I have already advised my insurance agent and she has noted the situation.  Ref. the gendarmerie, as I have already outlined the incident to them and they have told me to "frighen" him with threat of porter-plainte, what do I do when I go back to them?  Give his details etc?  He can still deny all knowledge, can't he? 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 

Taking a picture would not have done any good anyway apart from a memory jogger for filling in the constat and details of the car that hit you. 

[/quote]

Sorry Ron, but you are wrong.

Photographs would show the position of the vehicles after impact, the type of road and weather conditions at the time and any other aspect relevant to the accident. They are immensely valuable should any dispute occurs at a later date.

That applies wherever you are, not just in the UK, indeed, it's not unknown for french insurers to ask if any photographs are available.

Gary.

[Ron Avery]

Gary I accept in the combatative world of car accidents and insurance in the UK all the evidence that you can get is recommended because the system is different, you go home and sort out all the evidence and submit a claim form as does the other party and your insurance companies fight for months over who was to blame because they have two different versions of the same event.

In France, you jointly fill out a constat (if you are able)  **, AFAIR there is nowhere on the constat to record the type of road or weather conditions. The constat holds great sway with insurers and the courts. It is a basic record of details and a plan of the accident with drawings for damaged areas to be recorded.  You cannot attach a photograph to it at a later date as "the plan" because it would not be vaild as it was not part of the copy of the constat, the other party has unless you had a polaroid and did copies,  and you cannot change a constat once it has been signed the two ciopies are exchanged and compared.

 As I said you can use a photo to show final posititons and send it with a letter of explanation with the constat but if that evidence does not entirely agree with the signed constat you are wasting your time.

 

**EDIT  In the event of an injury accident, the Gendarmes complete the constat, there is a version for this

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Coolbikerchick"]

Hello Ron

Thanks for your continued input.  I have already advised my insurance agent and she has noted the situation.  Ref. the gendarmerie, as I have already outlined the incident to them and they have told me to "frighen" him with threat of porter-plainte, what do I do when I go back to them?  Give his details etc?  He can still deny all knowledge, can't he? 

[/quote] 

 Sorry missed the bottom bit, If you have his address, do as I suggested earlier, fill in a constat and sent it or take it to him.  Give him 3 days to complete it or do it while you wait if you take it to him.  Make it clear that you will make it official if he does not return the completed constat.  He should have no problem completing the constat as it does not apportion blame, the plan should show clearly that he was to blame. He can write what he wants on the inside of the copy that he sends to his insurer but it will not alter what is written on the front.  You could take a picture of his vehicle if you are able in case he denies any knowledge of the accident now, but he is unlikely to have given you his details etc if an accident never occurred is he?

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

there is nowhere on the constat to record the type of road or weather conditions.

**EDIT  In the event of an injury accident, the Gendarmes complete the constat, there is a version for this

[/quote]

Well, you're half right, and without being pedantic, Section 14 on the back of the form asks for weather conditions (english version)

Bear in mind that an awful lot of forum members will be carrying that form and not the french version.

Guess what the gendarmes do at the scene of accidents.....................  

I repeat that it is, imho, a good idea, if you are able of course, to take extensive photographs at the scene of any accident you are unfortunate to be involved in.

I'm being summoned.......................................for   

 

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

Unlike UK accident claims which are usually completed some time after the event, the constat is a contemporaneous note of events written 'at the time' and signed by both parties.  That makes it a legal record of the accident and admissable in law in the same way as a policeman's notebook.

There is no provision on the French constat for recording the weather conditions because they are irrelevent.  It two vehicles collide, then one of them has breached the code de la route (priorité, failure to maintain proper distance, etc) regardless of the road/weather conditions.  The drawing which shows the position of the vehicles and the signage is sufficient to establish liability.

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

There is no provision on the French constat for recording the weather conditions because they are irrelevent. 

[/quote]

Diesel spillage on wet roads springs to mind, irrelevent ?

not if you're on two wheels.........................  

[Sunday Driver]

Not in the context under discussion, which is the constat amiable - a document of fact relative to an accident involving two vehicles.

If we come off our bikes due to a diesel spill, then we make a  normal damage claim rather than complete a constat.

 

 

[Bugsy]

Accepting that, not sure about if the bike ended up sliding into another vehicle though.

Similarly, what about 'black ice', surely that could be deemed as something relevant.

Example: Your car is parked on the side of the road. A vehicle comes round the corner and with no warning, hits a small patch of black ice and slides into your car.

There is no way in the world that the black ice in that scenario is irrelevant. I would go further and say that one or other of the owners in that situation would mention it somewhere.

Gary.

[AnOther]

So can you fill in 2 CA's, one in French which presumably the other party, if French, will have, and one in English.

Obviously if one's French isn't up to fully understanding what has been written you're possibly at a significant disadvantage.

By filling in an English one too you at least level the playing field a little. Would the other driver be obliged to sign it ?

Incidentally, I have a few spare copies of English CA's if anyone want's one in return for a stamped addressed envelope. PM me.

The only caveat is that I will only give them to people with legallly registered cars so "wrigglers" please do not bother asking. If you're not legal and have a prang you're in bigger trouble than an English CA can possibly get you out of anyway [:D]

[Ron Avery]

Gary

Surely if you skid ie lose control of your vehicle and hit another car that is parked then that is your fault, nobody else's.  I accept that black ice etc diesel spills etc can occur without warning and you could be driving/riding at a speed you believe to be conducive with the prevailing conditions and still skid but whose fault is it if you lose control?  Certainly not the owner of the parked car.  If you had the accident you described who do you think is to blame if there was black ice?

The road conditions are not recorded on the front page of the constat, Why? Because as SD has stated the constat is not about apportioning blame, that is why its called the constat aimable.  All that is relevant is what happened, whose fault it was is for you to decide,  the insurance companies do it from the information supplied.   That is how it works in France, like it or not.