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Icy roads and local authority liability


oliveau
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We had a recent situation locally where it rained at 8.30 on frozen roads, turning some roads into skating rinks. Of course there were no end of accidents because the roads weren't gritted.

I've never seen gritters in action here on the roads, but I just wonder if the local authority can be held liable?

Peter

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Listening to Autoroute FM the other day they were talking about responsibility for accidents caused by icy roads.

The spokesman from the insurance group was quite clear that slippy roads in winter are a known risk and it was the responsibility of the driver to take account of such risks. Any accident would be his fault with any consequential impact on premiums. If two cars were involved then it would normally be assumed to be 50% / 50% responsibility.

 

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This was our 'main' road last year.

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/RoadinWinter.jpg[/IMG]

salt, who needs salt.

France has more kilometres of road than any other country in the EU, with a total of 965,916km of local, secondary and main roads and motorways.
Now that would take a lot of salt I think.

.

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[quote user="oliveau"]

We had a recent situation locally where it rained at 8.30 on frozen roads, turning some roads into skating rinks. Of course there were no end of accidents because the roads weren't gritted.

[/quote]

No, there were no end of accidents because of driving too fast in the prevailing conditions.

And please don't advocate bringing  the "who can I sue?" culture (sic) to France.

John

not

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Not quite true actually. Everybody was driving extremely slowly, but still no end of cars ending up in the ditches etc because the road surface was so treacherous. And I wasn't advocating litigation, merely enquiring as the the local authority's obligations.

Peter

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[quote user="oliveau"]

We had a recent situation locally where it rained at 8.30 on frozen roads, turning some roads into skating rinks. Of course there were no end of accidents because the roads weren't gritted.

I've never seen gritters in action here on the roads, but I just wonder if the local authority can be held liable?

Peter

[/quote]

Very strange: I worked for a few years in the Lozère, which is the least densly populated Départment in France, and the roads were gritted/ snow ploughed or what ever before dawn...

Of course these were the principal ones; nobody would be daft enough to drive on minor roads in those conditions .

What you say reminds me of what is often said down here in the Languedoc when someone is killed because they have driven into a tree:  that the avenues of Plane trees along side the roads are responsible for the accident!

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[quote user="groslard"]

.............................. nobody would be daft enough to drive on minor roads in those conditions .

[/quote]

[:D][:D]

Its not a problem provided you have the right sort of vehicle, properly prepared and (without sounding pompous) with a driver who has a skill level necessary to deal with the situation.

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I wouldn't disagree with that, but I wasn't thinking of snowy conditions, but rather of black ice. That is, there was a prediction of rain showers at dawn, and the overnight temperatures had been -7 for 10 days, so should the roads be gritted in anticipation of black ice? I don't think snow chains would have saved any of the cars that went off the road here last Saturday. Apparently one car hit a telegraph pole, resulting in the death of a baby.

Peter

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[quote user="oliveau"]

That is, there was a prediction of rain showers at dawn, and the overnight temperatures had been -7 for 10 days, so should the roads be gritted in anticipation of black ice? I don't think snow chains would have saved any of the cars that went off the road here last Saturday. Apparently one car hit a telegraph pole, resulting in the death of a baby.

[/quote]

So the drivers should have anticipated black ice. The driver, not the council, killed the baby.

John

not

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[quote user="oliveau"]

Not quite true actually. Everybody was driving extremely slowly, but still no end of cars ending up in the ditches etc because the road surface was so treacherous. And I wasn't advocating litigation, merely enquiring as the the local authority's obligations.

Peter

[/quote]

As I wrote, driving too fast. If you are not advocating litigation why use the word "liability".

John

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[quote user="Iceni"]

So the drivers should have anticipated black ice. The driver, not the council, killed the baby.

[/quote]

You run out of your 'happy' pills again John [:)]

Driving on Black Ice is one of the hardest situations a motorist will ever have to deal with (spilt diesel comes a close second). Anticipation of the conditions and corrective action can reduce the danger of the situation but it cannot remove the fact that there is zero traction available to the driver. Cadence braking or even an ABS system are of limited use in these situations. As John so eloquently put it [:)], anticipate and slow down.

Be careful out there........

 

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"Very strange: I worked for a few years in the Lozère, which is the least densly populated Départment in France, and the roads were gritted/ snow ploughed or what ever before dawn...
Of course these were the principal ones; nobody would be daft enough to drive on minor roads in those conditions ."

That's a bit tricky when you have to use the minor roads to get out.

Yesterday morning was very treacherous around here. Lots of black ice and cars sliding around all over the place - we had an appointment we had to keep about 10 kms from home and saw several accidents, one of which had just happened where a van had rolled over and finished on its side. The gendarmes and pompiers were in attendance when we got to the scene, and we were turned back as the road was blocked.

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We have a house in 31 and we were told that the roads arwe gritted more often than in the neighbouring department 32. The reason being that 31 had more funds available due to the Airbus factory at Toulouse.

Also wonder if gritting lorries have some marvellous traction device that is not available to other vehicles - i.e. they can drive on black ice whereas others cannot.

Perhaps one of the problems for drivers is the equipment on modern cars:

Power steering - this can reduce the 'feel' of the road, i.e. the feel that the wheels do not have good adhesion to the road

ABS - no need to brake until the lat moment and we will stop in the minimum distance instead of, especially with drum brakes allowing plenty of time to brake and also being very wary of the brakes locking up

Efficient heating (also heaters no longer being asn optional extra) - lovely and warm in here not a bad day at all

The outside temperature gauge - quite a novelty but how much regard is taken of it.

Tyres - modern tyres normally offer excellent grip in the dry but not all offer much in the wet, so choosing tyres can be important or does getting the cheapest count the most. There are specific winter tyres that you can get but how many of us have two sets, one for Winter and one for the rest of the year?

Perhaps as well choosing the route can be important. Routes that are largely tree covered can mean that the road stays colder longer as the sun does not get to it so these could be more hazardous.

And of course speed - if you are going too fast and start to slip then you may well end up in a ditch whereas a little slower might mean that you can 'steer' to the verge where there might be more traction to prevent an accident.

Paul

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[quote user="P2"]Tyres - modern tyres normally offer excellent grip in the dry but not all offer much in the wet, so choosing tyres can be important or does getting the cheapest count the most. There are specific winter tyres that you can get but how many of us have two sets, one for Winter and one for the rest of the year?[/quote]

We do, as we would be stranded most days in winter without them.

As I type this, the outside temp is  -8ºC and I am about to drive to the village...

The pompiers came round yesterday for their annual calendar round and I told them I hoped not to have to see them until the end of 2008! [:D]

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[quote user="lacote0_0"]What became of studded tyres? Banned on the autoroutes in Switzerland, limited as to speed in France, with a sign on the rear of the car, but they seem to have completely disappeared.
[/quote]

On the road, studded tyres are primarily for use on packed snow and are pretty useless on ice, as the studs would wear out in just a few kilometres.

 

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I spent 2 years living in the Baltic States of the former Soviet Union. Studded tyres are mandatory in the winter, then again they don't have any motorways so high speed driving not an issue, but for snowy conditions they are unbeatable. It was amazing to live in a country that could get over half a metre of snow overnight and everything operates as normal the next day. Not like the good old UK, 2cm of snow means buses and trains stop, schools close etc etc.
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[quote user="gottogetoutoffhere"]I agree totaly that it is the drivers choice whether to drive or not the council do not need to grit the roads it is not them who make the ice sue your lord and master[/quote]A tad simplistic don't you think, oh that life were that easy.

Sometimes it may not be a question of choice, medical emergency for instance ?

 

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